Ganondorf needs to be closer to Melee's Version

[Aerros11]

So, I've been playing as him (with the awesome Demise costume :D) for a long time.. and I've also played Melee for years.

Here's what I consider needing changes--changes which should have some of his moves equal in every way to his moves in melee:

>Down-B [Wizard's Foot] (Air/Grounded)
.. Knock back is too far
.. Range of attack is too long
.. Landing lag is too short

>Dash Attack [Shoulder Tackle]
.. Attack execution too fast
.. Knock-back too far

>Neutral A [Jab] (Grounded)
.. Uncertain, but it feels more reliable than Melee's jab
..perhaps knock-back is to blame

>Side-B [Flame Choke] (Air)
.. Enemy Character's bounce is too punishable, especially with the latest modification to U-tilt (grounded, of course) where use of it after side-B if timed only connects the heel drop; enemy should not bounce after Aerial Flame Choke landing and should be able to tech if anything.

>F-Tilt [Spartan Kick!] (Grounded)
.. Knock back too far
.. Execution too fast

---
Feedback is much appreciated.
We cannot deny that he is more powerful in Project M than in Melee.

 

[Spralwers]

Unless crazy advances occur in his meta, Ganon is actually worse off in this game than he is in melee. So no, he doesn't need any nerfs.

 

[CORY]

you're right, he is much more powerful, but the game around him has changed and he's put in the bottom(ish) tier by most everyone due to his really bad neutral game and inability to deal with projectiles/mobility camping.

and you can tech aerial flame choke's bounce. whether it can be done before ganon can jab is fall speed (and slightly di) dependent, but against most characters you're only getting the jab directly from it, which is far from broken as far as guaranteed combos go.

 

[Aerros11]

You guys are judging Ganon based on poorly skilled players.

Ganondorf can punch, f-tilt, shoulder bash, or wizard's foot most projectiles, or use the deflect option from a standard shield versus most projectiles.

Mobility spamming can be dealt with using patience and is often very predictable because of space limitations from the spam.

Combos from Aerial Flame choke:
>U-tilt at a middle-high percentage
guaranteed
>Jab
>Wizard's foot

Ganondorf is mostly played as a defensive character. Anyone who uses him too offensively will get trumped, which is probably all you have seen.

Either way, his moves are still not equivalent to their melee counterpart which is overly advantageous.

 

[CORY]

Y

Combos from Aerial Flame choke:
>U-tilt at a middle-high percentage
guaranteed
>Jab
>Wizard's foot

who are you getting guarantees against? because aerial flame choke's bounce is fall speed dependent. against fast fallers, you get no guarantees, only a chance to read tech options.

against mid speed falls (around mario/charizard/ganon) you can hit with a jab, maybe a grab if they di just right and you react quickly. utilt could work around this fall speed, but it could also be di'd the opposite way you're attacking due to the first hit, so it's far from a guarantee.

against floatier characters (squirtle/ivy/peach and beyond) you can start getting absolutely silly followups, since they can't tech before you recover, but that still scales up with their fall speed going down. squirtle starts letting you try to ftilt, iirc. ivy is similar, but falls slower, so you can get better setups. then poor jiggly puff can be uair'd out of aerial flame choke, at the very lowest fall speed. you might be able to wizkick her, but she might also float too high in the air to land it. somewhere in between someone might fall into the perfect fall speed to land a wiz kick, but it's not guaranteed against most of the cast at all.

 

[teluoborg]

Hello Aerros11, and welcome to the PM Ganon boards.

Why do you want Ganon's moves to be back to their Melee version ? How would it benefit Ganon ? Do you find him too powerful ?

You say that Ganon is a character that is meant to be played defensively, but how do you play him defensively ?

 

[Aerros11]

Working backwards from Teluoborg, firstly, I see Ganon's moves have been slightly tweaked compared to Melee's counter parts (differences stated in original post, otherwise I'll find frame data). This is a fact.

Used correctly, these tweaked moves have made Ganondorf a bit too powerful, more than he should be. It's not a question about what would benefit Ganondorf, but a question of, would it be more fair? I think it would be more fair.

Fight an able friend with Ganondorf in PM then in Melee, the difference is too drastic.

Defense play:
Ganondorf benefits from having enemies approach him. This is mostly because his pursuing moves are very predictable.

Merely from shielding, Ganondorf has at least 5 counters (though not secured)::
>Up-B [Dark Dive] (diagonal forward up for in front/diagonal backwards up for behind him)
>A [Grab] of course
>Aerial Side-B [Flame Choke]
>D-Air [Stomp]
>Up Smash

F-tilt or Jab, Side-B, Down-B, D-Tilt do well with timing in trumping several ground approaches.

F-Air works well after jumping backwards

...
Do you guys want a video, is that it? I smell disbelief.

 

[Dr. Krumm]

I must say that I disagree completely with the OP. Ganondorf only need 1 change in this game in my opinion. His old UP-throw, the new one seems to be stronger then the melee version. Meaning that Ganondorf does not have as much useful UP-throw follow ups anymore.

Ganondorf is indeed considered a mid tier character by most, that may change in the future, but as of right now, there are a lot of stronger characters. While he is stronger than the melee version of Ganondorf, he still suffers from the same big weaknesses.

- Terrible recovery (however it has been improved, but it's still arguable one of the worst recoveries).
- Bad neutral game.
- Have a difficult time while being pressured. (Fox and Falco shine and N-air pressure still destroys him)
- He hates projectiles.
- He is awkward to approach with.

While Ganondorf likes to play defensively, often, he cannot. A lot of characters have projectiles forcing him into approaching, which still is quite awkward to do as Ganondorf.

 

[Aerros11]

who are you getting guarantees against? because aerial flame choke's bounce is fall speed dependent. against fast fallers, you get no guarantees, only a chance to read tech options.

against mid speed falls (around mario/charizard/ganon) you can hit with a jab, maybe a grab if they di just right and you react quickly. utilt could work around this fall speed, but it could also be di'd the opposite way you're attacking due to the first hit, so it's far from a guarantee.

against floatier characters (squirtle/ivy/peach and beyond) you can start getting absolutely silly followups, since they can't tech before you recover, but that still scales up with their fall speed going down. squirtle starts letting you try to ftilt, iirc. ivy is similar, but falls slower, so you can get better setups. then poor jiggly puff can be uair'd out of aerial flame choke, at the very lowest fall speed. you might be able to wizkick her, but she might also float too high in the air to land it. somewhere in between someone might fall into the perfect fall speed to land a wiz kick, but it's not guaranteed against most of the cast at all.

With a missed tech from an aerial Flame Choke, at an appropriate percentage, most characters will not be able to avoid a U-tilt... which feels cheap for me once successful...
that bounce is too punishable. Do you deny this?

 

[Aerros11]

I must say that I disagree completely with the OP. Ganondorf only need 1 change in this game in my opinion. His old UP-throw, the new one seems to be stronger then the melee version. Meaning that Ganondorf does not have as much useful UP-throw follow ups anymore.

Ganondorf is indeed considered a mid tier character by most, that may change in the future, but as of right now, there are a lot of stronger characters. While he is stronger than the melee version of Ganondorf, he still suffers from the same big weaknesses.

- Terrible recovery (however it has been improved, but it's still arguable one of the worst recoveries).
- Bad neutral game.
- Have a difficult time while being pressured. (Fox and Falco shine and N-air pressure still destroys him)
- He hates projectiles.
- He is awkward to approach with.

While Ganondorf likes to play defensively, often, he cannot. A lot of characters have projectiles forcing him into approaching, which still is quite awkward to do as Ganondorf.

Down-throw has always been Ganon's best throw move. Period. Combos from Up-throws are not as varied if at all possible at mid-high percentages.

Ganondorf can recover with his Side-B from slightly under the ledge, just enough to avoid safe ledge guarding attacks like March's Side-Smash or D-Tilt, Falco's Down-Smash, Falcon's Up-Tilt to name a few.

When forced to move and approach, it has to be done intelligently. Shoulder bashing is good for some uses as is getting close enough to use a D-tilt or F-tilt, or predictable F-Air. But using a B-air or U-air and landing behind the opponent is often key, since landing if front of them is punishable. Or, land in front of them and hope they don't perfect shield if they're close enough to a ledge to be pushed back onto grabbing it

 

[Xinc]

With a missed tech from an aerial Flame Choke, at an appropriate percentage, most characters will not be able to avoid a U-tilt... which feels cheap for me once successful...
that bounce is too punishable. Do you deny this?

Except that in high levels of play, you will rarely get that perfect read. And not necessarily. Some characters are light enough to get hit by the weaker hitbox with the wrong timing. In addition, that bounce may be punishable but like everything else in Melee, a combo or death begins through a mistake. Ganon needs to fish for these mistakes in order to win but he has very limited options: side b, grab/throw, and stomp.

I feel your stance is not the best for Ganon. He already has a hard time against the cast. Why give him more weaknesses? He already sucks at approaching and he's a punish character, meaning he'll have a hard time against spacies and characters that have an emphasis on precision.

And with your next post, D-throw is Ganon's best move, but it is technically his only viable combo starting throw. His side B aerial is short and punishable. In fact, everything about Ganon spells punishable if you make a simple misstep.

 

[Aerros11]

"If you make a single misstep"
I don't like the way these arguments are structured. Any character who makes any misstep will be punished. So saying that Ganondorf is mistake-prone as is any character doesn't have a place here.

D-throw is his best GRAB move, not his best overall move. Having only one viable throw doesn't make the rest of his set, useless.

At a certain percentage range, the up-tilt misses for some reason during the bounce animation after an aerial Flame Choke, leaving only the heel drop as a connecting attack.

The stomp move and flame chokes should be scarcely used anyway, used only when connecting is certain.

 

[CORY]

that's a missed tech, so that's on their end, not yours.

and the bounce is not too punishing. your best bet from it is almost always a tech chase (unless the opponent is at lower percents, and is also grab/jab-able from the bounce. then your bet is to jab/grab and get more damage, rather than try for wizkick punish on their tech option).

as for his oos options:
upb comes out in 13 frames.
dair comes out in 22 frames.
his grab is the standard frame 7, though it has bad range.
and usmash starts frame 13, as well.

these are all on the slower end (sans grab, which is standard), since you can't do any of them until your shield stun is over. if you're being spaced while in shield, dair, usmash, and grab are all not doing anything. upb likely won't either, but it can catch people by surprise sometimes, so it's not terrible.

if you're being pressured, the only options you'd have are grab (which pressure is usually made to beat, much like ganon jabbing someone after an aerial) or to dodge/roll/tough it out. his dodge is bad. his rolls are nice, but if you get read, much like anyone else, you get punished.

we've also seen vids. there's a whole thread of them, actually. many of us have also played in tourneys, which i'm assuming you have as well. you can't just sit back and play "non approach" ganon. you don't have a way to force someone else to approach you on your terms effectively and you don't have a solid way to stop projectiles. tilting/jabbing/psing them helps, but with ganon's poor mobility and oos options, if someone starts throwing stuff at you, your only out is to just shield it or try to clank it. if the opponent understands this, you're playing his game, and you don't have a way to change that until they make a mistake.

but ganon can't force people to make mistakes easily. not as easily as most of the cast can force him to, anyway.

 

[teluoborg]

Ok so you find Ganon is a bit too powerful and want to tune him down. The thing is : the general consensus is that Ganon is at the lower end of the spectrum in PM, the recent CT tier list has even put him in the lower mid tiers (see this link).

So it's either one of those two things ;
-you are the only one who has unlocked the true power of Ganon, and are a level above the actual tournament players
-you and your friends are inexperimented with PM and haven't figured Ganon's weaknesses yet.

My guess goes for the second theory.


It's not meant to be offensive, but you should just really play the game more, play other characters and you'll realize that there are many character that are way more powerful than Ganon right now.

