Supreme Dirt
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This week is Wario and Marth. No witty image or anything, sorry.
Discuss.
Discuss.
-
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Ganondorf 2011 Matchup Discussion - Wario
- Thread starter Supreme Dirt
- Start date
Ganon actually has a chance in this matchup due to not one, but TWO 0-death combos on Wario.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpSPp3q2oms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5DVHC0J9KM&feature=player_detailpage#t=54s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpSPp3q2oms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5DVHC0J9KM&feature=player_detailpage#t=54s
A2ZOMG
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Uh, it's not the 0-death that actually makes Ganon do well in this matchup. It's the fact Wario has to actually respect what little ability Ganon has to zone and wall. Wario has to actually kinda work to get past Ganon's U-air/N-air spacing. Combine that pivot grabbing with Ganon is actually a fairly decent option, Wario approaching Ganon is always in some way a risk.
The threat of getting grabbed is mainly because of grab release F-smash tbh. 25% from a grab, or a kill at like 85% is nothing to laugh at.
But Wario does camp on a lead better, so I'd say about 60/40 Wario's favor.
The threat of getting grabbed is mainly because of grab release F-smash tbh. 25% from a grab, or a kill at like 85% is nothing to laugh at.
But Wario does camp on a lead better, so I'd say about 60/40 Wario's favor.
Pwneroni
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Greetings, Ganon boards! The Wario boards come in peace, let us do friendly battle with money and fame on the line! Ready, FIGHT!
Ganon's aerials beat Wario's in a head on collision, but head on collisions are not what Wario is about. He is a small, quick moving flurry of non-disjointed hitboxes and dodges, and his goal will be to outmaneuver you and get inside your defense. His bite is really good against shields, so if he mixes up a few bites in there it will hurt.
Ganon has some awesome stuff of his own, as shown by B. Mack. Ganon's grab range is rather small, but if he actually gets a grab it's pretty much GG for Wario. The tire lock + flame choke combo is pretty sick, it may be escapable with proper SDI but hey maybe not.
If the Wario metagame starts to fully embrace tires.... y'all better prepare yourselves. Tires are fantastic at covering options, forcing shields and Wario can pull off some crazy cool combos to boot. With tires in the mix, I would say this mu is 60-40 Wario's favor. Without tires it is 55-45.
Ganon's aerials beat Wario's in a head on collision, but head on collisions are not what Wario is about. He is a small, quick moving flurry of non-disjointed hitboxes and dodges, and his goal will be to outmaneuver you and get inside your defense. His bite is really good against shields, so if he mixes up a few bites in there it will hurt.
Ganon has some awesome stuff of his own, as shown by B. Mack. Ganon's grab range is rather small, but if he actually gets a grab it's pretty much GG for Wario. The tire lock + flame choke combo is pretty sick, it may be escapable with proper SDI but hey maybe not.
If the Wario metagame starts to fully embrace tires.... y'all better prepare yourselves. Tires are fantastic at covering options, forcing shields and Wario can pull off some crazy cool combos to boot. With tires in the mix, I would say this mu is 60-40 Wario's favor. Without tires it is 55-45.
A2ZOMG
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That's silly, why would I worry about items that simply disappear on shield (as well as the fact I'm pretty certain you can outprioritize them as well)? If anything I'd worry more about his silly chaingrab on Ganon.
Matchup is 60/40 factoring everything I've stated. Ganon honestly isn't going to be 0-death comboing Wario out of grab since pummel damage is *** and you can SDI D-air to not get gimped offstage like that.
But a grab means death at 85%. It's not actually hard for Ganon to get Wario to that damage if the Wario feels the needs to approach Ganon. Throw out U-airs, either retreating or buffered out of shield. They ruin a lot of Wario's typical spacing strategies, and they can be very difficult for Wario to punish since an autocanceled U-air might only have about 11 or so frames of cooldown after the last hitbox.
Matchup is 60/40 factoring everything I've stated. Ganon honestly isn't going to be 0-death comboing Wario out of grab since pummel damage is *** and you can SDI D-air to not get gimped offstage like that.
But a grab means death at 85%. It's not actually hard for Ganon to get Wario to that damage if the Wario feels the needs to approach Ganon. Throw out U-airs, either retreating or buffered out of shield. They ruin a lot of Wario's typical spacing strategies, and they can be very difficult for Wario to punish since an autocanceled U-air might only have about 11 or so frames of cooldown after the last hitbox.
