Gen V Project: "Best Movesets" Discussion *SPOILERS*

[ss118]

Alright, so basically I'm thinking we should start a project where we try to make a base of all of the best sets for pokemon. I don't know exactly how we are going to do this, but I think we need to move a little.

So what't the point of this? Easy: we pick a pokemon, discuss it for like a day - three(depending on the pokemon), come up with some(if not more) of the most effective sets we can think of and just have a huge base of them. I know it doesn't scream "efficiency," but honestly I want to do something.

Obvious a pokemon's "best" set is completely opinionated and usually won't be unanimously agreed on. If that seems to be the case we'll put more sets, but we are trying to create sets that aren't outdone by other pokemon. Don't post a SubRoost set for Charizard because "it's faster" or something: we know that Moltres is generally better, especially with Pressure and its new ability. Same for something like gen IV Blaziken vs Infernape.

So where do we start? I think we should go ahead and just go right to the very beginning with Venusaur, OR we start with the newest gen V pokemon and work the way through that list before moving to previous generations.

I know this probably isn't a necessary thread, but I think a lot of competitive discussion will spark through this. It also allows us to all access the same pokemon rather than the current thread that's like "ZOMG B/W IS COOL LOOK WHAT I MADE!!!"

 

[Fuelbi]

I think we should just start with the gen V pokemon

And I already know what set to put under Jaroda

 

[Kofu]

It's important to see what's unique about each Pokémon.

Ability, Type Combination, Stat Distribution, and Movepool are probably good places to start.

It's also important to distinguish that, even if a Pokémon isn't very good in one metagame, it's not necessarily bad in another. If I recall correctly, Parasect did fairly well in Ubers. And some of the new Pokémon, such as Oobemu, do much better in Double/Triple Battles than in Singles.

 

[Circa]

Well if the two options are Venusaur or Victini, I'd vote to start with Venusaur. Everyone's going to be abusing the new Pokemon anyway, so while they're finding all the sets for 5th gen Pokemon we can find the ones for older Pokemon.

And speaking from there, I feel like Venusaur's "best" set would probably be something like a Chlorophyll SubSeed set. Its biggest contenders in the area are going to be Erufuun (Mischievous Heart makes Speed unnecessary) and Jumpluff, which Venusaur diffrentiates from the two of them by having the ability to soak up Toxic Spikes, and also being the only one of the three to be able to take out opposing Grass-types. Plus he's the bulkiest of the three.

A Chlorophyll sweeper set is outclassed by the likes of Tangrowth and Doredia, which is why I didn't bother with it. A Seed Sweeper set might be good though. I could go for that.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I'd rather we alternate in reverse pokedex order, starting with Venusaur then moving to whatever the last one in B/W is, etc.

also all this talk of B/W makes me think of Starcraft: Brood War, which is a game for real men.

Venusaur has the advantage as a bulky seeder, but it still isn't as bulky as Jaroda. It only functions as a differentiated grass-type with sun out, which requires Ninetales. Dual Status would also be a nice thing in the sun as it will outspeed basically everything.

 

[UltiMario]

You do realize even going through old Pokemon on a 1-3 day pace Smogon will already be updated for Gen V and there would already be standards in place by the time we're half-way done, correct?

 

[Moozle]

Yes, but this is fun and gives us something creative to do with 5th gen.

I agree with starting on Venusaur.

 

[Wave⁂]

SubSeed

Alright, who's next.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i just want to talk about this guy http://serebii.net/pokedex-bw/589.shtml sadly think his move pool is to shallow so he wont be that good which sucks since he is one of my favs of the new gen.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

He has Swords Dance / X-Scissor / Iron Head / Faint Attack. Faint Attack especially wards off Shanderaa. Also, lack of Earthquake is disappointing.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i was thinking swords dance/sub/x-scissor or megahorn/ and reversal/ or return

but iron head or faint attack might work as a 2nd attack

and i think shandera will be banned to uber real quick so idk if it matters

 

[Terywj [태리]]

You're complete setup-bait if you only run Iron Head / X-Scissor.

It doesn't really matter what you think will be banned. It all depends on what ends up being banned. Worse comes to worse they'll make Shadow Tag Shanderaa illegal.

