Gerudo follow ups and Techchasing

[Gleam]

While still working on the RPG and Stuttered Stepped Grab, I have thus started working on something else. Something with really only one new bit of information (New as far I've seen.) that must be looked at.

I fought Dolphination yesterday, good matches, very good. However he did something (And thus credit should be given to him.) That I have never done, nor have ever seen another Ganon player do.

First things first. Everyone needs to get better a techchasing, even me. Everyone needs to concentrate and get better at predicting rolls after Gerudos. This isn't part of what Dolps did to me, but its something that everyone just needs to do.

But back to the other part. From what I've done, and who I've played, the best, or at least most used move after a Gerudo is a get up attack. Now here's the thing, everytime I used a get up attack, he shielded (obviously) but then countered attacked with a jab. Now at first I thought perhaps button lag, but then he kept doing it again and again. So today I went doing some brawl practice seeing something and yes...we can attack from a Gerudo, an opponents get up attack.

You should try to get to learn the characters get up attacks firstly. Being a bit technical here, but its true. You can shield, or powershield a get up attack with a Jab or as I've started to see an F-tilt.

So mainly Gerudos put us in the position in which we can basically do anything. So start working on it.

Any questions?

 

[@HomE]

I definatly need to get better at tech chasing after the Gerudo (its one of the weaker areas of my ganon) ill try this out and post my results..

Just for the record my personal favorite is when they roll behind ganon and I stomp them in the face. and im wondering... do you know if this is a guaranteed hit or not, or if it only works on certain chars.. it seems to be hit or miss with me, maybe im not getting enough distance when i TS...

 

[Z1GMA]

I use to do this too, mostly with Ftilt.. I tried against you Gleam, but the lag was just too interupting.

Also I use to walk into them slighty after the gerudo so I won't get pushed too far away by their GUA, then shieldgrab the GUA.

One thing I've started to do reasearch on is canceling out their GUA with an attack of my own, so that both players instantly goes to their normal stance.

And yes. We need to practice tech chasing.

EDIT: Gleam, when you Gerudo'd me, you peformed retreating TS followed by an advancing gerudo which seemed to always get me if i used GUA.. Does this cover both a "through ganon roll" and a GUA?

 

[Gleam]

I definatly need to get better at tech chasing after the Gerudo (its one of the weaker areas of my ganon) ill try this out and post my results..

Just for the record my personal favorite is when they roll behind ganon and I stomp them in the face. and im wondering... do you know if this is a guaranteed hit or not, or if it only works on certain chars.. it seems to be hit or miss with me, maybe im not getting enough distance when i TS...

I'm farily certain that you can Dair an opponent who rolls behind. I'm pretty sure this is guaranteed.

I use to do this too, mostly with Ftilt.. I tried against you Gleam, but the lag was just too interupting.

Also I use to walk into them slighty after the gerudo so I won't get pushed too far away by their GUA, then shieldgrab the GUA.

One thing I've started to do reasearch on is canceling out their GUA with an attack of my own, so that both players instantly goes to their normal stance.

And yes. We need to practice tech chasing.

EDIT: Gleam, when you Gerudo'd me, you peformed retreating TS followed by an advancing gerudo which seemed to always get me if i used GUA.. Does this cover both a "through ganon roll" and a GUA?

Well for me, before I knew about this whole Gerudo GUA counter my main reasons for doing that was to just...try and catch you off guard. In the hopes that if you didn't roll back, I could at least try to gerudo you again.

Not sure how else to answer your question though.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm farily certain that you can Dair an opponent who rolls behind. I'm pretty sure this is guaranteed.



Well for me, before I knew about this whole Gerudo GUA counter my main reasons for doing that was to just...try and catch you off guard. In the hopes that if you didn't roll back, I could at least try to gerudo you again.

Not sure how else to answer your question though.

Yea, thats the point.. if your TS didn't hit me, your Gerudo did..
I too think we all should try and find ways to higher the success % after gerudo..

 

[SaltyKracka]

Wait a second, Gleam. Isn't that exactly what I used to do every time I shielded your GUAs?

 

[Gleam]

Wait a second, Gleam. Isn't that exactly what I used to do every time I shielded your GUAs?

TBH if you did, I never noticed it until I fought Dolphs. Still if you did, its good that you know and the point is people who don't do it, need to start doing it.

 

[TP]

I just took your idea and expanded it.

So far I have only tested 5 characters. Of them, you can "infinite" three, ROB, Yoshi, and Sonic. The other two were Mario and Wolf. Just stand there and use more chokes. For the three I succeeded with, you can shield after the GUA starts, and you will always (seemingly) powershield, and the GUA will last long enough to choke again. If they don't GUA, just choke however they go. Again, you can decide after they have started. (For Sonic, you have to step into him a bit). This makes an infinite based entirely upon your reflexes and how quickly they can reach an edge to grab. At that point, they will be at a high enough percent that you can use an Ftilt followup (if it works on that char) and kill them.

Is this good enough to test further and make my own thread about?

 

[Gleam]

I just took your idea and expanded it.

So far I have only tested 5 characters. Of them, you can "infinite" three, ROB, Yoshi, and Sonic. The other two were Mario and Wolf. Just stand there and use more chokes. For the three I succeeded with, you can shield after the GUA starts, and you will always (seemingly) powershield, and the GUA will last long enough to choke again. If they don't GUA, just choke however they go. Again, you can decide after they have started. (For Sonic, you have to step into him a bit). This makes an infinite based entirely upon your reflexes and how quickly they can reach an edge to grab. At that point, they will be at a high enough percent that you can use an Ftilt followup (if it works on that char) and kill them.

Is this good enough to test further and make my own thread about?

Yes defintely start working on this. I started doing some testing on the ROB and you are right, we can Flame choke him. We can flame choke his Get up attack, roll away, roll behind and even regualr get up with a flame choke. And I can see the same thing happen to Bowser though check that out first.

Check all the characters because we may be looking at...

>_>

The D3 Chaingrab of Ganondorf.

 

[TP]

Yes defintely start working on this. I started doing some testing on the ROB and you are right, we can Flame choke him. We can flame choke his Get up attack, roll away, roll behind and even regualr get up with a flame choke. And I can see the same thing happen to Bowser though check that out first.

Check all the characters because we may be looking at...

>_>

The D3 Chaingrab of Ganondorf.

We should ALL do research on it together. Yes, that means you too, person reading this post. I would do it all by myself but I don't want to publish something as fact when it is not and I don't have much time to work with. However, I do want credit for the concept of a chainchoke, which I just named.

It won't work on a lot of characters, I think. Many GUA's come out too fast to block on reaction and not guessing. Also, some characters, such as Wolf, can roll away too far/fast to be able to follow.

P.S. It could also be called the Murder Chain. Your call.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ganon at 1/4 game speed is too good ^^

 

[Gleam]

Well imo, the best characters that this may work on, are the ones that...

1. Have short enough rolls like you said in which we can Gerudo.

2. Have get up attacks that are meant to be multiple hits. Take Yoshi for example, do a frontwards tail whip, then a back one. Allowing us to shield the frontal whip while attack Yoshi while he's doing a back tail wip.

Perhaps, instead of trying to chaingrab using the Chokechain (I like that name) We should try to use Gerudos to seriously pressure the opponents. I think we need to look at each character individually and see their attributes. What do they do when they roll forward, or backwards, or get up, or get up attack.

We pressure tem with Dtilts, if they decide to stay on the ground after a Gerudo and use up their invincibility frames. Force them into situations where no matter what they do, they will get hit. Like putting them up near a ledge so that their situation bleakens.

Basically I say, and people may be doing this already...need to use Gerudos to seriously punish and pressure opponents. Chainchoking may not be very easy, but I think pressuring and punishing will be far easier with more practice.

 

[hyperstation]

Well imo, the best characters that this may work on, are the ones that...

1. Have short enough rolls like you said in which we can Gerudo.

2. Have get up attacks that are meant to be multiple hits. Take Yoshi for example, do a frontwards tail whip, then a back one. Allowing us to shield the frontal whip while attack Yoshi while he's doing a back tail wip.

Perhaps, instead of trying to chaingrab using the Chokechain (I like that name) We should try to use Gerudos to seriously pressure the opponents. I think we need to look at each character individually and see their attributes. What do they do when they roll forward, or backwards, or get up, or get up attack.

We pressure tem with Dtilts, if they decide to stay on the ground after a Gerudo and use up their invincibility frames. Force them into situations where no matter what they do, they will get hit. Like putting them up near a ledge so that their situation bleakens.

Basically I say, and people may be doing this already...need to use Gerudos to seriously punish and pressure opponents. Chainchoking may not be very easy, but I think pressuring and punishing will be far easier with more practice.

Here here, Gleam.