Supreme Dirt
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Oh wow, FORCED RISING OUT OF GERUDO. I seem to remember a thread exploring ways to do this.
Dynomite
Smash Champion
Tricky stuff. Ganon can space wario quite well, but dont get controlled.
Imo, bite destroys ganon so hard.
Grab release>up angled Fsmash can kill us pretty well so keep that inmind.
I would personally play this matchup with trying to get inside with bites and some Dthrow pressure combined with juggling.
upair ***** in this matchup for both characters.
Wario might have a hard time killing ganon if he spaces well and is grounded.
Imo, bite destroys ganon so hard.
Grab release>up angled Fsmash can kill us pretty well so keep that inmind.
I would personally play this matchup with trying to get inside with bites and some Dthrow pressure combined with juggling.
upair ***** in this matchup for both characters.
Wario might have a hard time killing ganon if he spaces well and is grounded.
Exalted
Smash Lord
Nice one, Makke.
But why is it named Jab Locks? More like a Toe Lock.
But why is it named Jab Locks? More like a Toe Lock.
Supreme Dirt
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Okay, we have a guaranteed kill on Wario out of a grab. I'm going to go so far as to say this could come as close as 55:45 Wario, possibly even.
What do we need to watch out for from Wario? Stages? I'm pretty sure banning Rainbow Cruise is obvious, and probably getting him to Final Desination could work well.
What do we need to watch out for from Wario? Stages? I'm pretty sure banning Rainbow Cruise is obvious, and probably getting him to Final Desination could work well.
A2ZOMG
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Platforms, such as those on BF are a double-edged sword for Ganon in this matchup. They are GREAT at limiting approach options from Wario. The only catch is you cannot rely on grab releases kills as easily from under a platform.
Avoid Brinstar since the platforms there really aren't that abuseable for Ganon, and really only make it easier for Wario to platform camp you, as well as the fact the lava is gay for Ganon to deal with. Rainbow Cruise on the other hand I can't see as being particularly bad for Ganon as long as you know how to navigate it efficiently. There are times on RC where the layout of the stage is good for limiting approach options, which is what you want.
Wario does have a chaingrab on Ganon and he's also EXTREMELY difficult to catch if he camps on a lead, so I hesitate to say the matchup is better than 60/40 Wario. It isn't worse though because it actually isn't hard for Ganon to get the lead in this matchup.
Avoid Brinstar since the platforms there really aren't that abuseable for Ganon, and really only make it easier for Wario to platform camp you, as well as the fact the lava is gay for Ganon to deal with. Rainbow Cruise on the other hand I can't see as being particularly bad for Ganon as long as you know how to navigate it efficiently. There are times on RC where the layout of the stage is good for limiting approach options, which is what you want.
Wario does have a chaingrab on Ganon and he's also EXTREMELY difficult to catch if he camps on a lead, so I hesitate to say the matchup is better than 60/40 Wario. It isn't worse though because it actually isn't hard for Ganon to get the lead in this matchup.
Supreme Dirt
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Yeah, RC is actually a great stage for Ganon. I don't know why more people don't use it against not-Metaknight.
Supreme Dirt
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So Ganon's game in this MU should, imo, revolve around tricking Wario into getting grabbed.
Supreme Dirt
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I could see something like Lylat or Smashville being pretty cool for this MU. Platform cancel -> grab.
Supreme Dirt
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I think we're fine, I don't have access to Brawl right now to check though.
footstools out of grab release arent guaranteed because Wario can simply DI away to avoid it.
not necessarily. but that's the easy way to play this matchup. against a top-level Wario you're gonna need to focus more on spacing and baiting his approaches bcos relying on those grab tricks wont do much for you.
A2ZOMG
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Ganon vs Wario isn't about grabbing him, though the THREAT of it and the relative safety of pivot grabbing allows Ganon to pull off a certain strategy viably. The POINT of Ganon vs Wario is to wall him and maintain the lead, because Ganon DOES actually have the tools to do this against Wario. Wario cannot come in directly on any of Ganon's aerials, and Ganon does enough damage per hit to come out ahead on trades all the time basically, which should happen infrequently for the most part. Thanks to the threat of Ganon's grab, