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Absolutely this. Marth doesn't have a true ledge-stall like some other characters, but you can sometimes throw off your opponent by retreating ledge-hop into Fair followed by Dolphin Slash to regrab ledge. Your next option will probably be to ledge-hop nair/fair onto stage since you gained invincibility by grabbing the ledge. You can sometimes see M2K doing this on FD if the opponent refuses to give him room. You just really have to watch out for the ramen noodles. Probably wouldn't stall this way more than twice before getting back on stage and no more than 2-3 times per game if you can help it.
To be fair, how many characters have a "true ledge-stall"? Off the top of my head, the only one I know is Sheik provided she Shino Stalls perfectly.
Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure Fox has an Up-B perfect invincibility stall but the timing for the inputs is ridiculous at around 1-3 frames. Sometimes spacies can also get away with side-b stall shenanigans but the invincibility doesn't cover the whole action so they usually only do it once before hopping off. I'm sure there are 1-2 more than I can't name off the top of my head because they're useful to some of the more obscure characters.
(I'm only quoting you as a way of responding, not the Fox thing). But yeah, that's rather my point. Perfect Shino Stalls are the only guaranteed ledge invincibility that I know of. And that literally requires you to know to fall for like 4 frames before using Vanish. Something like that. It's rather ridiculous. Either way, mix up your ledge options, and try to force them to back off with a ledge hop fair -> dolphin slash or waveland depending on your spacing. Also, if you're not confident that you have enough time/space to waveland or dolphin slash, you could try air dodging up and towards the ledge (see Mango). If you do it properly, you shouldn't require nearly the open time that you do to Dolphin Slash back. An open, quick mind is seriously important to this game.
Mewtwo has an almost garunteed Ledge Stall using his Teleport. (I think. Not that this has anything to do with Marth.)
True. I believe I remember seeing Taj using it in his stellar match against Armada at Gensis 2.
Marth does in fact have a true invincible ledge-stall: the hax dash. In addition, you can regrab ledge immediately after fair if you fair quickly enough (no up-b required). If you depend on up-b to regrab ledge, a good opponent will punish a missed (or cced/shielded) fair by grabbing ledge and edge hogging you.
Yeah, I realized after posting that Marth is actually capable of flat-out getting onto the ledge (or regrabbing it) if you do out, Y, and fair almost immediately. It's really useful for useful. As far as the hax dash goes... yeah that's kinda crazy, but it's useflu to know that it exists.
Is there really any need to be so techincal with Marth though? He seems to be a character that uses the fundamentals of smash more, than actual techs, like fox and falco, who have stuff like waveshining and multishining.
Um, not always. I'd say that it's actually a really risky attack because he loses his invincibility before the attack gets off. I'm not saying it's a bad attack, but it's gotta be used sparingly. Anyway, if they're looking for a punish off of getup aerial, you could just pull and M2K and tap in towards the stage and use the normal getup because of the overlap time with the invincibility and movement.
You forgot some of the best ones:
Those are excellent ideas. I think some of us forget that those are options, though. My only little note on that message, though, is regarding the ledgehopped counter. If you don't have inwards momentum sufficient enough to put you on the edge, it'll end up being more like an extra 7% damage to your opponent before you SD.
Definitely this. Counter can be an extremely useful clutch move, but it leaves you super open if they don't do anything. Sometimes, however, it's your only option for stopping your opponent. I know my main Counter time is when a Sheik is attempting to seal the deal with a fair when I'm without my second jump or enough space to beat her out with my own fair.
Against spacy pressure? Have you mastered the coveted Counter Oos?
I am a huge user of the counter out of shield.
What's your secret? I've tried before but can never quite get it... always end up using a spotdodge.
Eh, that's not really needed. Just a little bit of practice gets a consistent analogue jump in. I think counter in general is low risk/reward in most situations, but to each their own I guess.
Get used to doing out of shield options against spacy pressure in general. WD oos and fair oos primarily, but up-b out of shield has some uses. Once you are comfortable timing your jump after the shine but not before the shieldstun ends, you will be a proficient user of counter oos.
I can WD OoS and I'm fairly sure fair OoS won't be too tough to master, though I've never tried it. Dolphin Slash OoS definitely has some uses, that's something else for me to practice. So for the Counter OoS just wait for the small gap in between the shine and shieldstun and seize it?
Oh, my bad. Sorry, the wording was a little odd. Thanks, I'll practice that.
Youre right of course you wouldnt want to use it very often
I wouldn't say a jab because it doesn't have very many follow ups. An ftilt would be a pretty good idea for gaining some of the stage back for yourself, though. A grab is definitely a good idea, though. Depending on their distance, you might wanna start up a dash and then JC grab them. Probably back throw after that so you've got most of the stage all of a sudden instead of it belonging to them.
Yeah, shield DI isn't a bad idea. Alternately, you might be able to dtilt before they begin their bair, or utilt them before they finish their input. What I would suggest, though, is letting yourself get pushed off the first time. Once you see their initial reaction, use the counsel get up again. Human nature states that, if something works once, we'll almost always do it again. Look into the Einstellung Effect for more details. Anyway, knowing what they'll do to react to your normal get up, beat them out in the micro game and hit them first. Not having too much experience with this, I can't guarantee it will work, but psychology states it should.The problem with jab is that you risk getting crouch cancel d-smashed. A lot of players, when they see you get up, will try to dsmash you. And typically that is accompanied by a crouch cancel input as well. It could be useful for stuffing someone trying to run in and grab you though.
When I do regular get up, I usually just shield and then wavedash out of shield forward if they give me respect and back off. Usually they back air my shield though, and I'm forced to grab the ledge again because of the shield push.
Edit: I should start shield DIing in on those.