I've recently been analyzing my bad habits as a Ganon, and one of them is instinctively punishing with something like iDA, DTilt, or DAir instead of using Gerudo. Gerudo not only allows for chaining massive damage, it also is a spirit breaker. It really throws off the momentum of the game and frustrates your opponent. No one is more annoyed than when Ganon locks them up for 3, 4, 5 gerudos in a row, amirite?

 

[Teronist09]

It won't work on a lot of characters, I think. Many GUA's come out too fast to block on reaction and not guessing. Also, some characters, such as Wolf, can roll away too far/fast to be able to follow.

You can dash forward out of choke and then choke again. I've tested it before with wolf and snake and you can grab them out of roll before they have a chance to attack (or at least before I could tilt/jab at myself with the second controller). I tried it with my brother evading and was able to chokechain up to about 80% before I did something wrong/predicted wrong. The problem would just be measuring properly to get the right distance from the dash and not choking too soon/late.
Still, if you pull off a few long chokechains and then Dair them, that's a ko :/

IS there anyone who can get out of range rolling behind ganon, or does he grab everyone when they roll behind him?

 

[TP]

Chainchoking may not be very easy, but I think pressuring and punishing will be far easier with more practice.

Yes, it is hard. Doing it on Wifi is surely impossible. However, I think this could change those matchups. NOTHING is as good a followup as another choke, which puts them back to the same situation, but at a higher percent.

Picture this: you are perfect at Chainchoking. You choke a ROB in the center of Final while he is at 50%. He has to always roll away; if he chooses any other option he will stay there racking up damage. It takes 5 chokes to reach the edge, at which point he is at 90%. You then use your guaranteed Ftilt on the last choke before the edge for the kill. That is a guaranteed kill because you choked him from the center at 50%. That is an advantageous matchup against a high tier character.

Does anyone else feel that Chainchoking is an huge discovery, or am I the only one?

 

[Gleam]

Yes, it is hard. Doing it on Wifi is surely impossible. However, I think this could change those matchups. NOTHING is as good a followup as another choke, which puts them back to the same situation, but at a higher percent.

Picture this: you are perfect at Chainchoking. You choke a ROB in the center of Final while he is at 50%. He has to always roll away; if he chooses any other option he will stay there racking up damage. It takes 5 chokes to reach the edge, at which point he is at 90%. You then use your guaranteed Ftilt on the last choke before the edge for the kill. That is a guaranteed kill because you choked him from the center at 50%. That is an advantageous matchup against a high tier character.

Does anyone else feel that Chainchoking is an huge discovery, or am I the only one?

I think its the idea of using Chainchoking to (as I've said) seriously pressure them. We know that there are 3 options for an opponent after getting Gerudoed. Yes, technically four, but be honest...how many people do you know actually do a regular get up? Not saying it isn't done or possible, but it certainly the least used of the get ups after a Gerudo.

So we know that no matter what a character does, we can hit them with something. No matter what get up or roll they do, we can hit them with something. The trouble is predicting this.

I have a slight solution, or something to at least help us. Instead of trying to learn 3-4 different get ups for a character and trying to predict it...start with just two. Try to get used to just predicting to get up moves instead 3 or 4. IMO I would do get up attacks and one of the rolls.

I think Chainchoking (love that name) is a pretty awesome attribute that we all must exploit and find more about.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I think its the idea of using Chainchoking to (as I've said) seriously pressure them. We know that there are 3 options for an opponent after getting Gerudoed. Yes, technically four, but be honest...how many people do you know actually do a regular get up? Not saying it isn't done or possible, but it certainly the least used of the get ups after a Gerudo.

So we know that no matter what a character does, we can hit them with something. No matter what get up or roll they do, we can hit them with something. The trouble is predicting this.

I have a slight solution, or something to at least help us. Instead of trying to learn 3-4 different get ups for a character and trying to predict it...start with just two. Try to get used to just predicting to get up moves instead 3 or 4. IMO I would do get up attacks and one of the rolls.

I think Chainchoking (love that name) is a pretty awesome attribute that we all must exploit and find more about.

6 options to be more precise. Yes, I'm counting gerudo as another option. It could be a follow up in it's own way, as you guys were talking about. Twlight gave the example; geruding R.O.B as a follow up could (avoid) and punish his GUO and punish his forward roll. That could be said as two follow ups in one move.

This is truly going to turn out beneficial.

 

[TP]

6 options to be more precise. Yes, I'm counting gerudo as another option. It could be a follow up in it's own way, as you guys were talking about. Twlight gave the example; geruding R.O.B as a follow up could (avoid) and punish his GUO and punish his forward roll. That's two options in one. This is truly going to turn out beneficial.

It also punishes his backward roll and his regular getup. Good game, R.O.B.

BTW, this works on Ganon, too, but you need godly reflexes. He is naturally dark, and the purple flames hide him in a way, making it very hard to see what he is about to do.

This does not work on Marth.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

It also punishes his backward roll and his regular getup. Good game, R.O.B.

BTW, this works on Ganon, too, but you need godly reflexes. He is naturally dark, and the purple flames hide him in a way, making it very hard to see what he is about to do.

This does not work on Marth.

Wait, what? We have a infinite on R.O.B?

 

[TP]

Wait, what? We have a infinite on R.O.B?

We can choke him as many times as we want until he reaches the edge. Then we should Ftilt for the kill after we racked up that damage. The choke works on all his options (and several other chars) if you have good enough reflexes. You have to decide to shield OR choke left OR choke right in a very small amount of time. You need to be very familiar with his animations. You can't wait to see if he moves or not.

The point is, this is ****ing hard, but yes, it is inescapable until he reaches the edge and eats an Ftilt and dies.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

We can choke him as many times as we want until he reaches the edge. Then we should Ftilt for the kill after we racked up that damage. The choke works on all his options (and several other chars) if you have good enough reflexes. You have to decide to shield OR choke left OR choke right in a very small amount of time. You need to be very familiar with his animations. You can't wait to see if he moves or not.

The point is, this is ****ing hard, but yes, it is inescapable until he reaches the edge and eats an Ftilt and dies.

No, that doesn't seem hard at all. Give me a second to change this matchup's ratio.

 

[TP]

No, that doesn't seem hard at all. Give me a second to change this matchup's ratio.

It's hard. I was practicing against a level 9 and rarely succeeded. I had a 100% success rate on 1/2 speed, proving it is possible. Of course, my reflexes suck.

Should I find out all the chars this works on and make a new thread?

 

[Dolphination]

I have found a good tactic for predicting rolls is forcing people into certain moves..Depending on my fight, I will switch it up but for insatnce;

Many times I guerdo then fox trot back and either dtilt/ftilf/etc. the guy if he GUA or thunderstorm if he rolls at me...and I will do this repeatedly even if i notice it isnt hitting him because when he gets to a higher percent he is going to roll away from that because he sees me do it every single time. So eventually when he rolls away thinking I wont be there Im gonna follow it up with a stutter step smash or a wiz kick and finish the deal. Yes you may be lacking damage with this method sometimes but it always puts you in control of the opponent.

And best of all if he keeps rolling back into me or GUA then i keep getting free hits. Yes it's good to mix the followups up but seemingly cutting down your opponents options helps a lot.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay, so I've been chainchoking my opponents and let me tell you, it's a ****en killer. [/******]

This just gives Ganon all the more reason to stay and lure his opponents on the ground.

Also, which characters does this work on?

 

[TP]

I'm going to find out what characters can be chainchoked... later. I literally have no time to test for 24 hours. I expect it will work on approximately 15 to 20 characters. Keep your fingers crossed.

 

[hyperstation]

I've been back seating this thread, sort of watching it unfold. It seems like you guys are onto something really good here. I haven't played around with this too much, so I'm not totally sure how it all works, but once you guys start organizing your intel and someone puts a vid together, things are gonna get ugly.

I've got some weird ground techniques I'm working on. Sliding all over the place and increasing the attack range of things like FTilt and DTilt. I'm going to work on a couple vids for my DSL thread, so once we have that discussion happening in addition to this chainchoking thread, we're gonna have some serious reanalyzing of our ground game. '09 is looking REALLY good for our boy Ganon right now.

 

[TP]

I've been back seating this thread, sort of watching it unfold. It seems like you guys are onto something really good here. I haven't played around with this too much, so I'm not totally sure how it all works, but once you guys start organizing your intel and someone puts a vid together, things are gonna get ugly.

I've got some weird ground techniques I'm working on. Sliding all over the place and increasing the attack range of things like FTilt and DTilt. I'm going to work on a couple vids for my DSL thread, so once we have that discussion happening in addition to this chainchoking thread, we're gonna have some serious reanalyzing of our ground game. '09 is looking REALLY good for our boy Ganon right now.

Yes, 2009 is going to be great.

Now that I see people really care about this:

I will make a very detailed thread on chainchoking, including who it works on and how to do it on them, at about 6 PM Central time tomorrow. That is a promise.

I don't have the ability to make vids, so someone else will have to do it. Wait until reading my thread before doing it.

 

[Gleam]

It's hard. I was practicing against a level 9 and rarely succeeded. I had a 100% success rate on 1/2 speed, proving it is possible. Of course, my reflexes suck.

Should I find out all the chars this works on and make a new thread?

I was trying to practice this against a CPU also, to see if I could get better at prediction and it was hard. Seriously I'd get paranoid trying to see where and when the CPU would roll. However most people after get gerudoed will not just stand there at the bottom, they will do something.

If someone decides to move after getting gerudoed I'd say just use a follow up. Unless your really really good at predicting. However most of the times I think someoen willl try to do something so they don't get a Jab, or Ftilt on them.

I've been back seating this thread, sort of watching it unfold. It seems like you guys are onto something really good here. I haven't played around with this too much, so I'm not totally sure how it all works, but once you guys start organizing your intel and someone puts a vid together, things are gonna get ugly.

I've got some weird ground techniques I'm working on. Sliding all over the place and increasing the attack range of things like FTilt and DTilt. I'm going to work on a couple vids for my DSL thread, so once we have that discussion happening in addition to this chainchoking thread, we're gonna have some serious reanalyzing of our ground game. '09 is looking REALLY good for our boy Ganon right now.

Ganon's ground game...how great its becoming. Just saying.

Yes, 2009 is going to be great.

Now that I see people really care about this:

I will make a very detailed thread on chainchoking, including who it works on and how to do it on them, at about 6 PM Central time tomorrow. That is a promise.

I don't have the ability to make vids, so someone else will have to do it. Wait until reading my thread before doing it.

I'm hoping to see this thread soon. Get more in depth with it.

You're the man TP...

 

[TP]

Here's an example of what my thread will look like.

Bowser
Difficulty: Easy
Notes: His Away Roll looks like he will roll toward you, since he curls into a ball. Don't be fooled. Fortunately, his Inward Roll looks different, with his feet kicking up, so you should be over this deceptive movement after some practice.

 

[Z1GMA]

Good job TP,, keep it up!
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
Normaly, characters have one GUA while lying on their stomach, and another one while lying on their back. Gerudo gives them only one GUA option.

I did some OoS testing on a lv9 Snake after Gerudo, at 1/4 game speed; The color of the attacks tells if they are garanteed or not:

White= 100% garanteed
Red= Fail
Green= 100% garanteed and it's awesome!
_______________________________
Grab/Dashgrab
Jab
Ftilt
Dtilt
DA
Murder choke - MC again, just like what TP is talking about.
Wizkick
SH Nair
SH Uair
SH Bair
TS - Nice
Dsmash
Usmash
Fair O_o
SH Reverse Uair - Tipman combos at mid %'s
WP
Utilt
.
.
.
Fsmash O_O' ...Yes, Fsmash is garanteed. I mean, 34% damage from a Gerudo is pretty dope..

 

[TP]

The plan is to choke these character until they are near the ledge, then use one of various horizontal kill moves at our disposal. We will see how this goes. Once I have launched my thread, we can see what works best for each character. Good testing, Z1GMA.

It is important that NOTHING is taken as definite until 2 people have confirmed it. Don't believe a word I say until someone else agrees with me. Nobody's perfect.

Oh, and Gleam: sorry for stealing your thread, bud. I sorta stole the spotlight here. You'll be mentioned in my thread.

 

[Gleam]

The plan is to choke these character until they are near the ledge, then use one of various horizontal kill moves at our disposal. We will see how this goes. Once I have launched my thread, we can see what works best for each character. Good testing, Z1GMA.

It is important that NOTHING is taken as definite until 2 people have confirmed it. Don't believe a word I say until someone else agrees with me. Nobody's perfect.

Oh, and Gleam: sorry for stealing your thread, bud. I sorta stole the spotlight here. You'll be mentioned in my thread.

You stealing the spotlight has allowed us to increase Ganon's metagame to the point where were actually starting to see Advantageous Matchups. Don't kick yourself or anythin...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Choke chaining really opens up Ganon's potential, even if it's only against a few characters. I've been practicing choke chaining against a CPU R.O.B at 1/4 game speed, then faster when I got better.

A method that could help you at choke chaining; Have your hands over L/R (If that's what you use to shield), and forward B. Watch the opponents movement closely then when you're about to react, be ready to B reverse, this way you'll have a easier time reflexing.

Every character makes a different sound and type of movement of whatever they do after gerudo.