• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Gen 2 Discussion/ FAQ Thread

ss118

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
3,127
Location
Savannah, Georgia
Might eventually turn this into a "how to play gen 2 thread," but since I still suck I guess I'll start here.

Well, this thread feel free to talk about the GSC competitive metagame. If you would like to play, go here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76103

I'm learning myself, so anyone who wants to play PM me here or message me on AIM.

I'm theorymonning a "new" Zapdos set, which is one of the closest things to a complete wall-breaker you are going to get.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Thunderbolt
Drill Peck
Hidden Power [Water]
Whirlwind/ Rest

Basically a more offensive Raikou that trades special bulk and speed for.... well, everything else. Though EQs are much easier to cover than Rock Slides / Ice Beams(super rare). Drill Peck hits grass types and Blissey/ Snorlax, though you're gonna need a crit/ previous damage to actually beat both of those.

So anyway, feel free to post anything you know about gen 2 here, or if you feel like asking questions about it feel free to ask and I(or some other member) will respond.
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
10,438
Location
Maryland
NNID
UltiMario
3DS FC
1719-3180-2455
I remember in my ancient, ANCIENT days using a similar Zapdos. It actually worked, against all odds.

I will not doubt the efficiency of that set.

God I can remember literally nothing from when I played Pokemon competitively as a kid.
 

kirbyraeg

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
6,440
Location
in Makai
Think you can help me figure out why I have a subscript error when trying to run netbattle on my computer? :(
 

Fuelbi

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
16,894
Location
Also PIPA and CISPA
Can't participate if I don't know how to play this gen

When does this thread turn into a thread teaching gen II?
 

xxmoosexx

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
1,086
Location
NC Mooresville
I'd also like to learn how to play this gen.

I hear of it pretty often, so i assume its better than some of the other gens.
 

ss118

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
3,127
Location
Savannah, Georgia
I guess something that intrigues people about this gen is the viability of numerous pokemon, but the ability to keep them all in check as well. While Snorlax is the top pokemon by a mile(and considered potentially broken when you factor in Lovely Kiss), it doesn't necessarily mean that the metagame stagnates, unlike what we see in some later generations.

I guess if this were to be a "How to play gen II" Thread, it would be ordered like this.

-What's the difference between gen II and later gens?
--No EVs(everything maxed)
--Physical/ Special "split"(or lack there-of)
--The stat cap(999)

-What makes gen II better?
--Variety without a threat of being unstable(IE current gen V metagame)
--Emphasis on player skill in-match
---Matches are longer
---With more information, predictions are more common
---Since every team can handle everything(usually), the players are the ones that have to break through instead of the team

-Misconceptions about gen II
--Completely stall-based
---While partly true, there are common ways that make stall almost a liability to play currently
---Lately, the metagame has been shifting to more offensive styles





Meh I wouldn't know what to start with LOL

Ask questions and I'll post long-winded answers for them, I guess.
 

xxmoosexx

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
1,086
Location
NC Mooresville
When you say the physical special split, that means the split between which TYPES were physical and special?

In which case there would be none of that in Gen II right?

I've always been confused about it.
 

Wrath`

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
4,824
Location
Binghamton, NY
So only NetBattle supports this? Well I think I shall DL it and try 2nd gen out again.

^^^above post, yeah 2nd gen still has Special/physical moves based on type not practicality. Fire Punch is a special move this gen
 

xxmoosexx

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
1,086
Location
NC Mooresville
If this does turn into a How to Play, I suggest posting some links for tier lists, and posting threats, common pokemon, common strategies. Just give a quick run down on common pokemon for each role. Like listing the top5 walls, their sets, top5 supporters and their sets, top5 attackers and etc.

But its just a suggestion.
 

Riddle

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
1,656
Location
Rochester, NY
Hey arti, you mention that 2nd Gen is based more on 'player skill' as a positive. However I feel like teambuilding is as important as battling and should be. Why should battling be emphasized over teambuilding?

I might be biased on this issue because I'm a horrid battler. I've never been able to predict at all and my strategy is less than stellar. However, I excel at one thing, teambuilding. Its just always been something I'm good at. This allows me to beat people in more diverse metagames or metagames based on teambuilding but struggle in more battling-centric metagames. I don't understand why a metagame that puts people like me at a large disadvantage is desirable. I feel like a metagame balanced between teambuilding and battling skills is the best and more recent tens are closer to that balance in my opinion.
 

ss118

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
3,127
Location
Savannah, Georgia
When you say the physical special split, that means the split between which TYPES were physical and special?

In which case there would be none of that in Gen II right?

I've always been confused about it.
In gen II, a move's dependence on whether it came out of [Sp.] Attack and went into [Sp.] Defense was completely based off of its type.

Bug, Fighting, Flying, Ghost, Steel, Rock, Poison, Normal, and Ground were all physical attacks and would work off the attack and defense stats.

Dark, Dragon, Fire, Grass, Water, Psychic, and Ice were all special attacks and would work off the sp. attack and sp. defense stats.

So only NetBattle supports this? Well I think I shall DL it and try 2nd gen out again.
Yep. The only download link is on smogon, because the usual website is down.

If this does turn into a How to Play, I suggest posting some links for tier lists, and posting threats, common pokemon, common strategies. Just give a quick run down on common pokemon for each role. Like listing the top5 walls, their sets, top5 supporters and their sets, top5 attackers and etc.

But its just a suggestion.
smogon.com/gs/tiers/uber
smogon.com/gs/tiers/ou
smogon.com/gs/tiers/bl
smogon.com/gs/tiers/uu

Only a total of five pokemon are banned, and apparently not enough pokemon were in the game to constitute a playable NU tier.

Rather than giving a top five of everything, I would probably be better off just making a list of usable pokemon and how they work starting with the most common. So basically Snorlax lol.

