Getting back on the level against Marth - An inquisitive thread looking for options.

[Plairnkk]

First off, let me start by saying I really wanna hear what experienced players have to say about this, so if you're new or just not that good as a whole, please just refrain from posting - read - and try to absorb some info.

So basically here's the deal.

Step 1: The actual process of being thrown/HIT off

When a Marth first down throws you or hits you off the stage, they are going to do one of two things. They will either Fsmash hoping you jump into it attempting to get back on, or they will wavedash onto the ledge and attempt to force you to get onto the stage, then punish you, usually with another grab and continuing the sequence.

When playing Sheik, what is your usual approach when being thrown off? What are some alternatives to jumping and trying to F-air the Marth away? I just want to get some outside input from other talented players, and maybe open my mind to more options because when I'm thrown off, I feel very limited.

Step 2: Once you're hanging on the ledge

Okay so now you've gotten back on the ledge and are hanging there with Marth standing on the stage waiting for you.

What do you guys do here? The Marth stands still and waits, then if you get up regular grabs or Fsmashes, or if you roll they react to it, re-grab you, and restart the process at the beginning. Wavedashing onto the stage is useful, but if the marth times an fsmash well you lose your jump getting back on. So who has some more good options they'd like to share?

Step 3: Standing on the level with Marth in front of you

Okay so now you've gotten back to the stage, gotten on the level, and now are standing right next to the edge with Marth staring at you. He's probably either spacing f-airs or neutral airs at this point backing you into the stage. What do you do in said situation? I really am at a loss of options at this point. All Marths just wait for the roll. When i asked NEO what to do in this situation he goes "I don't know, I usually just roll." If you try to jump and throw a needle, you risk getting aerialed off the stage and the process starting again. If you roll, you're grabbed and the process starts again. If you try to just throw a needle, you can just get Fsmashed. A lot of times the Marth will just pressure me back on the edge and then Im stuck back at step 2. So i'm looking for some more ideas and options.

Overall

In no way am I bad against Marth, I'm just trying to perfect the matchup and I feel that getting back on the level is the hardest thing for me at this point and the only thing holding me back whatsoever.


Input is appreciated, but please, only people who know what they're talking about.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

plank, dont be a scrub, thats how you do it

if you want to mix it up in other ways than the obvious roll airial or needle try triangle jumping or just airdodging directly into his face (not as a wavedash OBVIOUSLY) into a spotdodge, hopefully he will mistime his grab (he likely will) which leads you into a combo of your own into midstage

just ducking a couple times into a sheild actually tends to trick marth players because it just looks so abnormal, they'll likely fsmash you or something like that and it'll just hit your sheild

needle CHARGE into sheild/spotdodge also works, they try to punish the charge pretty quickly most of the time


why is a bowser main helping one of the best sheik's in the nation? wtf am i thinking

i mean, you should just roll. EVERY TIME. EVERY. TIME. vs ANY character. ESPECIALLY bowser

roll and then just sit in your sheild. TOTALLY safe.

EDIT: these are obviously refering to when you are actually on the stage, but the airdodging one is also useful when you are hanging on the ledge

i have to be good at avoiding gimp kills as bowser vs marth so i have lots and lots of experience in anti gimping haha

 

[Drephen]

1.) I usually do a few things depending on how far i get thrown off or what the marth does after the down throw. If i can i will jump and air dodge back to the stage trying to get rid of the lag. Also what i do is wait as long as possible off the stage to see what the marth does and either a)wait untill his invicibility runs out and fair him or b) up b straight into the ledge so they get off thinking you are going onto the stage.

2-3.) i ALWAYS wavedash onto the ledge and after doing so go straight into a shield. I can usually predict if they are gonna try to grab me or not so i might spam sidesteps after shielding. After whatever move they make i dodge it and go back into the middle of the stage. If the marth just stands there and shields i go for the grab. But i never jump when cornered, always stay on the ground.


hope it helps plank

 

[Aesis]

Stage 1: I usually Up+B as soon as possible in a way that when I vanish if they're too close they get hit by the explosion. It happens to HugS a few times in that silly money match video I put up on YouTube (LOL). By positioning yourself at the moment you vanish where you can either get the ledge or far onto the stage, you limit how much damage you're going to take from Marth's rinse and repeat ledgehog fsmash/grab combos. The vanishing scares him from ledgehogging, and gets you to stage 2...

Stage 2: WD onto the stage. Or like Gimpy said, air dodge in his face and anticipate the Fsmash. Worst thing that happens is you get waited out, and grabbed again or Fsmashed which you can DI and try again. I find WD onto the stage the best. Up+B stall until you regain your composure and think about what to do, then immediately after you Up+B stall, WD to stage. You should have some invincibility frames. Shield, sidestep, jab, or needle after the WD. Easy!