 

[Wrath`]

Shadow Tag Shanderra is going to be 5th gen's Garchomp. Ussable at first, will be easily revenge killed, but you will need to pack a counter for it. Then it will go to ubers, blah blah.../..

 

[Wave⁂]

I look forward to gen 5 teams.

Shanderaa
Shanderaa counter 1
Shanderaa counter 2
Shanderaa counter counter 1
Shanderaa counter counter 2
Priority Taunt / Espeon

 

[PKNintendo]

Have you guys been playing gen 5? I played a decent amount of matches.
*Shadowtag Shanderra isn't legal at the moment.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

o man that spc attack plus shadow tag there is no way i dont see it getting banned. imagine if it comes in on a blissy or a fighting type and it has calm mind it can set up for days and then crush everything. i see it getting banned real fast faster then garchomp was in gen4. but u are right its not about what will be banned right now and u are right i realized that having a bug/steel move before was terrible just forgot when i posted that, but yea maybe reversal or faint attack, every once and a while i think poison jab then i remember just how bad poison is as a attack type.

edit: o shanderra is also ready a uber lol makes sense to me

Also i will be rocking that dragon with 147 attack and i will show why its too good

 

[CT Chia]

gen 5 pokes should be done first

there should be versions for dream world and non dream world, since we dunno if we'll be able to get em normally yet

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i agree if we are doing this gen 5 first makes sense since it might help people get a handle on the new poke's.

besides whats the point of a new game if we are not talking about the new pokemon

 

[UltiMario]

Have you guys been playing gen 5? I played a decent amount of matches.
*Shadowtag Shanderra isn't legal at the moment.

You went onto the public server in which dream world abilities were banned (seeing as they're unobtainable as of yet) instead of the private one where they were legal. :3

Also i will be rocking that dragon with 147 attack and i will show why its too good

Too bad he doesn't have a Fire-type move.

No, seriously, the lack of Fire type move is the reason he's never going to rise into Ubers. The best set he can run is either a Dragon Dance or a Swords Dance set with Double Chop/Outrage, Earthquake, and Taunt :/ Not to mention he's so frail Skarm's Brave Bird can actually 3HKO him with ease.

 

[CT Chia]

how r ppl playing gen 5 lemme in on the details! i already built a team i wanna test

 

[ss118]

^agreed. If there's something like on PO I can play it on, please post here so we can all play it.

Zekrom doesn't have a fire move.

 

[UltiMario]

http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?1958-5th-gen-alpha-testing

Watch this thread. It updates whenever there's a new alpha testing stage, and when you have opportunities to play.

 

[Tomo Takino]

You guys really should hold off on talking about Shanderra being banned. Simply because Shadowtag proved too much in previous gens doesn't mean it will in this gen.

Let's take TTar for example.
Similar to Shandera, he has very similar ban hype. Here was a pokemon who was already dominant and powerful being given physical STAB on dark moves and being given a boost to special defense. Did this prove Uber worthy? No, not at all. Would it in the third gen environment? Of course.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i am going to try out a team that sets up light screen and reflect for my 147 dragon to deal with him being frail, i feel done right he can run through teams, also i agree no good fire move really sucks but with a attack boosting move and some move that hits neutral to skarmory he should be fine but idk till i test it out.

Also shadow tag will still be great in this gen its almost a guarantee revenge kill and every team will have to be made to counter it making it over centralized. Plus if mence was banned for the 4th gen there is no way this thing wont be banned since imo its much more broken then mence in the 4th gen

 

[Tomo Takino]

i am going to try out a team that sets up light screen and reflect for my 147 dragon to deal with him being frail, i feel done right he can run through teams, also i agree no good fire move really sucks but with a attack boosting move and some move that hits neutral to skarmory he should be fine but idk till i test it out.

Espeon lead is almost guaranteed duel screens if played right.

Also shadow tag will still be great in this gen its almost a guarantee revenge kill and every team will have to be made to counter it making it over centralized.

Every team has to to deal with certain threats. You want to make a team that's weak to Stealth Rocks, Scizor, or Heatran and jump on the ladder? Don't think so.

Plus if mence was banned for the 4th gen there is no way this thing wont be banned since imo its much more broken then mence in the 4th gen

banned for the 4th gen

Well this alone should show you how little substance this sentence has. Even more, the metagame hasn't even got rolling yet. We don't know if it will be overpowered.

