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Getting the kill. Any suggestions?

Duet

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
62
NNID
requiemlacrimosa
That feeling when you face someone playing Marth who ends up winning the match by getting a lucky tipper on you at 50% when they are at 140. It is a hard pill to swallow, but after seeing that it is hard to deny how inferior Lucina is to him and she is starting to remind me of this.



Oh well, guess I ill keep pressing on.

Even with all the help in this thread the only real improvement I feel like I have made with her is baiting the opponent to attack me and then punishing them for it. Pretty much every match I will do a good 50% more damage to my opponent than they will do to me, but I am still losing way more than I would like to. Most KOs usually end up with me just up throwing the person I am facing for a quick kill because they will be sitting at 150 or higher while I will be sitting at around 40%.

Other than the fact I am terrible at playing aggressive when I need to, I feel like my biggest weakness is currently when the opponent can easily recover from below the stage. I have no real problem going for it when they are recovering horizontal, but vertical recovers from below are a real issue. Any tips other than going for a fast fall counter if their up B is a move that attacks?
 
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CherubiKnighT

"KnighT Of Mystery" CherubiKnighT
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
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87
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Boca Raton, Florida
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Cherubiknight
3DS FC
0946-3379-8020
That feeling when you face someone playing Marth who ends up winning the match by getting a lucky tipper on you at 50% when they are at 140. It is a hard pill to swallow, but after seeing that it is hard to deny how inferior Lucina is to him and she is starting to remind me of this.



Oh well, guess I ill keep pressing on.

Even with all the help in this thread the only real improvement I feel like I have made with her is baiting the opponent to attack me and then punishing them for it. Pretty much every match I will do a good 50% more damage to my opponent than they will do to me, but I am still losing way more than I would like to. Most KOs usually end up with me just up throwing the person I am facing for a quick kill because they will be sitting at 150 or higher while I will be sitting at around 40%.

Other than the fact I am terrible at playing aggressive when I need to, I feel like my biggest weakness is currently when the opponent can easily recover from below the stage. I have no real problem going for it when they are recovering horizontal, but vertical recovers from below are a real issue. Any tips other than going for a fast fall counter if their up B is a move that attacks?
LOL love the meme
 

EternalFlame

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
525
NNID
Eterna1Flame
3DS FC
1993-8719-0815
That feeling when you face someone playing Marth who ends up winning the match by getting a lucky tipper on you at 50% when they are at 140. It is a hard pill to swallow, but after seeing that it is hard to deny how inferior Lucina is to him and she is starting to remind me of this.



Oh well, guess I ill keep pressing on.

Even with all the help in this thread the only real improvement I feel like I have made with her is baiting the opponent to attack me and then punishing them for it. Pretty much every match I will do a good 50% more damage to my opponent than they will do to me, but I am still losing way more than I would like to. Most KOs usually end up with me just up throwing the person I am facing for a quick kill because they will be sitting at 150 or higher while I will be sitting at around 40%.

Other than the fact I am terrible at playing aggressive when I need to, I feel like my biggest weakness is currently when the opponent can easily recover from below the stage. I have no real problem going for it when they are recovering horizontal, but vertical recovers from below are a real issue. Any tips other than going for a fast fall counter if their up B is a move that attacks?
Dat training him wrong meme xD

Marth's tipper advantage is something you shouldn't let get to you. You made a choice to go with Lucina over Marth, so its a matchup you'll have to adjust to. The losing is a definite requirement before improvement will start to show. Trust me, I was in your position not too long ago when I was fighting my tournament going friend. Don't let that negative feeling set in, and keep building on your skill.

Securing the kill is always something that every player needs to figure out with their characters. Even with vectoring gone, as Marth, I sometimes struggle to get the kill. Its a feeling every player has, especially when they fight an opponent of equal or higher skill. Remember the fundamentals of spacing, as your Smash attacks are what will get you more kills than anything else in those high percents. Offstage gimping is your other option to rack up damage and get kills. That isn't something that can easily be taught via text (as what I say here or on my guide is about the best I can do for ya), you'll have to go out there and be brave. Learn to read your opponent's recovery, then stage spike/gimp them.

Playing agro is a bit difficult for Marth and Lucina, but that's not to say that it cannot be done. From my own definition of agro Marth/Lucina, you throw out moves in anticipation of your opponent's best options are. Baiting will still be integral to your style, but you're applying pressure and leaving no room to breathe. It's borrowing from Jeet Kune Do's principle of intercepting your opponent before they move, but I'd say it applies to all agro fighting styles - including for Marth and Lucina

When chasing opponents offstage, your FAir and BAirs will be your primary tools. Depending on your opponent's positioning, you have to use one or the other to deliver the blow you need to end them. Rely on that range you have and space yourself well, and normally their Up B recoveries can't best your sword.

If we can get some footage (or I fight ya on 3DS Smash xD) then I can get an idea of what you need to improve to help ya a little better. Either way, don't give up dude!
 

Duet

Smash Cadet
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Nov 25, 2014
Messages
62
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requiemlacrimosa
If only it were that easy. I would love to go up against a decent marth/lucina player because I can't seem to find many people who even play them let alone ones that are any better than I am. For now, my Marth amiibo seems to be my best option. Unfortunately, my 3ds's A button is completely jacked and it doesn't register about 60% of the time I hit it, so I actually had to sit out for a majority of the time before the wii u version came out. That and the fact that I have no idea where on earth my capture card is from when I used to stream games kind of hinders me a bit.
 

EternalFlame

Smash Ace
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Oct 10, 2014
Messages
525
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Eterna1Flame
3DS FC
1993-8719-0815
If only it were that easy. I would love to go up against a decent marth/lucina player because I can't seem to find many people who even play them let alone ones that are any better than I am. For now, my Marth amiibo seems to be my best option. Unfortunately, my 3ds's A button is completely jacked and it doesn't register about 60% of the time I hit it, so I actually had to sit out for a majority of the time before the wii u version came out. That and the fact that I have no idea where on earth my capture card is from when I used to stream games kind of hinders me a bit.
Well if you're willing to settle with fighting against me when I pick up the WiiU version, again, I'll be more than happy to help you out with getting better (just as you can help me improve xD). That's a bummer that your 3DS got taken out, as that would have been the more immediate means of training together.

Though if you can find that capture card, that'll be cool xD But we'll have opportunities to help ya get better either way. Don't let this setback get to ya ^^
 

CherubiKnighT

"KnighT Of Mystery" CherubiKnighT
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Well if you're willing to settle with fighting against me when I pick up the WiiU version, again, I'll be more than happy to help you out with getting better (just as you can help me improve xD). That's a bummer that your 3DS got taken out, as that would have been the more immediate means of training together.

Though if you can find that capture card, that'll be cool xD But we'll have opportunities to help ya get better either way. Don't let this setback get to ya ^^
You better get it soon :3
 

CherubiKnighT

"KnighT Of Mystery" CherubiKnighT
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Christmas time is just around the corner xD I'll have it by then, that I can almost assure you
Ill be waiting. In the mean time I will keep uploading videos and trying my hardest to challenge fate. First tournament for Wii U is this Saturday. The time has come.
 

EternalFlame

Smash Ace
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Eterna1Flame
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Ill be waiting. In the mean time I will keep uploading videos and trying my hardest to challenge fate. First tournament for Wii U is this Saturday. The time has come.
Haha, got my own fate to challenge on that day too. Time to rock those exams! xD
 

PrincessLucina

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
20
It seems that in most of my play with Luci that I usually KO with her by using an aerial as they try to return to the stage. So satisfying! Especially that d-air meteor smash. I have trouble landing it properly sometimes but it feels great (and is an almost definite KO) when it hits.
Shield breaker then a charged up side smash is also good, assuming the shield breaker, well, broke the shield.
Good luck training!
 

CherubiKnighT

"KnighT Of Mystery" CherubiKnighT
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It seems that in most of my play with Luci that I usually KO with her by using an aerial as they try to return to the stage. So satisfying! Especially that d-air meteor smash. I have trouble landing it properly sometimes but it feels great (and is an almost definite KO) when it hits.
Shield breaker then a charged up side smash is also good, assuming the shield breaker, well, broke the shield.
Good luck training!
Verbatim. I uploaded a video of meteor smash. Oh so good!
 

CommanderRin

Smash Journeyman
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Susazu-And-Rin
Thought I'd throw my NNID in here since I noticed @ EternalFlame EternalFlame and @ Duet Duet talking about playing together online!

Lucina waifu op plz

Also, I don't know what you guys do for killing, but I typically punish with Up Smash and try my best to gimp off stage.

Sometimes I'm able to use F-Smash for the killing blow if I make a good read.
It's probably just more reliable to go for gimping, so I think we should all do our best to get that down pat!

