Glass Cannon?

[BlastLine99]

Can someone tell me where the misconception that Mewtwo is a "glass cannon" came from? Everything about his playstyle and moveset points at his role as a defense-based character. Is it just from people spending little time with the character, or just because most players seem to want every character in the game to rushdown-focused?

 

[SafCar]

It may be in terms of how much power vs. how light he is. He dies fairly early, FCSB/Fair/Bthrow/Uthrow can kill early, and he has gimmicks that allow him to land said moves or get punished trying (Disable, Confusion). It's looking from an early viewpoint imo. He's more of a wooden wall due to the holes in his defenses (confusion's startup, lack of a dual-sided Dsmash, etc.)

 

[BlastLine99]

It may be in terms of how much power vs. how light he is. He dies fairly early, FCSB/Fair/Bthrow/Uthrow can kill early, and he has gimmicks that allow him to land said moves or get punished trying (Disable, Confusion). It's looking from an early viewpoint imo. He's more of a wooden wall due to the holes in his defenses (confusion's startup, lack of a dual-sided Dsmash, etc.)

I guess I could understand that for the first ten minutes of playing him, but you'd think people would have noticed how better he was at defending after playing him for a while. It just goes to show how little effort a lot of players will actually put into studying a new character, especially when that character doesn't do the all the work for them.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

It may be in terms of how much power vs. how light he is. He dies fairly early, FCSB/Fair/Bthrow/Uthrow can kill early, and he has gimmicks that allow him to land said moves or get punished trying (Disable, Confusion). It's looking from an early viewpoint imo. He's more of a wooden wall due to the holes in his defenses (confusion's startup, lack of a dual-sided Dsmash, etc.)

Pretty much this. It's not about whether or not he's rushing you down, it's about how early he can kill vs how early he is killed.

Being so light (second only to jiggs iirc), Mewtwo is killed fairly early by most of the cast, but on the other hand, he can net kills pretty easily on any character around 70-80% and he has a huge list of kill options 110+%

Edit: Again, it's not about how you play him, M2 is clearly a defensive style character, but he gets solid early kills on punishes and set ups. He also dies early if you fail to defend adequately.

 

[BlastLine99]

Pretty much this. It's not about whether or not he's rushing you down, it's about how early he can kill vs how early he is killed.

Being so light (second only to jiggs iirc), Mewtwo is killed fairly early by most of the cast, but on the other hand, he can net kills pretty easily on any character around 70-80% and he has a huge list of kill options 110+%

Edit: Again, it's not about how you play him, M2 is clearly a defensive style character, but he gets solid early kills on punishes and set ups. He also dies early if you fail to defend adequately.

Still, it greatly annoys me. Having everyone call him a glass cannon only promotes the general public's lack of understanding of the character, which can hurt their ability to play Mewtwo effectively. It would be like insisting that Robin is a distance character only and has no use at close range.

A Glass Cannon refers to something or someone which goes for an all-out offensive strategy, relying on speed and strength while giving no regards to defensive options (and almost always not even having any). At this moment in time, I can't say that any character in Smash fits into that style.

My point is, ignorant assumptions can make it next to impossible for a player to be successful with a character, especially when they are heading the advice of other misinformed players. A similar thing used to happen to me in Brawl, when I kept insisting that I could play Link like a swordfighter in the same manner that I could with Marth.

 

[Metallinatus]

Everything about his playstyle and moveset points at his role as a defense-based character.

That's EXACTLY why lol
he is very powerful and can get quite early kills (canon), but his weight makes him die even earlier (glass), which is why you must play defensively to make good use of the character (glass canon).
Simple, no?

 

[BlastLine99]

That's EXACTLY why lol
he is very powerful and can get quite early kills (canon), but his weight makes him die even earlier (glass), which is why you must play defensively to make good use of the character (glass canon).
Simple, no?

No, because it implies that Mewtwo is supposed to rush in for the kill, which in most cases is a death trap for him. As I stated earlier, "Glass Canon" is a style all about offense, not defense. It is a mislabeling of the character, which causes problems for player new to Mewtwo. A better way of looking at Mewtwo would be to call him a "bait and punish" character, because when playing as Mewtwo, you typically want to let your opponent make the first move while you pressure them from a distance.

