Give Sheik a Tether Again?

[DrLobster]

Considering the incoming tether nerf in 3.5, re-giving Sheik her Brawl tether seems like a completely fair option; it gives her a good mixup tool to an awful recovery, while not making it too overpowered to the point of spamming. Seems like a balanced deal to me.

Thoughts?

 

[Dervo]

I agree, hopefully because of the decent amount of people think sheik is underpowered (honestly no idea why) they'll give her one. A tether would certainly give her the little boost she needs(?).

 

[DrLobster]

Yeah, Sheik is a little downgraded in Project M, just because they gave her more PAL traits instead of NTSC traits. Which makes sense, considering it's more balanced. But giving her the Melee chain instead of the Brawl chain seems a little silly. It doesn't balance things out like making her like the PAL Sheik does; it just makes her a straight up worse character for no reason.

 

[Cazobie]

I personally would love to see it as i play sheik in melee and brawl for fun, but seeing as they are trying to nerf recoveries across the board idk if we will see it... :/

 

[DrLobster]

Yeah.....although, I'm hoping the general nerf of tethers would make them want to give Sheik her tether back, since now it punishes spamming.

 

[Blue Mario]

But if they're nerfing recoveries and tethers it wouldn't make much sense to give her another one. The fact that everyone with OP recoveries is getting nerfed gives Shiek a buff as it will make it slightly easier to edge guard these opponents, which Shiek is already really good at.

 

[DrLobster]

But if they're nerfing recoveries and tethers it wouldn't make much sense to give her another one. The fact that everyone with OP recoveries is getting nerfed gives Shiek a buff as it will make it slightly easier to edge guard these opponents, which Shiek is already really good at.

Yeah, it's gonna make edgeguarding some tether characters easier, but I don't see how that would factor in to the decision about wether or not to give Sheik a tether. The fact is, Sheik is one of the few Melee characters whos criminally awful recovery wasn't enhanced in some way (i.e. Falcon and Ganon's side Bs, Game and Watches ability to to do actions out of his Up-B, etc). Besides being able to use the reverse grab on the Up-B, Sheik still doesn't really have any decent mixup game in her recovery, with her Up-B being basically a free punish.

 

[Cazobie]

Yeah sheik definitely needs more options all she has is wall jump back air or wavedash onto the stage if she is close enough for those, otherwise its the ever so easy to punish up b

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I really am a fan of giving her the tether back. It gives her a really good option out of her wall cling. Right now, if you still have your second jump (in recovery, you usually don't...), wall cling is a useful mixup. with the tether, we can second jump towards the stage, wall cling, wall jump, and tether to the ledge. It also helps deal with the typical Shiek edgeguard of "refresh invinicbility on ledge, force shiek to land on stage, punish". However, Shiek still has a rough time getting to the ledge.

Do you think it would be too much to ask to be able to wall cling out of up b? That would help with the issue of getting to the wall...

 

[shairn]

Do you think it would be too much to ask to be able to wall cling out of up b? That would help with the issue of getting to the wall...

Up B wall jump mario level infinite recoveries are things people generally want to avoid in PM.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Obviously it would be limited. It would seriously help her recovery though. The problem is would make it too good (not broken, just that her recovery is supposed to be bad.).

 

[DrLobster]

Do you think it would be too much to ask to be able to wall cling out of up b? That would help with the issue of getting to the wall...

Up B wall jump mario level infinite recoveries are things people generally want to avoid in PM.

Yeah, I would tend to agree with Shairn here. I think being able to do anything out of Sheik's Up-B would be a little much.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Slightly decreasing on stage landing lag of up b and giving her the tether back would be what I realistically ask for. It all depends on how big the nerfs to everyones recoveries are

 

[Taytertot]

She most definitely should if the shiek zelda combo become separate. I feel they should be their own characters and if they are then shiek would benefit from having the recovery mixup.

 

[9bit]

I think the tether would be fine to "bring back" from Brawl. You're still gonna get punished for using it with that forced jump when you reel in. And it's very ninja-like. And I want it because it's cool and I play Sheik >_>

 

[Taytertot]

I agree. the tether wouldn't by any means be OP. It's a cool mix up to have especially considering sheik's upB isn't the greatest in terms of recovery range, but it also would give an opponent the opportunity to punish sheik's recover given the right read. It really doesn't feel like much of a buff IMO.

 

[DrLobster]

Yeah, all this stuff that we've all been saying makes sense; it wouldn't be overpowered since the tether-nerfs are going to fix that, but it would still be a cool upgrade to Sheik's arsenal. It would be a great mixup tool while simultaneously being not too good of a mixup tool to be spam-worthy/realistically eliminate Sheik's other recovery options (i.e. look at Lucas in 3.02).

Now, the REAL tough part it getting the PMBR to see this thread and impliment it lol.

 

[DrLobster]

3.5 comes out tomorrow.

FINGERS CROSSED, GUISE

 

[9bit]

Tether might come back

Sheik might be split from Zelda

Video unrelated except it's called "All in the Waiting" and it's rad

 

[jascol]

ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ

 

[DrLobster]

What would the tether be mapped to..?
My hand naturally uses the Z button for aerials, I've tried to switch but it feels uncomfortable for me...

Well, in Brawl, it was mapped to her Side B; if you used it close to the edge, you would just tether on.

 

[jascol]

ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ

 

[Missile]

It doesn't look like her recovery will be changed in no way shape or form. It's still laggy as hell, very limited and feels a lot less safe to do near an edgeguarding opponent compared to Melee.

characters with instant-recoveries like DK's up-b and even Zelda's too make me wonder how having her recovery like it is, is anywhere near fair.