 

[Aerros11]

that's a missed tech, so that's on their end, not yours.

and the bounce is not too punishing. your best bet from it is almost always a tech chase (unless the opponent is at lower percents, and is also grab/jab-able from the bounce. then your bet is to jab/grab and get more damage, rather than try for wizkick punish on their tech option).

as for his oos options:
upb comes out in 13 frames.
dair comes out in 22 frames.
his grab is the standard frame 7, though it has bad range.
and usmash starts frame 13, as well.

these are all on the slower end (sans grab, which is standard), since you can't do any of them until your shield stun is over. if you're being spaced while in shield, dair, usmash, and grab are all not doing anything. upb likely won't either, but it can catch people by surprise sometimes, so it's not terrible.

if you're being pressured, the only options you'd have are grab (which pressure is usually made to beat, much like ganon jabbing someone after an aerial) or to dodge/roll/tough it out. his dodge is bad. his rolls are nice, but if you get read, much like anyone else, you get punished.

we've also seen vids. there's a whole thread of them, actually. many of us have also played in tourneys, which i'm assuming you have as well. you can't just sit back and play "non approach" ganon. you don't have a way to force someone else to approach you on your terms effectively and you don't have a solid way to stop projectiles. tilting/jabbing/psing them helps, but with ganon's poor mobility and oos options, if someone starts throwing stuff at you, your only out is to just shield it or try to clank it. if the opponent understands this, you're playing his game, and you don't have a way to change that until they make a mistake.

but ganon can't force people to make mistakes easily. not as easily as most of the cast can force him to, anyway.

It's about finding openings. Openings aren't exactly mistakes. Not at least in the same sense as pressuring a character into an unfavorable position on their end.

Not approaching IS an option versus an aggressive opponent. Since when is it not an option?

For every other point, you yourself stated valid counter arguments and saved me some trouble. Thank you for that.

 

[Aerros11]

You saying I should enter a tournament to prove everyone wrong?

 

[Spralwers]

You saying I should enter a tournament to prove everyone wrong?

Yes. If the general consensus is that a character is weak, it always takes a top level player doing well with that character (Hungrybox with Jiggs, Amsa with Yoshi, etc) to show otherwise. Save up some money, pick a major tournament (Apex, SKTAR, etc), go there, and deal some major damage.

 

[Aerros11]

Aye. Agreed. Thanks for reading, guys.

 

[teluoborg]

It doesn't need to be a major tournament, simply having a video showing the way you play against an opponent that isn't a complete sandbag will illustrate your argument more than a thousand posts will ever do.

But yeah, understand that most of the people here play Ganon on a regular basis and came through some common conclusions, so if you want to break the consensus you need heavier arguments than simply words. Like sprawler said : tournament results are the best you can do to prove your point.

 

[Aerros11]

Gotchya, hopefully a few videos will suffice.

 

[Bazkip]

Even Kage thinks Ganon is bad in PM, and while I don't think he's got a ton of PM experience, his opinion definitely carries some weight.

 

[Aerros11]

Any opinion based on insufficient evidence is not an accurate educated guess

 

[Thor]

You're just facing bad people. Play good people and you'll see Ganon desperately needs a few buffs if people want him to be high-tier (if you're landing all these flame chokes your opponents should learn to dodge it - it's really easy to avoid...)

 

[Yanoss1313]

So, I've been playing as him (with the awesome Demise costume :D) for a long time.. and I've also played Melee for years.

Here's what I consider needing changes--changes which should have some of his moves equal in every way to his moves in melee:

>Down-B [Wizard's Foot] (Air/Grounded)
.. Knock back is too far
.. Range of attack is too long
.. Landing lag is too short

>Dash Attack [Shoulder Tackle]
.. Attack execution too fast
.. Attack damage too powerful

>Neutral A [Jab] (Grounded)
.. Uncertain, but it feels more reliable than Melee's jab

>Side-B [Flame Choke] (Air)
.. Enemy Character's bounce is too punishable, especially with the latest modification to U-tilt (grounded, of course) where use of it after side-B if timed only connects the heel drop; enemy should not bounce after Aerial Flame Choke landing and should be able to tech if anything.

>F-Tilt [Spartan Kick!] (Grounded)
.. Knock back too far
.. Execution too fast

---
Feedback is much appreciated.
We cannot deny that he is more powerful in Project M than in Melee.

I agree with you on some points Aerros11, it's true that ganon has better attributes than he had in melee, so by definition, he's stronger overall.
The problem i have (and many others seems to have), is that this only applies when considered on it's own. Sure, he's stronger than ever, but with the exception of a few melee vets... So is everyone else.

the recent CT tier list has even put him in the lower mid tiers (see this link).

Let's not sugur coat it though, in that list he's 6th from the bottom... meaning that there are a whopping 35 characters that are more well off that him.
For some context, he was 10th in melee, leaving 9 characters above him and 15 below.

