Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior #Geno4Smash - Everyone's gotta do their part! Vote Geno

[Kind Dedede]

Greninja is playable in Mario Kart? Little Mac is playable in Mario Kart!?

Gives new meaning to the term whiplash for Greninja

 

[EmceeEspio]

So excited for E3. This is our Shining Moment!

GENO for SM4SH!

 

[EmceeEspio]

So excited for E3. This is our Shining Moment!

GENO for SM4SH!

 

[Xigger]

So excited for E3. This is our Shining Moment!

GENO for SM4SH in any shape or form!

Fixed.

 

[CF711]

Less than 24 hours until we find out!

 

[EmceeEspio]

Fixed.

What you did there.

I see it.

And I want.

 

[domriver]

Less than 24 hours until we find out!

The suspense is killing me. xD

 

[kiteinthesky]

Wait, are we getting the full roster tomorrow? I thought we wouldn't find out until Wednesday.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Wait, are we getting the full roster tomorrow? I thought we wouldn't find out until Wednesday.

People are just kinda making broad assumptions. We won't know the full roster 'til, at minimum, a week or so before the 3DS launch.

 

[Kind Dedede]

People are just kinda making broad assumptions. We won't know the full roster 'til, at minimum, a week or so before the 3DS launch.

Could try to hide some until somebody spills the beans via Internet after opening the game.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Could try to hide some until somebody spills the beans via Internet after opening the game.

Well, Brawl's roster and content was all revealed by people that managed to acquire the Japanese version a day or so early. The actual leak was about a week before that. So I'm just making assumptions there, as well.

Guaranteed someone's going to get the game days to weeks early and spit out the roster.

 

[Kind Dedede]

Well, Brawl's roster and content was all revealed by people that managed to acquire the Japanese version a day or so early. The actual leak was about a week before that. So I'm just making assumptions there, as well.

Guaranteed someone's going to get the game days to weeks early and spit out the roster.

Lucky ********, I always have to wait. Ugh!

 

[Xigger]

I hate to be grasping straws, but is it a coincidence that one of Mario's special customizations is named "Fire Orb"? I know how Sakurai likes to make references, and he's already referenced the game a few times with Peach's moves.

 

[Kind Dedede]

Well as expected Pacman showed up. That would chalk us up to 4 3rd parties if Geno were to be announced, which is really taking things too high. I'm hoping for DLC but do believe our odds are better left waiting for Smash 5

 

[CF711]

Well as expected Pacman showed up. That would chalk us up to 4 3rd parties if Geno were to be announced, which is really taking things too high. I'm hoping for DLC but do believe our odds are better left waiting for Smash 5

Either that or hope that he is a hidden character. I mean people would know who he is, but he wouldn't generate as much hype as Pac-Man, Sonic, or Mega-Man.

 

[Kind Dedede]

Either that or hope that he is a hidden character. I mean people would know who he is, but he wouldn't generate as much hype as Pac-Man, Sonic, or Mega-Man.

He got shafted with his reveal, no cameras or footage allowed really sucks. As far as being Hype, I really wouldn't have put him that high really. If he hadn't been part of the Sal leak he may have given a little more but lets be honest though in saying we all expected him. Geno still would have been hype seeing as how the whole Brawl crowd would have easily gone up in a frenzy with such an announcement. Can't honestly say Mii fighters or even Palutena did that but once again with the Sal leak they were slightly hindered but still expected without if though.

 

[CF711]

He got shafted with his reveal, no cameras or footage allowed really sucks. As far as being Hype, I really wouldn't have put him that high really. If he hadn't been part of the Sal leak he may have given a little more but lets be honest though in saying we all expected him. Geno still would have been hype seeing as how the whole Brawl crowd would have easily gone up in a frenzy with such an announcement. Can't honestly say Mii fighters or even Palutena did that but once again with the Sal leak they were slightly hindered but still expected without if though.

Footage of his reveal actually came out the next day. They did have some cameras on for the Q&A event they just didn't broadcast it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDsmjbifWUk&feature=youtu.be

 

[VictoryIsMudkipz]

It's looking real bad for Geno around this time, really hoping he'd make it this time around, but it's been pretty quiet..

 

[Kind Dedede]

Footage of his reveal actually came out the next day. They did have some cameras on for the Q&A event they just didn't broadcast it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDsmjbifWUk&feature=youtu.be

When Pacman was announced, he was only through text to the masses of the real smash fans is where I was getting at. That video was horribly trimmed too.

It's looking real bad for Geno around this time, really hoping he'd make it this time around, but it's been pretty quiet..

After the Brawl letdown, don't think we have a chance unless we can get it back full force come Smash 5.

 

[VictoryIsMudkipz]

When Pacman was announced, he was only through text to the masses of the real smash fans is where I was getting at. That video was horribly trimmed too.



After the Brawl letdown, don't think we have a chance unless we can get it back full force come Smash 5.

I was really hoping that Square would come around this time, after noticing how much of an impact Super Smash Bros has had on the gaming industry post Brawl

 

[Kind Dedede]

I was really hoping that Square would come around this time, after noticing how much of an impact Super Smash Bros has had on the gaming industry post Brawl

Although Square could be nasty, I'm under the impression Sakurai never bothered contacting them both times now. Capcom made it clear he never did during Brawl and seeing how they included 3 this time, would be hard pressed to believe they would try for 4. Pacman isn't quite the slot filler as Snake but let's face it, he did indeed do the same thing although straight off the get go.

 

[VictoryIsMudkipz]

Although Square could be nasty, I'm under the impression Sakurai never bothered contacting them both times now. Capcom made it clear he never did during Brawl and seeing how they included 3 this time, would be hard pressed to believe they would try for 4. Pacman isn't quite the slot filler as Snake but let's face it, he did indeed do the same thing although straight off the get go.

I thought Sakurai did contact Square, because one of the leading designers at Square & friend of Sakurai helped do the cinematics for the SSE

 

[Kind Dedede]

I thought Sakurai did contact Square, because one of the leading designers at Square & friend of Sakurai helped do the cinematics for the SSE

If he didn't bother getting a good negotiation for Sonic until Brawl's release date, kind of under the impression Geno would also suffer such a fate of not being considered but for him it was too late.

 

[kiteinthesky]

Although Square could be nasty, I'm under the impression Sakurai never bothered contacting them both times now. Capcom made it clear he never did during Brawl and seeing how they included 3 this time, would be hard pressed to believe they would try for 4. Pacman isn't quite the slot filler as Snake but let's face it, he did indeed do the same thing although straight off the get go.

So how did Megaman get in then? Did Capcom go to Nintendo?

 

[ErenJager]

What if Mewtwo, Ridley, King K. Rool, and Geno are secret characters that only Sakurai has worked on.
So they can't be easily leaked.

 

[Kind Dedede]

So how did Megaman get in then? Did Capcom go to Nintendo?

"Although Square could be nasty, I'm under the impression Sakurai never bothered contacting them both times now."
-- Sakurai never contacted Square Enix for Brawl or Sm4sh by the the looks of it

"Capcom made it clear he never did during Brawl"
-- Sakurai never did try to go after Mega Man for Brawl. After the public demand for Sonic, MM was naturally the next big push as far as Third Parties goes so after ~5 years I'm sure he understood who the public wanted if it wasn't already too apparent before. Plus, it wouldn't be too hard to see Capcom step forward and suggest Mega Man, (for a price), seeing as how that's kind of the same measures Snake got in. (Not publicly or too freely but still could have been open to the idea with Sakurai about it. After all, they were answering the questions on why he wasn't in Brawl.)

I still believe we really shouldn't have third parties but then again if they're to this level of importance, I'll still accept them. People like Snake should never be allowed, (no offense to his fans), since he doesn't represent anything Nintendo when compared to Sonic or Mega Man.

 

[Staarih]

Imagine a Geno amiibo figure *drools*

I guess there's always a chance for DLC with Geno if he doesn't get in originally, hopefully that wouldn't be too much of a stretch for him.

 

[Xigger]

"Although Square could be nasty, I'm under the impression Sakurai never bothered contacting them both times now."
-- Sakurai never contacted Square Enix for Brawl or Sm4sh by the the looks of it

I've got to point out that we may have an indication of company contact. There are two direct Super Mario RPG references in Brawl, one is the name of the game, the other is a music file labeled "Beware the Forest's Mushrooms" I think, the song from said game, which is rather iconic and Geno-related at that.