Your "question" was much to broad for me to directly answer.

Hey arti, you mention that 2nd Gen is based more on 'player skill' as a positive. However I feel like teambuilding is as important as battling and should be. Why should battling be emphasized over teambuilding?
OK so I might have spoken a bit prematurely. To make things more concise and to the point, there are essentially two types of teams:

1) Offensive
2) Defensive

Offensive teams work trying to execute their own strategy, while defensive teams play with a simple mindset. "Don't lose."

If you want to be more biased towards player skill in-match, then go with offensive teams where everything is completely momentum based. You have to get free turns though double-switching, and you have to abuse all of your pokemon with good synergy to break down at the opponent.

However, for more team-building oriented players there are defensive teams, more commonly known as "stall." Ideally for a stall team, you have six pokemon that can separately wall all six of your opponent's pokemon. This is important especially against teams that try to abuse Explosion, because if they end up doing a trade-off it won't terribly bother you.

Team building is important for both teams. For offensive teams, they need to be able to take enough hits from other offensive teams so that they can break through faster. Stall teams need to have their bases spread out as far as possible so they can split all six of their pokemon separately. But then you end up with stall vs stall, and you see how the metagame got its reputation, because neither is truly able to break through the other. Both are too busy "not losing" to actually win.

On the other hand, playing-skill is emphasized because to be able to play stall, you have to play against them. Get your pokemon in sooner and more often, keep cracking at the one weak spot on their wall. IE, Marowak is known as a good stall breaker. It can beat faster counters like cloyster by constantly spamming EQ and waiting for it to rest eventually by forcing it out with something like Raikou. Two turns of leftovers won't beat a single EQ from it, and considering crits it probably won't last long. Against pokemon like Skarmory, you have like a 12% chance of beating it if you SD on the switch and try to Rock Slide through it.... or you could run Fire Blast. In which case, nothing is safe LOL

It's hard to say in words why playing is more emphasized this gen than others, but I just feel it is.
 

Riddle

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
1,656
Location
Rochester, NY
I completely agree that playing is more emphasized in that gen. I just want to know why you think thats a positive. And I've delved into all that stall vs offense stuff. I totally agree with most of your analysis.
 

ss118

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
3,127
Location
Savannah, Georgia
I think it's a positive because if you can actually battle then you can put up a good fight regardless of your team-building skills, regardless of generation. If you are 10x better than your opponent you can beat him pretty handily, regardless if you use Doryuuzu or Plusle. =P

I had a really long answer that I had been typing up for days, but my cpu randomly shut off and that's the jist of it. Really one of the more thought-provoking questions I've ever gotten.
 

ss118

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
3,127
Location
Savannah, Georgia
don't be giving away my strategies!!! ='[

Generations were so much better when stats were set, imo. Because then A lot of unnecessary worries are thrown out the window, and the true potential of all pokemon are truly understood.

For example, currently if an Infernape got hit by T-Tar EQ:

403 Atk vs 178 Def & 294 HP (100 Base Power): 326 - 384 (110.88% - 130.61%)

Yeah, Infernape is pretty screwed. This limits his uses entirely to a pure-sweeper, and limits the way he can be played around your opponents team. In GSC:

366 Atk vs 240 Def & 355 HP (100 Base Power): 220 - 260 (61.97% - 73.24%)

Notice the bit of a difference. It gives a much bigger boost to stat-upping strategies, something that is completely undervalued in the current metagame, which is centralizing about throwing out as many big hits as possible till the other teams crumble. Doryuuzu fits in all this as just being a very safe and secure cleaner once this happens, with the typing and stats to give itself one free turn to take a single hit and guarantee a KO.

I'd be really interesting in creating a "Gen 1/2 Clause", where stats are set up like this. Not seriously competitive, but it would be interesting.
 

ss118

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
3,127
Location
Savannah, Georgia
OK, so I guess I'll talk why gen II is so stall-based, and why even considering that it is believed to be the best gen.

First off, why it is stall-based: consider what gen 2 brought to the table. Skarmory and Blissey, Suicune and Raikou, and a heap of other defensive threats. At the same time, the special split(because in RBY, the special attack and defense were off the same stat) added even more to the defensiveness of certain threats(Snorlax), while limiting the offensive capabilities of certain pokemon(Tauros with his RBY special stat would still ****). Add onto the fact that stats couldn't break past 999 and typing helped to make certain walls unbreakable by an entire spectrum and you can see even more why it became so.

The lack of EVs also added onto why the metagame was so stall-based. Every stat, in comparison to current pokemon, is 248 EVs in with a hardy nature. The EV system limited the potential pokemon it could wall(even though it could wall particular pokemon more when EVed particularly), while also putting a cap on the attacking abilities of the defensive pokemon. On the other hand, offensive threats have more power behind their attacks, IE how Tyranitar has 403 attack max now but in GSC only had 366.

Finally, the base power of the attacks were at an all-time low. In order of power behind attack:

250(Explosion, effectively 500)
200(Self-destruct, effectively 40)
150(Hyper Beam, always recharge so useless)
120(Double-Edge, Fire Blast, Thunder, Blizzard, Megahorn, Hydro Pump)
102(Frustration, Return)
100(Cross Chop)

Then you hit 95 and less, which really doesn't count as wall breaking. Considering that even a STAB Fire Blast coming from 999 Sp.Attack doesn't even 2HKO Blissey, and it makes it truly apparent that sp sweepers didn't exist unless they could threaten explosion(sometimes leech seed).

It's also much harder to wear down on Counters, with Spikes being the only way to wear down on teams(and even then only one layer at 12.5%), and Rapid Spin is so easy to get off with there being 4 ghost-types total(two being NFE).

Later I'll explain how offense even stands a chance.
 
Top Bottom