NNID: Susazu-And-Rin
 
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EternalFlame

Smash Ace
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Eterna1Flame
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Thought I'd throw my NNID in here since I noticed @ EternalFlame EternalFlame and @ Duet Duet talking about playing together online!

Lucina waifu op plz

Also, I don't know what you guys do for killing, but I typically punish with Up Smash and try my best to gimp off stage.

Sometimes I'm able to use F-Smash for the killing blow if I make a good read.
It's probably just more reliable to go for gimping, so I think we should all do our best to get that down pat!

NNID: Susazu-And-Rin
I'll be more than happy to play ya Rin xD though unfortunately I do not yet own the WiiU version. Though I'll be picking it up during Christmas time ^^ And I can add ya then.

Also, I'll throw up my Skype here too if in case you'd want to talk to me there (I'm more easily reached there and there's also the calls too xD). It's Kusanag194, and I should be the only one with that name. Any other Marths/Lucinas that want to add me are free to as well xD (just be sure to clarify the reason for the add in the Hopefully we can all help each other improve for Smash.

Yeah, the Up Smash with Lucina especially is really good for the kills. Gimping is probably the way both Lucina and Marth take care of their opponents outside of reads with the Smash attacks.
 

eshu125

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Messages
93
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Denver, Colorado
I like to approach it similarly as getting the kill as falco in brawl. All your kill options are slow and obvious, so your best bet is to play around their shield and wait for them to do a dumb defensive option (spot-dodge, roll), read, and punish with a solid fsmash or up-smash.

If they just sit there in shield, simply grab. You can rack up a lot of dmg through pummeling at high percents and now that vectoring is gone she can kill anyone with up-throw at 140-170 depending on how much rage you have.

So basically your kill options are just like falco's in brawl except you have one of the strongest up-throws in the game. Be grateful for that!
 

EternalFlame

Smash Ace
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Eterna1Flame
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I like to approach it similarly as getting the kill as falco in brawl. All your kill options are slow and obvious, so your best bet is to play around their shield and wait for them to do a dumb defensive option (spot-dodge, roll), read, and punish with a solid fsmash or up-smash.

If they just sit there in shield, simply grab. You can rack up a lot of dmg through pummeling at high percents and now that vectoring is gone she can kill anyone with up-throw at 140-170 depending on how much rage you have.

So basically your kill options are just like falco's in brawl except you have one of the strongest up-throws in the game. Be grateful for that!
I seriously do need to use my up throw more xD I've neglected how useful that is for killing at higher percents

Verbatim. I uploaded a video of meteor smash. Oh so good!
Which reminds me Cherubi, you still need to tell me when you're streaming xD I can't join if I don't know when you're up doing so
 

CherubiKnighT

"KnighT Of Mystery" CherubiKnighT
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I seriously do need to use my up throw more xD I've neglected how useful that is for killing at higher percents


Which reminds me Cherubi, you still need to tell me when you're streaming xD I can't join if I don't know when you're up doing so
Just go here http://www.twitch.tv/cherubiknight and follow it will give you notifications
 

Duet

Smash Cadet
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Nov 25, 2014
Messages
62
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requiemlacrimosa
I ended up finding my capture card, so I guess I will work on uploading some videos of my terrible Lucina play to the video thread since this thread has pretty much run its course. I don't really know if that is even an appropriate place though since most of my matches consist of me being pretty decent 70% of the time and then either SDing and losing, or **** like this happening...


I think at this point we can just determine that the best way for Lucina to get the kill is from getting really good reads on the opponent as well as gimping them off stage. I have been mixing it up with a few new characters instead of going soley Lucina and you can really see where she is lacking since her spike is hard as hell to land and she doesn't really have any miraculous combos like some of the top tier characters, but I will still keep maining her.
 

EternalFlame

Smash Ace
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Eterna1Flame
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I ended up finding my capture card, so I guess I will work on uploading some videos of my terrible Lucina play to the video thread since this thread has pretty much run its course. I don't really know if that is even an appropriate place though since most of my matches consist of me being pretty decent 70% of the time and then either SDing and losing, or **** like this happening...