 

[ThreeSided]

It doesn't look like her recovery will be changed in no way shape or form. It's still laggy as hell, very limited and feels a lot less safe to do near an edgeguarding opponent compared to Melee.

characters with instant-recoveries like DK's up-b and even Zelda's too make me wonder how having her recovery like it is, is anywhere near fair.

Because she's an awesome character? I mean honestly, she has a weakness, is that such a big problem?

 

[Missile]

Because she's an awesome character? I mean honestly, she has a weakness, is that such a big problem?

No. She has more than "a" weakness. That is her biggest weakness, and it always has been. Her other weaknesses are more apparent in Project M than they are in Melee, mainly her combo-food status. Just about every character has a high-percent juggle on her in Project M, it has been like this since I've used her in 3.02 which has been the past 6-7 months.

She also has another very notable flaw, and that is her inability to get out from above characters which can juggle her. She has no way to jump up and drop down really fast, and neither does she have a move that has high priority under her hurtbox. I can only think of one move that has a hitbox below her, and it's laggy and leaves her foot hurtbox completely exposed, air dodging is highly compromising in Melee and Project M. While it might work in some situations, it is not reliable.

With a laggy recovery, the fact that she gets combo'd by just about every character in this game very easily and for a lot of damage, and on top of that, an inability to get out from a juggle reliably like a lot of characters can, outweigh her neutral game's advantages severely.

I won't take it away from her; she's a great edge guarder and even more so now that everyone's recoveries are a lot riskier and more predictable. Her grab game is also very good compared to the rest of the cast, and her ability to poke you from afar with needles and sometimes gimp you with them is also a very strong asset of hers.

I think that at the very least, a little reduction in landing lag from up-b is a reasonable change. As it stands, it is EXTREMELY laggy. That's my opinion after maining her exclusively for consecutive months.

 

[ThreeSided]

No. She has more than "a" weakness. That is her biggest weakness, and it always has been. Her other weaknesses are more apparent in Project M than they are in Melee, mainly her combo-food status. Just about every character has a high-percent juggle on her in Project M, it has been like this since I've used her in 3.02 which has been the past 6-7 months.

She also has another very notable flaw, and that is her inability to get out from above characters which can juggle her. She has no way to jump up and drop down really fast, and neither does she have a move that has high priority under her hurtbox. I can only think of one move that has a hitbox below her, and it's laggy and leaves her foot hurtbox completely exposed, air dodging is highly compromising in Melee and Project M. While it might work in some situations, it is not reliable.

With a laggy recovery, the fact that she gets combo'd by just about every character in this game very easily and for a lot of damage, and on top of that, an inability to get out from a juggle reliably like a lot of characters can, outweigh her neutral game's advantages severely.

I won't take it away from her; she's a great edge guarder and even more so now that everyone's recoveries are a lot riskier and more predictable. Her grab game is also very good compared to the rest of the cast, and her ability to poke you from afar with needles and sometimes gimp you with them is also a very strong asset of hers.

I think that at the very least, a little reduction in landing lag from up-b is a reasonable change. As it stands, it is EXTREMELY laggy. That's my opinion after maining her exclusively for consecutive months.

Yes, she has more than one weakness, I don't disagree. But for the most part they can be worked around and their consequences minimized. When you play her meta, she's good. Post patch, many would agree that she's top tier. To simplify this post, I will reword my original statement: She has weaknesses, is that such a big problem?

It would be one thing if she were a lower tier character that needed to be buffed, so pre patch I might have been willing to agree that she could use some buffs to bring her a little higher, but as of 3.5 she doesn't really need it. She's very likely to compete very well.

But then, maybe that's not what you mean. Are you saying that her recovery is frustrating and you don't like playing it as it is? If that's the case, does that mean you're willing to take some nerfs to the character in order to make up for these buffs? If so, then you're just expressing your personal distaste for aspects of the character. Many people would be irked to hear that they nerfed her Fair/throws/tilts so that she could recover better, because their tastes differ from yours (myself included). Realistically, it's kind of a silly reason to change things that will just end up causing the same problems for a different group of people, especially if it means alienating those who have already grown accustomed to the character.

Of course, there's also just the possibility that you don't agree that she's such a good character. In that case, it's a matter of a different argument entirely.

 

[EddyBearr]

Sheik's up-B can continue to be a weakness if it's brought to Marth levels of lag.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Sheik is fine now, she needed a little help before but now she's honestly perfect. The thing with sheik is that she's a very matchup oriented character in the sense that her game plan usually revolves around counterplay rather than some sort of optimal plan. playing her requires a lot of extensive matchup knowledge, so I usually switch to falco for the first game of a matchup I don't know. A lot of people are confused still because playing her doesn't only require knowing 8 matchups like in melee, and that her throw game is different (but better in my opinion).
Sure her recovery is still not great, but overall she's definitely a top tier character. Sheik has weaknesses, but a well designed character should. It's true that her recovery and the fact that she can't come to the floor well is a weakness of hers, but those weaknesses are found in many other characters with worse problems. Her endlag I admit is slightly excessive, but it doesn't really matter in my opinion.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I was wishing for the tether recovery as well, but I'm not so sure that Sheik needs it. The end lag on the up B is a problem, but Sheik is very competitive, even moreso this version, and so I think this is just something we'll have to work around.

 

[Missile]

I personally don't think that a slight reduction in her up-b landing lag will break her. She has 30 frames of landing lag, plus 4 frames of additional lag when landing on the ground in special fall. That's half a second you have to react with any move that is faster than that to punish her. Her invulnerability lasts I believe around 10-ish frames starting on frame 18 IIRC.

Even 14-16 frames of lag would be more than reasonable.

I doubt there's a character that isn't as good or better than her with similar land lag in their up-b. I don't think even Marth has that much lag, his up-b lasts 30 frames total.