Donkey Kong has a custom side b.
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Getting serious about policy and the early metagame
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
Leonyx
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2014
- Messages
- 118
- NNID
- Leonyx3
- 3DS FC
- 2638-1926-1616
Oh yeah, you're right. My mistake.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Ampharos I agree with almost everything you said but I do seriously think that additional options on moves can in fact help smash more then hurt it. I kinda wish I saw this thread first but I posted a set of guidelines earlier today that I feel would work.
Guidelines
Wait at least 1 year or two tier list before changes are made
Never used to nerf a character
Bottom and low tier characters are the only one's that can be improved
Limited to 1 to maybe 2 changes made between tier list and only if they continue to be bot/low tier
Not all characters bot/low have to be changed
Personally, I don't trust Sakurai or his team ability in making a balance system of additional options on moves and I especially don't expect some sort of elaborate system of customization. It's good Sakurai is embracing more of the competitive spirit but Smash is still a party game in his eyes so I'm expecting 4 options on what version of a move you want.
Guidelines
Wait at least 1 year or two tier list before changes are made
Never used to nerf a character
Bottom and low tier characters are the only one's that can be improved
Limited to 1 to maybe 2 changes made between tier list and only if they continue to be bot/low tier
Not all characters bot/low have to be changed
Personally, I don't trust Sakurai or his team ability in making a balance system of additional options on moves and I especially don't expect some sort of elaborate system of customization. It's good Sakurai is embracing more of the competitive spirit but Smash is still a party game in his eyes so I'm expecting 4 options on what version of a move you want.
BBG|Scott-Spain
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2014
- Messages
- 286
I agree. Let the metagame develop as is and get a tier lists together before we start talking changes.
QuickRat
Smash Journeyman
Last year, in the city I live in, there was a little Pokémon X/Y tournament. You get there, plug your 3DS to the TV (there was a special cartridge) and fight in local mode (wireless). Everybody could see the battle on those big TV screens and the contestants could use their respective 3DS. I think this is not a problem. In fact, is the same issue as always. I mean, in a Smash tournament, you should carry your own pad. In a Smash 3DS tournament, you carry your 3DS. It's not that bad.
warionumbah2
Smash Master
3DS is a lost cause. Its only there to show use how the fighting system works and the hidden characters.
The Wii U is where everyone will come together and play, 3ds controls is weird for me i prefer using the gamecube controller via the usb plug which goes into the wii remote and bam!
I'm not gonna waste my money on the 3ds version i have MK8 for those months plus i have my Wii U which is still in its fricken box, can't keep it in there for another 3 or so months. Screw the 3ds game i can watch youtube videos or discussions on here if i want info.
The Wii U is where everyone will come together and play, 3ds controls is weird for me i prefer using the gamecube controller via the usb plug which goes into the wii remote and bam!
I'm not gonna waste my money on the 3ds version i have MK8 for those months plus i have my Wii U which is still in its fricken box, can't keep it in there for another 3 or so months. Screw the 3ds game i can watch youtube videos or discussions on here if i want info.
Empyrean
Smash Champion
I feel like this game shouldn't get the Melee treatment, nor the Brawl treatment, ruleset-wise. Keep all stages on (except the obviously illegal ones like Palutena's Temple), experiment a bit with custom movesets, try having 4-stock and 3-stock elimination matches, see which one works better. We shouldn't impose a predetermined ruleset on Smash 4, we should really treat it like its own game, as if other Smash games haven't existed. In this regard, some stuff will become apparent thanks to the 3DS version releasing early. We'll have a general idea of how the game works, what stages can stay (even though they are different on both systems), how long matches are supposed to be, etc. This way, by the time Smash Wii U hits the shelves, part of the ruleset will hopefully been agreed on.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
3DS vs. Wii U
I agree with Amazing Ampharos that one form of smash four should win out, and be supported, and that no one should be butthurt about letting the other form fall wayside. I'm not totally convinced the console version is going to be that winner though. There's various reasons I think the 3DS could possibly be the better platform, but it's sort of irrelevant, we'll see when we get there. Supporting too many forms of smash can put a drain on resources and I don't condone going for both.
So I agree in spirit.
Pitfalls of Additional Options
Here I disagree, very heavily.
I am not opposed to taking the smash game we get handed and playing it as it is, altering the default rules only as truly necessary.
I'm also not opposed to taking the smash game we get handed, spending a few months fiddling with the settings and making drastic ruleset changes that impact balance, and then freezing those changes early in the lifespan. Whether it's damage ratio, timer, custom movesets, stages, food on low yo; any aspect of the game that is easily modified in about two minutes before a match.
What I am opposed to is doing half of each, which is what you propose. What we know so far about the default rules is FD only, no items, no custom movesets. I don't recall your position on items, but you're arguing that we adhere to the default setting on custom movesets in order to avoid struggles between changes seeking to buff and nerf characters, but in the same breath suggesting that we have those same struggles as Wario players lobby to get Brinstar legal and Little Mac lobbies to ban platforms.