 

[Metallinatus]

No, because it implies that Mewtwo is supposed to rush in for the kill, which in most cases is a death trap for him. As I stated earlier, "Glass Canon" is a style all about offense, not defense. It is a mislabeling of the character, which causes problems for player new to Mewtwo. A better way of looking at Mewtwo would be to call him a "bait and punish" character, because when playing as Mewtwo, you typically want to let your opponent make the first move while you pressure them from a distance.

You don't need to play Glass Canons aggressively, being a Glass Canon means literally, that the character can be really good, but he is high risk high reward which means that you must not make mistakes when playing him for him to be really good....
Whether you want to play him more risky or more defensively does not affect the status of the character (using him will be risky one way or the other).
And again, being "bait and punish" with him (or having any other playstyle) does not affect whether or not he is a Glass Canon.

He can kill super early with a Disable into charged Up Smash, he can die super early with a Foward Smash at the edge, he is a Glass Canon.

 

[BlastLine99]

You don't need to play Glass Canons aggressively, being a Glass Canon means literally, that the character can be really good, but he is high risk high reward which means that you must not make mistakes when playing him for him to be really good....
Whether you want to play him more risky or more defensively does not affect the status of the character (using him will be risky one way or the other).
And again, being "bait and punish" with him (or having any other playstyle) does not affect whether or not he is a Glass Canon.

He can kill super early with a Disable into charged Up Smash, he can die super early with a Foward Smash at the edge, he is a Glass Canon.

Glass Canon doesn't refer just to physical traits, it also implies how a character behaves. Such characters, despite their low defense are supposed to hit hard and fast. Mewtwo is not supposed to behave aggressively, because he does not have the actual speed to do so, and his attacks don't have great combo potential. This means he's supposed to use this stronger attacks to catch the opponent off-gaurd and either push them away or punish. Labeling of him as a glass canon only makes people think his playstyle is something different from what it actually is, leading to failure with the character.

 

[Metallinatus]

Labeling of him as a glass canon only makes people think his playstyle is something different from what it actually is, leading to failure with the character.

No, it doesn't, because, again, being Glass Cannon does not depend on any specific playstyle....
And you can play Mewtwo aggressively if you be good enough to do it right....
Your definition of Glass Cannon as a character that HAS to be aggressive is completely wrong.

 

[ToTs]

You're obviously not understanding what the term "Glass Canon" means. You keep mentioning rush down, that's irrelevant to the term. Plus everyone keeps telling you what it is.

Glass = Fragile
Cannon = Powerful

 

[SafCar]

To add on to that, let's take a look at the metagame Mewtwo himself is from: Pokemon.

Some pokes have high offenses and below average defenses, like Archeops, and are given the term "glass cannon". Doesn't mean they have to be offensive. I could have an Archeops attempting defensive or supportive strategies like Stealth Rocks or Roost. Granted, depending on his movepool, the intent may not work effectively.

The same bodes true here. Mewtwo has bad defenses and good offenses, hence the "Glass Cannon". When looking at him as a whole, though, Mewtwo is not like characters such as Jigglypuff who can stay on offense the whole match. His slowness in movement make him a poor offense character, but his projectile, reflector, and aerials make him great for defensive/reactionary play. Another example of a defensive "glass cannon" is Little Mac (horrible recovery makes him gimpable and can die early)

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

The term glass cannon refers only to the amount of damage a particular character or unit does in relation to how much it can sustain. You're making the assumption that all glass cannons are also brawler style characters/units. While this may be true in some situations, such as Akuma from Street Fighter, the two are not always mutually exclusive. For example, in many games, glass cannons are characters or units that are ranged, allowing them to circumvent their low sustainability by out-ranging their opponent while dealing massive damage. (Mages and archers come to mind.)

Also, to be honest, the only way to truly fail with a character in smash is to assume it can only be played one way. Every character can be played rush down, or defensive, and anyone with a projectile can be campy. Learning to play a character in every role to proficiency is how you really succeed in this game.

 

[ToTs]

To add on to that, let's take a look at the metagame Mewtwo himself is from: Pokemon.

Some pokes have high offenses and below average defenses, like Archeops, and are given the term "glass cannon"

Archeops has one of the worst abilities ever!! Defeatist lol whyyy

 

[meleebrawler]

The term glass cannon refers only to the amount of damage a particular character or unit does in relation to how much it can sustain. You're making the assumption that all glass cannons are also brawler style characters/units. While this may be true in some situations, such as Akuma from Street Fighter, the two are not always mutually exclusive. For example, in many games, glass cannons are characters or units that are ranged, allowing them to circumvent their low sustainability by out-ranging their opponent while dealing massive damage. (Mages and archers come to mind.)

