Give me a Zelda research assignment!

[Mentor]

Greetings!
My last totally free weekend is coming up. I'm considering looking into & posting some general aspect regarding zelda, but nothing comes to my mind. So how 'bout this: You suggest something & I'll spend the weekend researching it. Here are the rules:

1. I can only research 1 thing.
2. I need to be able to research it by myself. With 2 controllers. As much as I'd love to give a thread on methods of conditioning w/ zelda, the guy I have helping me w/ that isn't around that often.
3. It needs to take less than 20 hours to fully research.
4. The more specific, the better.
5. It can be anything related to Zelda that would benefit you, the Zelda player (sorry, no sheik/sheilda related stuff.....this time)
6. I will re-check this thread on Friday, whomever suggests the most......interesting topic, I will look into over the weekend & make a new thread detailing my findings.
7. If no suggestions pique my interest, I'll research 1 of the my own suggestions below.

Assignment will be chosen based on ease of research, how practical it would be for Zelda (friendlies or tourney), stylin' potential (this is a big factor for me), and how much fun I'll have researching it.

Some suggested topics/examples:

• Zelda's footstooling potential (I know I've covered some of this, but I'd be happy to give more detail including characters, moves, and % ranges where it's guaranteed)
• Interesting/stylish ways to combo into exploding dins?
• Method(s) for practicing *fill in a move/movement pattern/spacing/timing/other thing here*
• Research specific Zelda tech & how to practice it (eg telecancelling from ground to reverse cancel off lower platform edge to edge cancel into a fast fall aerial, where it'd work & how to practice it)
• Gimmie a list of combos you think have potential & I'll test them for 5-10 chars (based on fall speed & weight) & for worst/best case DI (gotta give me some guidance on why/how u think they'd work)
• List of Jiggs rest punishes? In order of least to most stylish??? (sorry, currently working on this one, but I promise you'll enjoy the results)

If you like anything from this list, just copy paste it (without my silly comments) into your own comment box & repost.

 

[4tlas]

What amount of damage does a projectile need to do to break Zelda' reflector?

 

[noobftw]

I would love to see things you can do off of a perfect ledgedash. Or how many frames you have from a perfect ledge dash. Cause from my experience there is only enough for shield.
Or what moves can you do that are invincible from the ledge.
Ledge options are definitely something I would like to have looked into

 

[ECHOnce]

What amount of damage does a projectile need to do to break Zelda' reflector?

Reflectors don't break. IIRC projectiles like solar beam, oil panic, etc. are exempt from being reflected because they have...whatever that priority type was called. Transcendent...? Think of them as having aerial sword properties instead of projectiles.

 

[4tlas]

Reflectors don't break. IIRC projectiles like solar beam, oil panic, etc. are exempt from being reflected because they have...whatever that priority type was called. Transcendent...? Think of them as having aerial sword properties instead of projectiles.

Solar beam is simply a hitbox, not a projectile, same with Oil Panic. I'm pretty sure reflectors break since they have in every game so far...

 

[Luis Alonso]

Good luck trying to break Zelda's Nayru's then. Can you find an example of Zelda's Nayru's breaking in any other Smash game?

 

[4tlas]

If I knew I wouldn't have suggested it. I also don't care enough to figure it out myself. Its just an idea.

 

[ECHOnce]

Solar beam is simply a hitbox, not a projectile, same with Oil Panic. I'm pretty sure reflectors break since they have in every game so far...

All projectiles are "simply a hitbox," and since they can't be influenced at all, they are rendered into...basically just being an uninterruptible hitbox as you said. But the only reason why it can't be influenced is because of the transcendent priority.

OR maybe they can be reflected and just do too much damage to be reflected by any characters. I was wrong about reflectors not breaking. Looked stuff up and found that all character reflectors in Brawl could reflect up to 50%. Ness' bat is an exception and reflects up to 80%, and most Assist Trophies/Pokemon reflect up to 100%. But no character projectile in the game (besides maybe Solar Beam/Oil Panic) really gets up that high in damage, even after % growth from being reflected a few times (x1.3-1.5 per reflection, x2.0 off of Ness bat).

 

[4tlas]

All projectiles are "simply a hitbox," and since they can't be influenced at all, they are rendered into...basically just being an uninterruptible hitbox as you said. But the only reason why it can't be influenced is because of the transcendent priority.