 

[kirbyraeg]

We should actually discuss pokemon who we think will be important threats in the new metagame. Shandera is a good place to start.

Shortlist of potential candidates for discussion:
Hihidaruma
Terakion
Erufuun
Kyuremu
Borutorosu
Ononokusu
Urugamosu
Jaroda
Kojondo
Zuruzukin
Desukan
Daikenki

We could also discuss the trends potentially caused by new weather-abusers, particularly those new sandstorm swift swimmers.

 

[Tomo Takino]

I say we start easy and go with Ditto.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Ditto lets you have 2 Shanderra when you double switch to bait it in. :D

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

lol good point i was unclear why i brought up mence being banned in 4th gen. i never thought mence should of been banned so when i think of the people who control who is banned to ubers i think they are people who ban things very easily and if u think of them as people who ban fast and easy then shandera looks like he will be banned.

thats kinda jumbled so what to take from it: unlike smash pokemon bans what imo are questionable things which leads me to believe that shadow tag 145 spc shandera will be banned

edit: i vote with tarting with sunny day abuses b/c they might have a real use in ou this gen and since the 4th gen was wet and sandy i say lets get out into the sun for a change

 

[Terywj [태리]]

You say that, but Sandstorm still has more over Sun. First things, auto-Sun relies on Ninetales, which might be banned because of Dream World shenanigans. Rock / Steel / Ground-types have a 50% boost, and now they have equivalents of Swift Swim and Solar Power (minus the health loss) under Sandstorm. =\

 

[Tomo Takino]

Dream World's not going to be banned. They are only going to wait until the dream world pokemon abilities are confirmed to be released. So far we only have Kanghaskan and the Eevee forms. Once the Dream World is back up, we will see how to progress from there.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80342

 

[UltiMario]

Sunny Day makes Speed Boost Blaziken just that much more unstoppable. By that, I mean it can actually put a dent in Shanderaa now with Flare Blitz.

 

[Wave⁂]

Drought Vulpix, discuss.

 

[Wrath`]

Little cup becomes based on Sunny Day abusers?

 

[Tomo Takino]

Vulpix means that only Sandstorm and Sunny Day have two sun starters, so, if unseen to us, Sunny Day teams end up powerful, you'll have two Pokemon to start it. At the end of the day though, its about as viable as Abomosnow+the clefairy line lvl 1.

65/125/60/95/60/105
HP/ATC/DF/SA/SD/SPEED
Inner Focus: This Pokemon will not flinch.
Regeneration: This Pokemon regains 1/3rd of it's HP when switching out.
Reckless: Power/recoil of recoil moves is boosted.

Moves:
Level up moves: Pound, Meditate, Detect, Fake-out, Doubleslap, Swift, Calm Mind, Force Palm, Drain Punch, Jump Kick, U-turn, Trickery, Bounce, Hi-jump Kick, Reversal, Aura Sphere.

Learnable TMs: TM04 - Calm Mind, TM06 - Toxic, TM08 - Bulk Up, TM10 - Hidden Power, TM11 - Sunny Day, TM12 - Taunt, TM15 - Hyper Beam, TM17 - Protect, TM18 - Rain Dance, TM21 - Frustration, TM27 - Return, TM28 - Dig, TM31 - Brick Break, TM32 - Double Team, TM33 - Reflect, TM39 - Rock Tomb, TM40 - Aerial Ace, TM42 - Facade, TM44 - Rest, TM45 - Attract, TM47 - Ankle Sweep, TM48 - Troll, TM52 - Focus Blast, TM56 - Fling, TM62 - Acrobat, TM66 - Payback, TM67 - Get Even, TM68 - Giga Impact, TM71 - Stone Edge, TM75 - Swords Dance, TM77 - Psych Up, TM80 - Rock Slide, TM83 - Cheer Up, TM84 - Poison Jab, TM86 - Grass Knot, TM87 - Swagger, TM89 - U-Turn, TM90 - Substitute, TM94 - Rock Smash, HM04 - Strength

Egg Moves: Endure, Baton Pass, Vital Throw, Smellingsalt, Low Kick, Feint, Me First, Knock Off

The first comparison I can make to Pokemon this will be in competition for Blaziken's spot. After one speed boost, Blaziken is faster. Bulk wise, Blaziken wins out without rocks, with rocks and Regineration included, the Purple warrior is bulkier. In terms of Baton Pass, Blaziken doesn't need stat boosting moves, as his dream world ability allows him to do this freely. Its clear on a mix set that Blaziken completely outclasses him.