Also, to be honest, the only way to truly fail with a character in smash is to assume it can only be played one way. Every character can be played rush down, or defensive, and anyone with a projectile can be campy. Learning to play a character in every role to proficiency is how you really succeed in this game.

I think even Akuma can be played defensively if so inclined.

 

[BlastLine99]

Maybe being a glass canon has certain other meaning in other games, and maybe it does in this game as well, but the problem I have with it is that many players can't seem to realize that this generalized term does not determine how you play as Mewtwo. I have had multiple arguments with people who claim Mewtwo is terrible, because he's a "Glass Cannon" yet he is not fast enough, has weird attacks, or is not strong enough to take the offensive.They are of course right about all that, but are also wrong about assuming Mewtwo should be played like that in the first place.

Also, to what Safcar said, Little Mac is more of a true glass canon, because he has the speed. In Smash, speed does determine a character's offensive capabilities, not just strength. All of Mewtwo's power is best used when you have an opening, because you defended yourself well enough to make your opponent fail. Little Mac can sneak in attacks much better than Mewtwo because he's fast enough to do so. Also, comparing one game to a completely different game doesn't really help.

This also brings something else to mind that I just want to mention. I do not care at all about a character's traits in the games that they originate from. So when people say Mewtwo should be much heavier than he is, I disagree (I do believe he should be slightly heavier though). If characters were accurate to the games they come from, then Ganondorf would be Triple-S rank on every tier list ever.

And to what ToTs said, Glass Canon equaling Powerful and Fragile is not accurate. It more accurately means high attack and low defense. Mewtwo may not have weight(fragile), but his defense is amazing.

Trying to play Mewtwo like your playing one of the top characters will get you killed. You have to pace yourself, and counter your opponent. So many people think Mewtwo is just a messed up and poorly designed character because they are convinced they should be playing him the wrong way, and they do that because they don't understand what people are calling him when they say he's a glass cannon.

Maybe he can be called a glass cannon when considering certain definitions of the phrase, but I unfortunately don't have that ability. Where I'm coming from on all of this, everyone I've had to talked to about Mewtwo(which is a lot of newbies on twitch, youtube, and miiverse) believe Glass Cannon means an offensive style, so I'm stuck dealing with it as that. I just believe we should be calling him something else, or at least explain his actual abilities better, to help the players who don't have a clue.

 

[ToTs]

Actually no, I'm right. he's Fragile because he dies early regardless of how amazing his defense may or may not be. He cant take hits, just like glass. This concept is so simple yet you're arguing about it, and for what. Why does this thread exist

Oh, Just to add, if this was a game that actually had defense stats, he would have horrible defense, since he dies earlier than probably every character in the game other than Jiggs.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

As everyone here has reiterated to you again and again, myself included, the term glass cannon doesn't refer to a units maneuverability. Glass cannons does not mean that a character must be able to strike quickly, regardless of speeds importance in sm4sh in determining the offensive capabilities, Glass cannon refers specifically to damage done on strike. Mewtwo hits hard with many of his attacks compared to most of the cast, but he can't take big hits himself due to his incredibly lightweight. This would actually imply a defensive nature because you want to avoid getting hit while getting hits in yourself. Speed does allow for you get in your opponents face and get your hits in, but so does Mewtwos kit when utilized defensively, he doesn't need to get in your face because he is content waiting for you to come within striking range.

You are conflating the terms glass cannon and brawler, or you're assuming the two are mutually exclusive terms. Some glass cannons are brawlers, like Little Mac. Some glass cannons are defensive, like Mewtwo. Some Brawlers have good recovery, like Fox. Some brawlers dont hit that hard, but are great at getting in your face and staying there, like Shiek.

I think, perhaps, the point you're missing out on is that none of these terms are all inclusive to every single trait of any particular character. Every character fits mostly into one archetype or another but they all have a trait or two that doesnt seem to fit their main role.

Edit: Yes, even Akuma can be played defensively, but his speed and power combined with low hp lends itself very well to getting in your opponents face at the start of the fight and staying there until they're on the ground KO'd.