Direct and indirect impacts have the same result, and the self interest issues are equally present in both cases. You need to pick one philosophy or the other. Either brave the 10,000 forum posts to add variety to the stagelist and the 10,000 additional forum posts to add diversity to the movesets, or the 10 forum posts to determine that none of the versions of FD have a game breaking bug. If you make the effort on the stagelist and not on the movesets, you're going to have Link players coming in and being confused and upset when they aren't allowed to use their super up B to bring them to the middle of mid tier, and rightfully so, because they'll be playing cloggy Link on carefully mixed set of floaty but not too floaty stages that brings Luigi up to the middle of mid tier, and the reason the two will have received such different treatment is because-melee tradition that is not actually improving anyone's experience.
I would actually be tickled if everyone just used the For Glory ruleset as it is, because there's every indication that competitive balancing in beta testing will take place on FD, and it makes it easier for new players to transition into the scene, and it is probably the ruleset Japan will be using (last time around making a fancy ruleset seemed to make us miss enough fundamentals that Japan could fly over here and kick our hides on our own ruleset with just a couple of their players.)
But I'm not wishful enough to expect that to happen, and if it did happen it wouldn't be cause I said anything about it, it'd be because people play enough for glory mode that they decide they don't want to switch gears for tournaments.
I am wishful that I can at least encourage an internally consistent approach to the ruleset, though. If you're going to make design changes to the default competitive stagelist, make similar changes to permitted movesets, gravity, and every other setting there is.
I agree with Amazing Ampharos that one form of smash four should win out, and be supported, and that no one should be butthurt about letting the other form fall wayside. I'm not totally convinced the console version is going to be that winner though. There's various reasons I think the 3DS could possibly be the better platform, but it's sort of irrelevant, we'll see when we get there. Supporting too many forms of smash can put a drain on resources and I don't condone going for both.
So I agree in spirit.
Pitfalls of Additional Options
Here I disagree, very heavily.
I am not opposed to taking the smash game we get handed and playing it as it is, altering the default rules only as truly necessary.
I'm also not opposed to taking the smash game we get handed, spending a few months fiddling with the settings and making drastic ruleset changes that impact balance, and then freezing those changes early in the lifespan. Whether it's damage ratio, timer, custom movesets, stages, food on low yo; any aspect of the game that is easily modified in about two minutes before a match.
What I am opposed to is doing half of each, which is what you propose. What we know so far about the default rules is FD only, no items, no custom movesets. I don't recall your position on items, but you're arguing that we adhere to the default setting on custom movesets in order to avoid struggles between changes seeking to buff and nerf characters, but in the same breath suggesting that we have those same struggles as Wario players lobby to get Brinstar legal and Little Mac lobbies to ban platforms.
Direct and indirect impacts have the same result, and the self interest issues are equally present in both cases. You need to pick one philosophy or the other. Either brave the 10,000 forum posts to add variety to the stagelist and the 10,000 additional forum posts to add diversity to the movesets, or the 10 forum posts to determine that none of the versions of FD have a game breaking bug. If you make the effort on the stagelist and not on the movesets, you're going to have Link players coming in and being confused and upset when they aren't allowed to use their super up B to bring them to the middle of mid tier, and rightfully so, because they'll be playing cloggy Link on carefully mixed set of floaty but not too floaty stages that brings Luigi up to the middle of mid tier, and the reason the two will have received such different treatment is because-melee tradition that is not actually improving anyone's experience.
I would actually be tickled if everyone just used the For Glory ruleset as it is, because there's every indication that competitive balancing in beta testing will take place on FD, and it makes it easier for new players to transition into the scene, and it is probably the ruleset Japan will be using (last time around making a fancy ruleset seemed to make us miss enough fundamentals that Japan could fly over here and kick our hides on our own ruleset with just a couple of their players.)
But I'm not wishful enough to expect that to happen, and if it did happen it wouldn't be cause I said anything about it, it'd be because people play enough for glory mode that they decide they don't want to switch gears for tournaments.
I am wishful that I can at least encourage an internally consistent approach to the ruleset, though. If you're going to make design changes to the default competitive stagelist, make similar changes to permitted movesets, gravity, and every other setting there is.
Last edited:
RODO
Smash Ace
As much as the things said about the 3DS in the OP sound harsh, I can't help but agree. I would never say that we should ignore those fans, and we should allow it if there are enough people willing to play, but really Smash Wii U is the same game with better graphics, more control options, is easier to play with friends (only need one console not multiple ones), easier to watch/spectate, etc just with different stages. It should be the standard if you look at it that way. It would be cool if 3DS owners could play Wii U owners somehow.