I think at this point we can just determine that the best way for Lucina to get the kill is from getting really good reads on the opponent as well as gimping them off stage. I have been mixing it up with a few new characters instead of going soley Lucina and you can really see where she is lacking since her spike is hard as hell to land and she doesn't really have any miraculous combos like some of the top tier characters, but I will still keep maining her.
Marth is really no better, as he also has to read his opponent well in order to get the stock. Though based on your gameplay videos that you've uploaded, you're not as terrible as you're making yourself sound. I mean you did get the FAir > DAir spike; something I can't do for the life of me xD Spiking is difficult with Marth/Lucina, and honestly, I find stage spiking more efficient than anything else. Although, you gotta let go of the negative mindset (with calling yourself terrible) and just focus on improving. SDs happen, but we keep practicing to minimalize that from happening. You're Lucina is alright, I just think you need to understand your playstyle, then find moves and such that will complement it.

If I can make a base assessment of your Lucina, it seems you're more inclined towards defensive play over offensive. A lot of the time you wait for your opponent to engage you first, and only when they're particularly slow (like Ike) do you try to be a bit more offensive with your playstyle. Projectile based users will take advantage of you staying still though, as that Falco fight was demonstrating earlier on. But you caught onto it quick enough and managed to even things out. I can provide more analysis of what I think you could do, but it's up to you if you want me to type it or not. I want to help develop your style of play, not just make a duplicate of myself cus its you that's playing. Lucina doesn't need fancy combos to be successful, only careful and calculated movements and reads will secure your victory
 

Duet

Smash Cadet
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requiemlacrimosa
Yeah, my defensive game is way better than my offense. I can't fight faster characters for the life of me. Any tips are appreciated, that is why I am here.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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8,413
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Her side-b combo kills at respectable percents and is incredible fast considering the KO power of the finishing hit.
 
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EternalFlame

Smash Ace
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Oct 10, 2014
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525
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Eterna1Flame
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Yeah, my defensive game is way better than my offense. I can't fight faster characters for the life of me. Any tips are appreciated, that is why I am here.
Well, I'm more trying to analyse your preferred fighting style, and it's not to say you can't learn to do agro; more like you're tilting towards being defensive. Alrighty then, time to go through some defensive playstyles (which conveniently, I will have a recording to display just that soon enough xD).

Anyways, here's what I've got from analysing your playstyle:
Considering that you are more defensive rather than offensive, then getting to an out of shield grab, trap, or jump cancel Up B (at higher percents) will be most of the tools you will use. Here I'll cover a couple of things and what you could do with them based on your playstyle.

walk/run cancel shield:
Just because you are defensive does not mean you should stay still against your opponent. That said, you should move around and cancel your movement with the shield when you feel threatened by your opponent. This not only keeps them from dominating the pace of the fight, but it also adds pressure that a defensive player should display for being there to punish mistakes.From what I saw, you already know how to do this, so I won't recap on it (otherwise, you can check on my guide under the Dash cancel shield in the basics section for more details). Anyways, you want to condition your opponent to think that he could try to attack you, but you block it and go into something else. Practicing to perfect/power shield too is key towards gaining the upper hand against aggro opponents, especially fast characters and projectile users. Projectile users especially will force you to agro them more than the other way around, but safely poke using the FAir assault tactic and NAir, and it should keep you safe for the most part. You should also use this more than your standard running grab if you can help it, as it is much safer than the latter.

Out of shield options:
As you already know, these options will be your most utilized tools in a defensive playstyle. Your grabs, especially your up throw, will be important towards racking up the damage and eventually getting the kills. If your opponent approaches in the air, more times than not you will be able to shield whatever they throw at you and grab them. Another option available to you is your shield cancel jump, which allows immediate retaliation no matter the the blockstun. As soon as the attack seems safe to retaliate from, quickly SH/FH and attack with either the FAir or NAir. This jump cancel also has the function of going into your Up Smash, which is much more useful in Lucina's hands than Marth's. Essentially, as you press the jump button, immediately perform the Up Smash attack, and it will take priority over actually jumping. So this can be used to counter opponents that land behind you. Once around 60% or more, you'll have the option to combine the jump cancel with your dolphin slash, which is an incredibly fast and high priority move. It is not invincible by any means, but it can be a great way to retailiate and get your opponent off stage (though you may be better off with a grab more than anything else.