I don't know about the copyright issues from the game, but that definitely confirms that Sakurai at least did his homework on what copyrights belong to Nintendo or Square Enix.

(Square Enix employees working on Smash Bros. is another topic)

 

[ChunkyBeef]

I've got to point out that we may have an indication of company contact. There are two direct Super Mario RPG references in Brawl, one is the name of the game, the other is a music file labeled "Beware the Forest's Mushrooms" I think, the song from said game, which is rather iconic and Geno-related at that.

I don't know about the copyright issues from the game, but that definitely confirms that Sakurai at least did his homework on what copyrights belong to Nintendo or Square Enix.

(Square Enix employees working on Smash Bros. is another topic)

Well, that's an issue, unfortunately. They can put the name of the game into the timeline because no-one's going to care. It's just text on a timeline. 'Beware the Forest's Mushrooms', I believe, was removed due to copyright concerns. So, honestly, that says that they DIDN'T contact Squenix about it, just prepared to have some assets in there and took 'em out when they realized that **** wouldn't fly.

 

[Mariuigi]

What if Mewtwo, Ridley, King K. Rool, and Geno are secret characters that only Sakurai has worked on.
So they can't be easily leaked.

I feel like all the leaked characters are for characters that were planned to be revealed pre-launch anyway, so assuming Sakurai did not decide to show off all the newcomers pre-launch, Geno still has a chance :')

 

[MasterMushroom]

Sakurai never tells people what he does until the title is launched and people ask him. The only thing that I knew/hunched for a long time that might've prevented Geno is royalty fees.

Each director is given an amount/limit of funding they can use for the entire games development. That means putting food on the table for all the developers, musicians, etc. Royalty fees come out of that budget. The only legitimate reason we couldn't have seen Geno was because Square Enix has been asking way too much money in return. Yes, more than the likes of Megaman; imagine that right now for a second.

Square Enix doesn't shy away from cross overs as long as there is money. Sakurai knows a lot of people want him; I mean this is where the entire trend of "Geno for smash" came from. Originally japan crossing all over the world. It's died down here a bit sure; but people there still keep the dream alive. Sakurai knows the demand is there, so asking why he doesn't put in Geno shouldn't be a question

So assuming it was an issue of money, which is most likely the case; they've probably asked for too much money for the title cross over OR wanted to lease the character every year or so and get annual royalty fees that way. I wouldn't put it pass them for the latter; they have a very aggressive philosophy of brand protection.

I can't help but feel sorry for the likes of Vanpool and Alphadream; both parties affiliated with Nintendo. Before they became what they are, they worked during the hay day of Square soft. One of the leading producers at Alphadream created Geno back when he worked for Square. Why do you think Geno had such a tiny appearance in the game? We were lucky to get just that.

Imagine how much it hurts losing your rights to your own creative work. This is no different than the issue of Inafune and megaman with capcom; or Kamiya and VJ with Capcom.

Not saying he's isn't or is likely. Just wish that Sakurai jumps over that hurdle

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Not saying he's isn't or is likely. Just wish that Sakurai jumps over that hurdle

Honestly, I don't think Squenix demanding too much money is a hurdle. I think the thing keeping Geno out of Smash is that Squenix wants a greater presence in Smash than just Geno, and I don't think Sakurai, Bamco, Nintendo, or a combination thereof, is willing to put development time into Squenix assets beyond what's essential to properly represent Geno (a stage, SMRPG song elements, trophies, so on and so forth, etc. etc.). It's more lucrative long term for Squenix to ask for a greater presence in Smash, because while Geno might be playable, as I've said before, AT's, stages and music goes a long way.

So while it would be cool for us to see Cloud and Lightning as an AT, or hear Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy music on any number of stages, the point is that Squenix is probably asking for in-game advertising of Squenix assets and IP's that don't directly benefit Smash or Nintendo as a whole, and that's a no go. Heck, they might even be demanding a second third party Squenix representative in addition to Geno. Who knows?

Point is, I don't think money is a problem here. I think Squenix is just demanding the devotion of too much development time, and that's not something Nintendo, Sakurai or Bamco are willing to do for a character that's not ridiculously iconic. Worse still is that all the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest characters that have appeared on Nintendo consoles and handhelds aren't particularly iconic, not in the same kind of wide recognition type as, say, Cloud, Slime, or even Sora. Worse still is that the only genuinely unique things Geno has going for him is his history with Nintendo and being PART of the precursor to Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi games.

It might be best to not hold our breaths here.

 

[Xigger]

They can put the name of the game into the timeline because no-one's going to care. It's just text on a timeline.

'Beware the Forest's Mushrooms', I believe, was removed due to copyright concerns.

So, honestly, that says that they DIDN'T contact Squenix about it, just prepared to have some assets in there and took 'em out when they realized that **** wouldn't fly.

1. I can understand that opinion, it is just a name and not many people care about the text on the timeline, but don't try saying that a professional business that takes pride in its work would do something because no one's going to care. That's not how companies work.
2. We only knew that the song's title was a dropped song still referenced in the game files, we shouldn't pretend to know why the song was or wasn't used.
3. Your conclusion infers that they got the original song from the source files from the game from another company, imported it, and made it through the game long enough to get a finalized music ID, in the same music ID list the final game uses, and THEN they removed it. Again, (competent) businesses are not this stupid to put off legalities until the end, and even then, they wouldn't get the source files until they asked the company owners for the files themselves, which would force the legalities to be taken care of first.

Your theory about Square Enix may hold ground, but it honestly sounds like a pessimistic viewpoint, assuming the worst and labeling Square Enix greedy enough to turn down a business deal all-or-nothing for a playable character in Smash. Pessimism aside, I don't know if Square Enix cares about Smash Bros.. Square Enix characters cameo'd in Mario Hoops, so their relationship with Nintendo isn't as bad as you describe it could be.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Snip

I never really described Squenix's relationship with Nintendo to be bad. I'm sure it was pretty sour when they decided to put Final Fantasy games on the Playstation for a while, but as of recent years their relationship has been pretty good. Do I have a pessimistic outlook on Squenix being in Smash? Yeah, definitely, 'cause I have no reason to look at it otherwise. Squenix is in pretty bad shape, just kinda treading water, and they've been known for making some really poor decisions in the past decade that have cost them a ton of money. It doesn't strike me as particularly odd that they might ask for too much money in exchange for Geno (or Mallow, really), and it strikes me less odd that they might ask for a lion's share of development time to get assets into Smash in exchange for Geno. This isn't like a cameo in a mini-game in a Mario & Luigi RPG.

As for my opinion earlier, about Mario RPG showing up on the Brawl in-game timeline, that's just my guess. It's text on a timeline, and even if Squenix might possibly have a problem with it, they're still advertising the game (free advertisement, mind you) and I'm sure Squenix gets a sweet cut of Virtual Console sales of Mario RPG. So, no, I honestly don't think they give even a quarter of a crap the information was on the timeline, if they ever did. My bet is that someone brought it up to the lawyers, who laughed and said 'It's free advertisement of our intellectual property and it's not hurting anyone. Let's pursue more lucrative lawsuits.'.

Similarly, the song? The data ACTUALLY reads "snd_bgm_A12_MORINOKINOKO" or "Mushroom Forest". Not exactly incriminating evidence, to say the least, though it does match 'Beware the Forest's Mushrooms!'. I've heard tell that it's probably a Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time track which was the theme for Toadsworth Forest that just got cut out at the last moment, but there's a ton of music that was cut out from the game due to licensing reasons or time constraints. It wouldn't surprise me if they had originally intended to put Beware the Forest's Mushrooms into the game but took it out 'cause they couldn't get copyright/licensing to have it into the game. Unfortunately, chances are, we'll never really know.

Again, (competent) businesses are not this stupid to put off legalities until the end, and even then, they wouldn't get the source files until they asked the company owners for the files themselves, which would force the legalities to be taken care of first.

You'd be surprised really, but this just says that the music was the aforementioned theme of Toadsworth Forest and was never 'Beware the Forest's Mushrooms!' to begin with. Case closed.

Even so, I wouldn't put it past Squenix to be greedy in this instance. I feel like I've got every reason to be pessimistic about it. Squenix is a notoriously difficult company to work with, they've been prone to making awful decisions lately and just coasting on their legacy, and my guess is that it's going to wind up like another Capcom. People are going to wind up leaving in droves, especially if Kingdom Hearts 3 winds up being a pile of crap.

Except the only difference between Squenix and Capcom is that Squenix's poster boy is being pimped out every chance they get. You see that recent reveal for Final Fantasy 7: G-Bike? Hahahahahaha. Instead of working on something genuinely lucrative - like a FF7 remake - they work on fleshing out a mini-game in FF7. Feels like the final nail in that coffin to me.

So, yeah, you see where I'm coming from? I have every reason to assume the worst and label Squenix. They brought it upon themselves.

 

[kiteinthesky]

Even so, I wouldn't put it past Squenix to be greedy in this instance. I feel like I've got every reason to be pessimistic about it. Squenix is a notoriously difficult company to work with, they've been prone to making awful decisions lately and just coasting on their legacy, and my guess is that it's going to wind up like another Capcom. People are going to wind up leaving in droves, especially if Kingdom Hearts 3 winds up being a pile of crap.

I say we all just raise the money and buy out Square Enix's stocks when they drop like a rock again.

 

[Arcadenik]

What if Mewtwo, Ridley, King K. Rool, and Geno are secret characters that only Sakurai has worked on.
So they can't be easily leaked.

I can see why Sakurai has pain all over his body... he was doing models, animations, music, programming all by himself.

 

[Xigger]

@ ChunkyBeef , I see where you're coming from. I don't have a personal vendetta with Square Enix like you do, but personally, I doubt it could be worse than Capcom. Mega Man's got so much hate over the years, even Mega Man's creator. And after bad box-art Mega Man, I didn't think Nintendo could convince Capcom to let them bring Mega Man in a good light. But they did. After that, I don't think there's much Sakurai-Nintendo couldn't do.


The REAL big dilemna that makes me worry even more than the dwindling popularity or copyright discussions, is the "what can this character add to the game?". Every newcomer so far has been a popular fighting archetype. I could see Geno being a projectile-fighter like Mega Man or a Timed Hit fighter, but I'm not entirely sure what Geno in the new Smash would look like. It doesn't seem like what I would have envisioned for Geno in Brawl.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

@ ChunkyBeef , I see where you're coming from. I don't have a personal vendetta with Square Enix like you do, but personally, I doubt it could be worse than Capcom. Mega Man's got so much hate over the years, even Mega Man's creator. And after bad box-art Mega Man, I didn't think Nintendo could convince Capcom to let them bring Mega Man in a good light. But they did. After that, I don't think there's much Sakurai-Nintendo couldn't do.

The REAL big dilemna that makes me worry even more than the dwindling popularity or copyright discussions, is the "what can this character add to the game?". Every newcomer so far has been a popular fighting archetype. I could see Geno being a projectile-fighter like Mega Man or a Timed Hit fighter, but I'm not entirely sure what Geno in the new Smash would look like. It doesn't seem like what I would have envisioned for Geno in Brawl.

Funny thing is? I don't have a personal vendetta against Square-Enix. I love Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. I enjoyed what they did with Tomb Raider. Naturally, I'm here 'cause I loved Mario RPG. I love what Squenix DID. I just have a problem with what Squenix DOES NOW, and it does not make me optimistic, sorry to say.

As for how Geno would play, I'd imagine he'd be a primarily ranged attacker with weak normals and light weight.

As for how Geno would look, I'd say that'd be a bit of a challenge for them to do. Seems like a character that would go through lots of revisions.

 

[Xigger]

Kind of sounds like Mega Man... and no newcomer has been similar thus far. I'm just hoping for representation this time.

 

[kiteinthesky]

Kind of sounds like Mega Man... and no newcomer has been similar thus far. I'm just hoping for representation this time.

Not necessarily. Don't forget he also uses magic which could be put in alongside ranged attacks. I'd imagine him more as a mix of Lucas/Ness and someone like Mario who throws down. Don't forget that Geno fought Bowyer hand to hand in his first appearance.