EDIT: Oh, nvm. Drephen beat me to it

Stage 3: Don't be in tipper range. Run up and shield. Be aggressive at this point anticipating a retreating nair or dash dance to grabs from Marth. Jump and needle cancel waveland grab? Tons of opportunities. Run through him and get to the middle, but watch out for that nair XD

Marth is hard if he knows what to do.
Best advice I always say about Sheiks that, IMO, trumps "dsmash and grab" is
KEEP MOVING

Slow camper sheiks don't work anymore, I say. Fast camper sheiks do HAHAHA

Anticipating our MM Plairrnk XD

 

[Tope]

1.

Low percents
If you're going for the fair might as well go for the needle canceled backair has more range and a longer hitbox. Also sometimes I immediately go for the UP+B even before double jumping, the quicker you get to the invincibility to better, from there you can always pick which direction to go. (Very risky)
Air dodging back works too.

Mid percents

Two options, go low and hopefully dodge the edgeguard and sweetspot the ledge with UP+B, or come straight on to the stage through some combination of airdodge, UP+B, and ariels. Pick one and do it immediately, the less time you spend in the air the better.

High percents

Recently I've found that turning to Zelda isn't so bad against Marth, just gotta watch the tipper/utilt and DI correctly.


2.

I have to agree with Drephen and suggest WDing on to the stage is probably the most safe, you have to do it immediatly however. Once you hit the WD either side step, jab, or shield as those are the best options. On Dreamland and FoD I like jumping from the ledge, using the normal ledge jump. The angle is so weird it throws people off. (Used sparingly)
You could always try the shino stall, I hear that's becoming popular.

3.

Often I just dash attack, if you space it correctly on his shield you go past him, where he what? UP+B's out of shield, dairs? Neither lead to your immediate death. I also enjoy sitting in shield and trying to react what he's doing. Fsmash for surprise factor always.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

i know i´m nowhere near as good as the others that posted here, but a thing i occasionally do is,

after getting to the ledge safe, shino stall 1-2 times.
the marth, if he doesnt WD to the stage will propably wait for you to try to get up and punish you with a nair or f-smash

now, you do a Up-b , but immeadiatly try to get on the stage, and hit the Marth with an explosion.
either he is caught of guard, and you hit him, or he shields, which will hopefully send him towards the edge, and you towards the middle of the satge, and you´ll either get f-smashed across the stage or grabed and back/downthrown (i dont know which one is used to throw behind)

this might not work at all against real good players, but it works at lower and mid-level players, if you use it maybe once or twice a set

hope you understand what i´m talking about, would appreaciate some feedback... (usefull in any way, or not)

 

[Plairnkk]

yeah ive done this a few times, but as you said, it has to be used sparingly. If a marth expects it they can punish you any way you choose after your land with your up+b lag. Its a good thought though

 

[soap]

!.perfect the wavedash onto stage, it should look like you actually wavedashed and not triangle jumped, youve got invinicibility frames that guarantee you actually land on the stage so you should never be losing your second jump, then what drew and tope and have been saying, although i like ledgedashing into ftilts or dtilts, they have more range than jabs and will clank with the fsmash. but the spacing has to be right, i use this against marths that back up slightly anticipating my wavedash. Best option, but not every time cuz you get so predictable, you'll end up getting grabbed more than you should.

2. Normal ledge jump, altough riskier against marth cuz he can just utilt and smash and doesnt have to jump after you, but do the jump di bak and after they jumped to try and hit you double jump bak at them and fair. if they dont jump sometimes ill di back fastfall slightly past the ledge and double jump instantly into some needles or an aerial, it throws them off cuz they were expecting the pause of you grabbing the ledge first. i also Di forward then fastfall through the platforms.

3. I can shino stall forever, so sometimes when they're just sitting there waiting, ill start shino stalling, they'll back up a little, then ill jump charge wait till i fall slightly past the ledge so i get a cuple more needles, store and use the first half of the upb to grab the ledge. they usually get pissed that im sitting there charging needles while they're trying to edgeguard and ill ledgehop a fair as they run in or do another stall.

 

[Drephen]

man this thread is too good, all the awsome sheik players coming in giving advice. I'd like to see bloodofthefallen, dsf, forward, kdj's opinion as well

 

[ArcNatural]

Shino stalls to either a wavedash or a airdodge onto the stage, plus the occasionaly ledgehop aerial if they leave themselves open. The aerial dodge works surprising well sometimes, especially when you can airdodge to platforms on occasion. Both of these situations are the best since you will be a little bit away from the edge so you have a little more room to manuever.

As far as when you get up on the stage. It sounds like you already put yourself into the defensive position. Maybe if you successfully make it onto the stage you should try to be much more aggressive since they may just be taking advantage of your interpretation of the situation. Possible mindgame situation but I hate the word.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

man this thread is too good, all the awsome sheik players coming in giving advice. I'd like to see bloodofthefallen, dsf, forward, kdj's opinion as well

yeayuhz, i'm one of those awesome sheik players thats already posted har har har

 

[BigRick]

giving this thread some love...

<33333

 

[xelad1]

Even though I'm no where near probably anyone's level who has posted here so far (why the hell is plank asking for advice about sheik anyway?) I think there are some general trends that work well for all characters when getting back on the stage. Like many other things in smash it really just seems to boil down to a guessing game of what your opponent expects from you (something which you mentioned a lot)... so I guess the first most important thing is um don't be predictable (duh?)

I find that many people whether it is against marths or other characters will predict you trying to overshoot the ledge and land on the stage when they edge hog because they feel they have closed off your option of sweetspotting. Most people that think this are a bit too hasty and leave the ledge before it is necessary so if I notice this pattern I will usually sweetspot since it is unexpected. I know this can be risky but it is a pretty obvious pattern to notice so it doesn't get messed up that often. Of course the opposite to this would be overshooting the ledge as far as possible to hopefully increase the chances that the marth will eventually mess up edgeguarding and just properly DI until you can get back safely. Shino stalling is of course not a bad idea and jumping back on with fairs against overeager marths works more often then I would expect it to. I feel like most of the time the safest way of getting back on is via air dodge onto the stage like gimpy mentioned... even when spammed it seems to NOT get you killed as opposed to other alternatives.

Mew2King mentioned to me (when I was actually asking for advice on HOW to edgeguard a sheik with marth) that it is extremely difficult and boils down to figuring out what they are most likely to do and waiting for someone to do a stupid mistake since people tend to act more pressured near the ledge. I guess you should just be happy you aren't playing falco, fox, or captain falcon... I personally don't find sheiks options to be nearly as bad as those characters.

 

[Boolossus]

I have recently run into this problem myself. Sheik's landing lag after up B is a pain. Like Drephen mentioned, I'd try to air-dodge onto the stage if I was close enough. If you happen to be higher than the stage, needles could work. As for hanging from the ledge... I'm sure that you can think of something.

If a Marth is hogging your sweetspot, you could always try... Zelda. She doesn't have as much landing lag as Sheik does, and she'll be able to warp out of harm's way most of the time. Of course, you wouldn't want to do this unless you're at least decent with Zelda. Hey, it beats landing right next to Marth and getting thrown/f-smashed back off the stage again.

 

[Shmooguy]

If I'm coming back and Marth is edgehogging I just make sure I don't get hit by a ledgehopped bair or dair. Also, if i have to use the 2nd part of the up B to get back to the stage, I try to space it so that the explosion will barely hit Marth if he's edgehogging.

If I'm too far away, I'll angle the up B so I barely land on the edge. Sometimes this confuses the Marth, because it takes them a split second longer to decide whether you're going to land on the stage or if staying on the edge will do the job, and sometimes that's enough.

If I'm closer, then i'll try to angle it so it looks like I'm vanishing to a platform, but really I'll be just under it. This also sometimes confuses them. Of course if they're smart it won't, but I'm just trying to add things that people haven't said already.

Once I'm on the edge, every once in awhile I'll make it look like I'm shino stalling, but I'll up B so that I land on the stage before I explode. It delays the explosion a bit (as you know already), and if you can get far enough towards the stage it'll hit the Marth. Kinda risky though, because if it doesn't they can punish pretty easily. Some Marth's will Fsmash you in the middle of your explosion though, since it catches them off guard and then you have more time to recover. I sometimes do that when coming back to the stage too, but it leaves you open for a ledgehopped bair if they're quick about it.

Oh yeah, doing an upB immediately instead of jumping first helps too so they whiff their attack; I think that's been said already though.

I usually counterpick DL64 vs Marth, because it takes longer for you to die and you can pretty much kill him anytime and because the higher platforms help a lot. I'll sometimes jump from the ledge on this stage and I'll get more opportunities to up B onto the platforms as well.

Also another thing I don't see a lot of sheiks doing from the edge is jumping and airdodging to a platform. I don't do it that much myself, but I'm pretty sure you can even reach dreamland platforms if you ledgehop airdodge up to it.

My experience has shown me that WDing onto the edge isn't as good as it may seem, because a Fsmash or dtilt will still hit you if they do it as you're still in landing lag. If I do WD, I'll usually go into a jab if they're close or a dtilt or buffer a roll with the c-stick and try to jab immediately after the roll. A lot of Marth's predict the roll as you said, but sometimes they get a little slow with it and they don't grab at the perfect time.

Also if you're just standing there and they're waiting for a roll, you can run up and dash attack. I know that sounds a lot easier than it is since it leaves you open to attacks and all, but if you do it sparsely then sometimes it works. I'm sure your prediction skills are better than mine too so I'm sure you could find the right time to do it.

I might not be as good as Drephen or Aesis, but I'm not bad by any means. If you really cared you could check my results from SCC; I didn't place that well but I can beat some good people.

-Kira

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Kira, smash skill has nothing to do with the validity of advice -- many players have great knowledge of the game but just aren't good enough to execute

 

[KevinM]

1.) I usually Spot dodge

2-3.) i ALWAYS downsmash

hope it helps plank

Fixed for truffles <33