OR maybe they can be reflected and just do too much damage to be reflected by any characters. I was wrong about reflectors not breaking. Looked stuff up and found that all character reflectors in Brawl could reflect up to 50%. Ness' bat is an exception and reflects up to 80%, and most Assist Trophies/Pokemon reflect up to 100%. But no character projectile in the game (besides maybe Solar Beam/Oil Panic) really gets up that high in damage, even after % growth from being reflected a few times (x1.3-1.5 per reflection, x2.0 off of Ness bat).

By "simply a hitbox" I mean they are not also considered projectiles. Projectiles are coded as their own object that is spawned rather than a part of the character's object. The reason why we can't have new projectiles is that we can't create new objects of that type. I'm pretty sure Oil Panic is not a projectile and Solar Beam was added in as just a hitbox, though I think they would've made it a projectile if they could (like Rob's laser).

I'm still pretty sure all reflectors break at some point, and (in Melee at least) the multipliers from each reflect just keep on stacking up (afaik). I would assume its the same here, but thats exactly the type of thing that maybe nobody knows, is hard objective data, and can be researched purely through trial and error using someone's weekend of free time!

 

[Kaeldiar]

All reflectors break, usually at 50% damage. In Melee and 64, you go into "shield-break" state. In Brawl and Smash 4, the reflector is ignored. Project M probably follows the Brawl model. In the gif that @ Luis Alonso posted where Frozen got #REKT, the shadowball was doing ~47.5 damage to the reflector. Nayru's is a 1.2x multiplier, so 57/1.2 = 47.5...in other words, it was VERY close to breaking. If Frozen had tried to reflect Shadow Ball again (assuming he was able to get it out in time), he probably would've died anyway. Also... never forget

 

[ECHOnce]

All reflectors break, usually at 50% damage. In Melee and 64, you go into "shield-break" state. In Brawl and Smash 4, the reflector is ignored. Project M probably follows the Brawl model. In the gif that @ Luis Alonso posted where Frozen got #REKT, the shadowball was doing ~47.5 damage to the reflector. Nayru's is a 1.2x multiplier, so 57/1.2 = 47.5...in other words, it was VERY close to breaking. If Frozen had tried to reflect Shadow Ball again (assuming he was able to get it out in time), he probably would've died anyway. Also... never forget

That's true,but they'd have to be in fairly close proximity for it to hit Nayrus 3 times and break it before the move just plain runs out. Most projectiles strong enough to build up to 50+ in 4 reflections have long endlag, and each reflection speeds a projectile up iirc, so they'd prob have to powershield them all. Getting two powershields at close proximity, after the long endlag, and with a projectile of varying speed is unlikely to happen in the spur of the moment without any practice specifically for that lol.

This is something that I could see happening pretty easily in teams tho lol...good to note.

EDIT: Wait. What about item projectiles? I could see Stitches, Bomb-ombs, and Gordos breaking reflectors after one reflection. Instant AGT'ing items back into Nayrus a second time, recatching, and saving it for later could maybe make some others feasibly dangerous, too...does that work?! Why haven't I ever heard of this being a thing before. The thought of an item breaking Nayrus as easily as this is horrifying.

 

[4tlas]

You could also try having them be so far apart that you can just start a new Nayrus every time. Pick a slow but far reaching projectile like Samus Ice Homing Missile and some extra char with a reflector. Or go into debug and do frame-by-frame?

 

[WhiteCrow]

I would love to see a map of all Din's Fire sizes and orbit angles. I'm putting together a Din's Fire tutorial video and it would be helpful to have a graphic.

 

[Mentor]

Winner is:

I would love to see a map of all Din's Fire sizes and orbit angles. I'm putting together a Din's Fire tutorial video and it would be helpful to have a graphic.

So, got 3 suggestions.

@ 4tlas Sorry, I guess this has already been discussed & analyzed in the above posts

@ N noobftw We can discuss via pm about these details.

@ WhiteCrow While this is the most interesting assignment of the 3 suggested, it feels like it would take me more than a weekend to crank out the data. Having said that, I'm in. pm me so we can discuss more details in terms of specific info u need & how to present it (vids vs excel, etc).

I'll also research Zelda's footstooling potential & see which moves on which characters work @ what %s. I'll research u-smash, d-tilt, f-tilt, u-tilt, up-throw, and jazz hands.

 

[4tlas]

It was discussed with a whole bunch of "well its probably this" or "its definitely this...oh wait I was wrong" so its really still up in the air. Do what you want to, of course.