 

[BlastLine99]

As everyone here has reiterated to you again and again, myself included, the term glass cannon doesn't refer to a units maneuverability. Glass cannons does not mean that a character must be able to strike quickly, regardless of speeds importance in sm4sh in determining the offensive capabilities, Glass cannon refers specifically to damage done on strike. Mewtwo hits hard with many of his attacks compared to most of the cast, but he can't take big hits himself due to his incredibly lightweight. This would actually imply a defensive nature because you want to avoid getting hit while getting hits in yourself. Speed does allow for you get in your opponents face and get your hits in, but so does Mewtwos kit when utilized defensively, he doesn't need to get in your face because he is content waiting for you to come within striking range.

You are conflating the terms glass cannon and brawler, or you're assuming the two are mutually exclusive terms. Some glass cannons are brawlers, like Little Mac. Some glass cannons are defensive, like Mewtwo. Some Brawlers have good recovery, like Fox. Some brawlers dont hit that hard, but are great at getting in your face and staying there, like Shiek.

I think, perhaps, the point you're missing out on is that none of these terms are all inclusive to every single trait of any particular character. Every character fits mostly into one archetype or another but they all have a trait or two that doesnt seem to fit their main role.

Edit: Yes, even Akuma can be played defensively, but his speed and power combined with low hp lends itself very well to getting in your opponents face at the start of the fight and staying there until they're on the ground KO'd.

And everyone here continues to miss the whole point of this thread. Everyone here keeps saying that any character can be played, but you all know that everyone else insists on trying to fit every character into a single archetype. Big characters like Bowser get called grapplers, characters with extended range like Rosalina are said to be all about Zoning, and characters like Shiek are supposed to focus on the rush-down. Their labels, and they are harmful to the characters. This is because a lot of players are lazy or followers, and want to be told how to play.

You all know better because you play the game, but ask people who are relatively unaware of subtleties of this game what kind of character Mewtwo is. Typically, (At least from what I've heard) their general response will be, "Oh, he's supposed to be a glass cannon, but he's not any good. Too light and too slow."

My whole point of this thread was to try and help convey that there's more to Mewtwo than everyone's misconceptions of him, and the term "Glass cannon" has kept showing up in every discussion I've had about the character. So maybe it's a phrase that's appropriate for Mewtwo, but most people seem to believe that means he should be something other he is, which makes people hate the character.

So if everyone wants to get hung up on the defintion of a term, instead of understanding that the majority of people will not care, and are content with just knowing the minimum and writing Mewtwo off as terrible, be my guest. I was only trying to encourage a deeper and more accurate understanding of a character that has been nearly universally panned by the competitive community. -_-

 

[SafCar]

Dude, you made a topic because you disliked how someone initially thought of a character.

If they don't play him, then oh well. It just means they'll be more likely to lose since they don't understand how he works.
If they do play him, then they'll quickly learn how wrong the label "Glass Cannon" is for Mewtwo.

Be patient, we've had Mewtwo for half a year now. When Smash 4 was a half year in, everyone believed Diddy to be Top Tier. Things will change.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mewtwo requires knowledge of how the gameplay system actually works. Since Mewtwo is entirely centered around knowing how every fighter works and needs hard reads and trickery to even do well.

He can be played both defensively and aggressively and can either be campy or have a be quick or be dead playstyle.

Just depends on how long you want to live I guess.

 

[RayNoire]

The only reason anyone wouldn't consider Mewtwo a glass cannon is because glass cannons are usually good.

Also I don't know where this "defensive, tricky" etc. came from. Defensive Mewtwos lose hard because he can't punish anything, and "tricky" is just a synonym for "bad." It's like when people call Robin "strategic."

 

[MagiusNecros]

Okay. He's horrible. Unless you master grabbing people.

 

[Steam]

Mewtwo is a glass cannon, just a really bad one with no neutral or mixups.

 

[Chiroz]

Mewtwo is a glass cannon, just a really bad one with no neutral or mixups.

I don't feel we have "no neutral". In fact I feel neutral is the only real thing Mewtwo has going for him.

He has a subpar advantage state (getting 1-2 hit conversions at most) and an incredibly bad disadvantage stage (being comboed forever and ever to your opponents delight) and he can't handle pressure at all.

But playing the neutral is literally the only thing I feel I can do well when playing as this char. And I've been praised for my neutral a lot of times by a lot of incredibly good players.

 

[LRodC]

Mewtwo seems more bait and punish to me right now. At least, that's how I try and use him. He's definitely not an offensive character by any means. I'm not sure he's a true glass cannon since he doesn't exactly have Ganondorf or Bowser like power to perfectly offset being so light, but he does have a lot of KO options.