When not in shield:
Not all opponents will simply keep attacking for you to keep countering them as you know; they will likely go for grab mixups or even moves that are safe to poke with and keep chipping at your shield. It is at this point where you will need to outspace them with Lucina's normals. Starting with FTilt and UTilt, these two options are used to catch your opponents as they jump towards or above you. You want to keep them at a sword's length away at all times to keep the defensive stance. Your Dtilt is used to safely poke at your opponent if they land infront of you and/or try to enter a shield state as well. You want to get a reaction using the Dtilt, otherwise keep poking till they try to spot dodge or roll to either side, then turn around FTilt/FAir/DB them as they complete it. Jab is also another great option for this, and can be used as an anti air setup into another attack (will be writing on this on my guide right now actually, may finish by tonight or tomorrow xD). Safely poke, but keep track of your shield's damage at all times. These not in shield options is to keep your opponents off and give time for your shield to recover, so use them as you feel is appropriate.

Pivot Ftilts/FSmashes/grabs:
Needless to say, there will be moments where you may need to retreat to keep your opponent from getting too close to you. If ever you feel threatened by a running up grab or attack, run backwards and try for one of these options to keep you covered. As soon as they see any of these, most characters will back off a bit, giving you a bit of time to breathe and focus your thoughts on your next attack. Never let your opponent dictate the pace, as speed characters especially want this in order to punish you. Another important note to make is that FTilt and FSmashes can be risky against fast characters, as the commitment if read correctly can lead to you being combo punished. So your best option is the pivot grab outside of the above options.

Going on the attack:
Playing defensive won't always get you the stock, so you'll also need to learn to attack them when you get your chance. Stick with the fundamental NAir or FAir assault, like mentioned earlier, to press your advantage forward and get them off stage. From here, follow the advice I gave earlier for your offstage tactics and keep racking the damage like so. If you can get the read, go for your SB or FSmash, but don't use them often unless you see a good opportunity to hit them.

Primary objective:
Here's the important part for all of this I've put out for ya; you're not looking to kill your opponent as quickly as possible. A defensive game will pick at their opponents thoughts and keep walling out their options. As soon as a point of weakness shows up, you're ready to finish them off with a gimp or Smash. If it means that you'll keep racking up the damage to extremely high percents (like 150%), don't feel like you're in a hurry to finish them off. Keep yourself safe as best as you can, and if ever they go to that percent, you'll be able to up throw them to finish them off right there. Take your time, and the results will pay off in the long run.

... And that should cover it. Since I play passive agressive style, I only have so much I know on playing more towards defensive style (though I do have to use this against faster opponents). This won't be your end all be all stuff; its only suggestions as to how a defensive style would look like for Marth/Lucina. Hopefully these tips will help foster your own growth with Lucina and make the playstyle your own.
 

Daybreak

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It's pretty fun to bait them in with SH's and F-Air's, then at some point poke them with Shield Breaker or F-Smash. Mix it up. It helped me take on opponents who would rush and/or play coy. Give them bait that they cannot resist, then drop the ban hammer. Follow ups are nice as well, use mind-games, learn landing lag of moves for said mind-games, and remember risk vs reward. If they can't hit you, you won't take damage.
 

Hapsby

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
13
I don't know what the etiquette is for setting up training sessions on the boards, but Duet, I would be happy to spar with you sometime with my Lucina. I feel I am average, but who knows, maybe we can teach each other something.
 

EternalFlame

Smash Ace
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I don't know what the etiquette is for setting up training sessions on the boards, but Duet, I would be happy to spar with you sometime with my Lucina. I feel I am average, but who knows, maybe we can teach each other something.
I think just asking like this will do just fine xD Either this or perhaps a PM/conversation message may have worked to the same effect. Now all ya gotta do is wait for Duet's response
 

Duet

Smash Cadet
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requiemlacrimosa
If you want to play you can just pm me on here or add me on skype, my skype name is the same as my nnid. Im always down for some matches.
 

EternalFlame

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If you want to play you can just pm me on here or add me on skype, my skype name is the same as my nnid. Im always down for some matches.
As I recall, we also had some promised matches too that I should collect on at some point xD But now the problem is scheduling differences
 

Duet

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requiemlacrimosa
As I recall, we also had some promised matches too that I should collect on at some point xD But now the problem is scheduling differences
Whenever you are available just hit me up.
 

CherubiKnighT

"KnighT Of Mystery" CherubiKnighT
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Tomorrow is paragon. I gotten 7th and 3rd in my previous tournaments. This is by far the biggest one.
 

LoreLes

Smash Apprentice
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Duet, hit me up if you're interested in playing. I'm a Marth player but I can definitely show you a thing or two about these characters. My input on getting the kill between these two characters is patience and dedication. Playing these two literally means putting yourself in a position that they aren't getting the kill but as a player you get it for them.

I'll add more input if you're down.
 
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