 

[Mentor]

Ya sorry, after seeing the vid of Zelda double reflecting m2's shadow ball, I feel that her reflector can't be broken for practical purposes. MAYBE a stitch face turnip will brake it in some weird doubles scenario. Then again, I'm having a singles mindset, as for a doubles mindset, there's probably a few scenarios where it could break, but it just feels too esoteric to research for me. :/

 

[ECHOnce]

@ WhiteCrow While this is the most interesting assignment of the 3 suggested, it feels like it would take me more than a weekend to crank out the data. Having said that, I'm in. pm me so we can discuss more details in terms of specific info u need & how to present it (vids vs excel, etc).

In case it helps, the method I would go about measuring this stuff would be:

• Unlimited timed match on FD, by yourself.
• [L+R+dTaunt] Debug Mode on
• [L+LTaunt] Disable camera zoom
• [L+R+dTaunt] Debug Mode off
• [Start] Pause, then press L/R to focus the screen on center stage, and use X/Y and C-stick so the whole stage is visible (or whatever will make testing easier for you).
• [Start] Unpause.

• [L+R+dTaunt] Debug Mode on
• [Start] Frame-by-frame mode on.
• [Side-B + Z] Pressing Z ends the current frame and starts the next, inputting whatever buttons were held.
• [Start] to toggle frame-by-frame mode on/off as needed between tests.
• Experiment a bit. Spam Z for frames where you're not doing anything. Get a feel for what Dins look like on the frame that they start to move up or down. Use a ruler if needed; I needed one for the teleport stuff I did lol.
• Note down how many frames it takes for Dins to reach their max upwards/downwards angle, how many frames it takes to return to a horizontal direction, and how long it takes for it to go from max up/down to max down/up. Just to make sure that the rate is consistent between them lol; idk if they vary.
• Put thumbtack on the points where the din is on (1) the frame before up/down is inputted, and (2) the frame it reaches it's max upwards/downwards angle. Get a protractor and measure that angle. If you don't have a protractor, taping a piece of paper to the TV and marking it with a pencil works too lol.
• If you're willing to do so, you could measure the angle change for each frame, but that'd prob be hard to do accurately and a bit of a waste of time, since nobody would be able to use that practically. But offering a guestimate for where it accelerates/decelerates in changing angles would be helpful, which will probably be intuitive once you've figured the frame data out.

• Unlimited timed match on Melee Battlefield, with a short character (empty controller).
• Lock the camera focus to your preference.
• Move the shorty to the top platform.
• Use the Battlefield Metric in debug frame-by-frame mode to figure out the velocity+acceleration of a full horizontal Din. This is a huge pain in the ass so I probably wouldn't have bothered with it if I weren't OCD lol. The din should have a vertical spike that comes out every few frames iirc, which you can use to figure out which floor laser it's over.
• Maybe measure the speed of a returning Din, too? And how long it stops for after explosions? Pythagoras theorum to account for the diagonal trajectory. Yayy work.
• Bring down the CPU. After experimenting with the above (if you bothered; won't blame you if you don't lol), you should be able to hypothesize where the Din grows to stages 2 and 3. Test that, and narrow it down to which frame it happens. Don't bother measuring the distance, since you've already formulated the velocity/acceleration.
• Post findings. Good luck!

EDIT: I went into a lot of detail so this may seem like a lot of work, but really...once you get into the rhythm of things, it'll only take 30sec or so for each test. Unless you mess up a bunch (which'll happen until you get used to it), it should only take a few minutes to test and double-check each of the...4ish things I suggested in the second group of bullet points above.

The 3rd group of bullet points takes much longer though. Juicy info, but pain in the butt. I have a crappy CRT (large pixels...hard to measure distances), so that stuff usually takes an hour or more for me >___> but maybe you'll be quicker.

 

[Mentor]

This is great stuff & I'll likely use a lot of it, but wouldn't it be easier to do this in Training Room than FD for measuring purposes?

 

[ECHOnce]

Depends. I said FD for the second bullet group because you're just measuring the angle of trajectory. Training room would work for the third bullet group instead of Battlefield, but it's less accurate. Way less of a pain though lol.

 

[Getsafe]

I would love to see things you can do off of a perfect ledgedash. Or how many frames you have from a perfect ledge dash. Cause from my experience there is only enough for shield.
Or what moves can you do that are invincible from the ledge.
Ledge options are definitely something I would like to have looked into

Upsmash, DOWN SMASH IS AMAZING FROM LEDGE (If they get too close, Farore stall for invincibility then ledge dash past them and dsmash them off stage)

 

[luxingo]

So did anything result from this research assignment?

Edit: Zelda's guaranteed footstools was the result.