Also I agree that Mewtwo's neutral isn't bad at all. Down tilt is an excellent poke at mid range and shadow balls are always useful. Jab is average, but it's good when it connects and has nice range.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

A novice's misinterpretation of the term glass cannon, or misinterpretation of how to play Mewtwo as the glass cannon that he is, does not mean that Mewtwo isn't a glass cannon. He is a glass cannon, that's the cold hard truth. If a novice thinks that glass cannon means rushdown, brawler types, then it is the novices poor understanding of the terms that is to blame, not the term being used to correctly describe Mewtwo. The ability to understand what terms mean in context to gameplay is something that must come through experience anyway, insisting that a different descriptive term would be better is illogical because a different term means nothing if the player has no contextual information to go on.

In short, changing what you call Mewtwo because other people don't understand what it means, isn't going to make them understand better, they have to actually play the game and develop the experience with the character to gain context for the terms.

 

[LRodC]

A novice's misinterpretation of the term glass cannon, or misinterpretation of how to play Mewtwo as the glass cannon that he is, does not mean that Mewtwo isn't a glass cannon. He is a glass cannon, that's the cold hard truth. If a novice thinks that glass cannon means rushdown, brawler types, then it is the novices poor understanding of the terms that is to blame, not the term being used to correctly describe Mewtwo. The ability to understand what terms mean in context to gameplay is something that must come through experience anyway, insisting that a different descriptive term would be better is illogical because a different term means nothing if the player has no contextual information to go on.

In short, changing what you call Mewtwo because other people don't understand what it means, isn't going to make them understand better, they have to actually play the game and develop the experience with the character to gain context for the terms.

Glass cannon is more of his character archetype, bait and punish is his play style.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

True, but my point is that a novice still won't understand, no matter the terms you use, until they've played enough to experience what the term actually means in relation to the character.

 

[godogod]

I don't think he's a true glass cannon at all. He can die earlier than he can kill. He's incredibly light, and while he does have some powerful moves it's not on the same tier as heavy weights(DK, ganondorf, DDD, bowser, ike) in this game. If his forward and down smash was as powerful as Roy's, and his up throw was as powerful as it was in melee(or equivalent to charizard's), O
d say he'd earn the title of glass cannon.

Also I"m not sure how the hell people are claiming tha they can kill characters at 80%,as if it its a breeze. Yeah I guess a fully charged up smash on a light weight, if you are lucky enough to land on it. Up throw and back throw(on the ledge and much later than up throw) kill well above 120-30% on medium to light medium characters. You can kill the light weights in stages with low ceilings like FD, smashville at 100%(like kirby), but nothing too crazy.

 

[Browny]

Did someone just say that charizards uthrow is stronger than mewtwos...

... again...

http://gfycat.com/NecessaryBlissfulGrizzlybear

 

[Metallinatus]

Worse, he also said his Up Throw is weaker than it was in Melee..........

 

[Furret24]

Did someone just say that charizards uthrow is stronger than mewtwos...

... again...

http://gfycat.com/NecessaryBlissfulGrizzlybear

12%, 72b/65g
11%, 50b/220g

I'm pretty sure Charizard's is slightly stronger.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't think he's a true glass cannon at all. He can die earlier than he can kill. He's incredibly light, and while he does have some powerful moves it's not on the same tier as heavy weights(DK, ganondorf, DDD, bowser, ike) in this game. If his forward and down smash was as powerful as Roy's, and his up throw was as powerful as it was in melee(or equivalent to charizard's), O
d say he'd earn the title of glass cannon.

Also I"m not sure how the hell people are claiming tha they can kill characters at 80%,as if it its a breeze. Yeah I guess a fully charged up smash on a light weight, if you are lucky enough to land on it. Up throw and back throw(on the ledge and much later than up throw) kill well above 120-30% on medium to light medium characters. You can kill the light weights in stages with low ceilings like FD, smashville at 100%(like kirby), but nothing too crazy.

This is like saying Akuma isn't a real glass cannon because none of his moves hit as hard as Zangief's Spinning Piledriver.
There's more to being one than just hitting hard and dying early. Akuma could have the best combos in the game and the lowest health, but that wouldn't mean much if he didn't have other things like his fast walking and versatile fireballs as well. Real glass cannons tend to have versatile set of moves letting them handle and make the most of a variety of situations, a toolset that would normally be seen as excessive if not for the very low health of the wielder.