I'm the last person to take a tier list as the "end all-be all" on a characters strengths and weaknesses.

But before you can take your character to top eights and beyond, you MUST both accept and understand their weaknesses, or you're gonna get mollywhopped.

Edit:Sorry if that sounded a little ranty. also, it may not have been clear, but i added the reply from teluoborg for some conext, it's still entirely meant as a reply to Aerros11

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I hope you realize that literally all the defensive options you listed can be countered really easily. Like dude, are you playing the same game as us? LOL

You also don't account for ending lag on all those moves. What I mean is, if you miss, you will get punished every single time.

 

[Aerros11]

Just wait for the vids.. no ETA, though.

 

[Droß]

You should try winning a tournament before attempting to make claims about balance changes. You remind me of the bronze league players in Starcraft or League of Legends who think they theory-craft at Grandmaster level and therefore have an opinion as valid as that of the pros.

It's totally cool to discuss what you think of the character and toy around with ideas, but pretending you're some sort of authority on the subject is a bit silly.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I'm not even gonna sugar-coat this.

Nigg@, shut yo' as$

Ganon is NOT too powerful in P:M. Sure, he's improved, but other characters are improved even more than him.

Kage thinks Ganon is bad. He is THE Ganon player as far as most people are concerned. His "opinion" isn't mere opinion.

He said Ganon is bad. Ganon is bad.

 

[teluoborg]

Yall should really stop posting in this thread to answer things that have already been anwsered.

 

[CORY]

It's about finding openings. Openings aren't exactly mistakes. Not at least in the same sense as pressuring a character into an unfavorable position on their end.

Not approaching IS an option versus an aggressive opponent. Since when is it not an option?

For every other point, you yourself stated valid counter arguments and saved me some trouble. Thank you for that.

what counter arguments? that his oos options are bad against players who know how to space and/or read properly, due to range and/or speed of them coming out?

and how do you find openings when the opponent doesn't need to approach you? ganon is aaaaaaaaalmost there, in terms of being a strong punishment character. he's just too easy to lock down or lock out of useful engagements with a lot of the cast.

 

[Aerros11]

what counter arguments? that his oos options are bad against players who know how to space and/or read properly, due to range and/or speed of them coming out?

and how do you find openings when the opponent doesn't need to approach you? ganon is aaaaaaaaalmost there, in terms of being a strong punishment character. he's just too easy to lock down or lock out of useful engagements with a lot of the cast.

You stated arguments, then argued against the points you just made.

Kage is too aggressive and doesn't jab enough.

Just wait for the vids. thanks

 

[Nguz95]

Holy crap...
This reminds me of a certain thread called "Ganon's Prioritys." Aerros, I would recommend you check out some of Ganon's frame data. You may find that some moves operate at surprising speeds in comparison to Melee.

 

[Aerros11]

Oh, and platforms work against Ganon, too O:

 

[Yanoss1313]

Holy crap...
This reminds me of a certain thread called "Ganon's Prioritys." Aerros, I would recommend you check out some of Ganon's frame data. You may find that some moves operate at surprising speeds in comparison to Melee.

lol, i was just thinking that... a certain "better than kage and pc chris" ganon main, hmm?.....>.>..... hehehe

 

[X WaNtEd X]

If this guy pulls out the upset, I will suck his ****.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah guys don't create any unnecessary drama and just wait for the vids.

 

[Spralwers]

If you do happen to be a lot better with PM Ganon than all of us, you should help us out in the match up, video, and strategy threads.

 

[Aerros11]

Everyone has their own style with each character. I never understood the point to a match up or strategy guide. What I would like to see documented is the percent range per character vs Ganon where his chain grabbing succeeds : D
Or perhaps I could contribute to a standard list of combos...

 

[teluoborg]

You're completely right in the fact that these are the kind of things those boards need right now.

Though a matchup thread and a strategy discussion are important to let people share their experience and evolve Ganon's metagame.

I guess I'll start some threads when I have the time.

 

[Alondite]

The last thing any PM character needs is to be more like their Melee counterpart. That whole design philosophy is beyond stupid. If anything, Ganon needs a complete rebuild because there's just no good way to buff his current build to make him compete at the highest levels.