However, he does have enough to differntiate himself from Blaziken.

Regenerate makes him effectively bulkier than Blaziken.
Reckless increases his physical offense beyond Blaziken to a more than notable extent.
Fake Out/Knock Off/Taunt/U-turn/Baton Pass (along with plenty of boost to go along with) all provide it with good support options for its team, should it have the free moveslots.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Let's get the ball rolling with some introductory stuff.

Hihidaruma: Normal Form

Fire
HP 105
ATTACK 140
DEFENSE 55
SP. ATK 30
SP. DEF 55
SPEED 95

Hihidaruma: Daruma Form

Fire/Psychic
HP 105
ATTACK 30
DEFENSE 105
SP. ATK 140
SP. DEF 105
SPEED 55


Notable moves:
Flare Blitz
Belly Drum
Hammer Arm
Superpower
Overheat
Encore
Focus Punch
Yawn
Bulk Up
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Payback
U-turn
Psychic
Grass Knot


Hihidaruma @ Choice Band/Scarf
252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
Adamant/Jolly / Encourage

Superpower
Flare Blitz
Rock Slide/Stone Edge
U-turn

140 Atk+Encourage+Stab Flare Blitz is a scary amount of power. It 2hkos lesser fire resists who think they can come in and take the hit (has a very good chance to 2hko non-bulky versions of mence and gyara with sr up and a scarf), and will even do 32% minimum to 252/252 bold Suicune with a CB. That's scary. Superpower punishes Heatran, Rock Slide mauls Shandera and resistant flying types, and U-turn is for when you aren't sure what's coming out, letting him function as an offensive scout if you can get him in on something he can force out. This would work with a scarf too but you'd be less relying on the power of +1 Flare Blitz and more on the fact that he can be a nice late-game sweeper with his coverage. Rock Slide has more accuracy and a tiny bit more power but Stone Edge has that crit chance.


Hihidaruma @ Red Card
252 SpAtk/252 HP/4 Def
Modest / Daruma Mode

Substitute
Fire Blast
Focus Blast
Psychic/Grass Knot/Encore/Taunt

This focuses on getting into Daruma mode, where he has 105/105/105 defenses, 140 spatk, and gains the Encourage ability upon transforming. Fire Blast, Psychic, and Focus Blast are all boosted by it and he becomes Fire/Psychic type after his transformation. This set relies on unpredictability and somebody switching to a defensive switch to take care of Hihidaruma's physical assaults only to find themselves overwhelmed by powerful special attacks. Most of the items you could give him would be not very useful as far as boosting his attack or affecting his weaknesses, but Leftovers also makes it difficult to get into daruma mode in the first place. Red Card is literally the perfect item for this set (when it's released and available) because it will force out their Hihidaruma counter as they break your sub, allowing you to set up another one and transform against a target who hopefully will not be able to handle you as well. It doesn't have the speed to work as a sweeper in this mode, but it has raw power and the ability to slow-Encore something that breaks its Sub or taunt slow walls who can't muscle through its impressive defenses.


Edit: Kojondo is probably going to be the new Ambipom. It has Regeneration, scouting moves, good Atk, Taunt, and a good enough Physical movepool that it could sweep by itself with either Bulk Up or Swords Dance.

I could easily see a set like this becoming popular:

Kojondo @ Life Orb
252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
Jolly / Regeneration

Fake Out
Payback
Low Kick/Force Palm
U-turn

It has all the frailty of Ambipom but can heal itself as it switches of LO recoil and entry hazard damage. I see it being a top UU contender but that it won't see a lot of use until tiers are implemented.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I read on Smogon that Encourage doesn't actually give Flare Blitz the attack boost.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Flare Blitz has a 10% chance to burn and is therefore boosted by Encourage.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79195

 

[ss118]

Flare Blitz can burn now?
sweet

 

[Wrath`]

I thought I read on Smogon that Encourage's power was capped and FB was one of those capped moves.