When you look at Mewtwo, you see a character who gets his best rewards from reads and punishes, much like a lot of the heavyweights in the game. But what sets him apart is that he possesses several traits that those heavies lack, a lack that severely cripples most of them. Mewtwo is very mobile on both the ground and in the air, has a powerful and versatile projectile good for both general use and strong long-distance punishes (the only heavy with anything like that is Charizard and his highly punishable Flare Blitz) , a very effective recovery that is very difficult to disrupt if the player is on point and a reflector letting him counter attempts to keep him out while also doubling as an extra jump and command grab. His disadvantage, though not great is still a sight better than most heavies thanks to his natural speed and myriad movement options. Now, imagine if on top of all this his weight was comparable to those heavies; what reason would there really be to play any of them besides Mewtwo then? Because they hit harder on average? Mewtwo may be lacking in raw power compared to them, but he makes up for it versatility.

All of his aerials can cause more than 10% damage, in a game where faster characters are lucky to even have one that can do that. His smashes all have their uses (fsmash for spacing, dsmash against reckless approaches and the very quick usmash as anti-air), two KO throws, one of which is in the running for strongest vertical KOing throw in the game (Zard's may look stronger on paper, and can potentially exceed Mewtwo's with sufficient rage, but in practice Mewtwo will killing earlier most of the time with his very difficult to DI trajectory), the already mentioned immensely useful shadow ball for long-range etc. There's very few scenarios where Mewtwo CAN'T KO you in some way, and the few weaker moves he has tend to be very good at setups, another thing heavies generally struggle with.

Is Mewtwo undertuned compared to the amount of stamina he has? Maybe. But the foundation of a glass cannon is there and fairly solid.

 

[LRodC]

Can someone show me or link me to how Mewtwo's up throw is stronger than Charizard's? I know in terms of variables, Charizard's throw can be DIed easier than Mewtwo's, but in terms of pure strength at the same rate, no DI, center of Final Destination 3DS, Mario dies at 133% to Charizard's up throw. He dies to Mewtwo's at 142%.

 

[meleebrawler]

Can someone show me or link me to how Mewtwo's up throw is stronger than Charizard's? I know in terms of variables, Charizard's throw can be DIed easier than Mewtwo's, but in terms of pure strength at the same rate, no DI, center of in Final Destination 3DS, Mario dies at 133% to Charizard's up throw. He dies to Mewtwo's at 142%.

You just answered your own question there. Zard's Uthrow has more raw power and will thus kill earlier with no or bad DI, but in practice smart opponents will usually make it kill later than that with DI. The same can't be said for Mewtwo's.

 

[LRodC]

You just answered your own question there. Zard's Uthrow has more raw power and will thus kill earlier with no or bad DI, but in practice smart opponents will usually make it kill later than that with DI. The same can't be said for Mewtwo's.

That's what I thought. That's why I was confused when Browny posted that Mewtwo's was stronger.

 

[Furret24]

You just answered your own question there. Zard's Uthrow has more raw power and will thus kill earlier with no or bad DI, but in practice smart opponents will usually make it kill later than that with DI. The same can't be said for Mewtwo's.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the difference this makes is probably non-existant for lighter characters who get almost no time to DI. If we look at it this way, Charizard's is stronger with no DI while Mewtwo's is stronger on part of the cast with DI.

I could be wrong though.

 

[Browny]

12%, 72b/65g
11%, 50b/220g

I'm pretty sure Charizard's is slightly stronger.

Can someone show me or link me to how Mewtwo's up throw is stronger than Charizard's? I know in terms of variables, Charizard's throw can be DIed easier than Mewtwo's, but in terms of pure strength at the same rate, no DI, center of Final Destination 3DS, Mario dies at 133% to Charizard's up throw. He dies to Mewtwo's at 142%.

Did people not see this?

http://gfycat.com/NecessaryBlissfulGrizzlybear

DI makes a gigantic difference in kill throws, same applies for Ness' throw. throws that go straight up are the best, thats why Lucas' uthrow is also right up there, much strong that charizards as well.

 

[Furret24]

Did people not see this?



DI makes a gigantic difference in kill throws, same applies for Ness' throw. throws that go straight up are the best, thats why Lucas' uthrow is also right up there, much strong that charizards as well.

No. Charizard's is stronger knockbackwise. Mewtwo's just kills faster and deals slightly more damage.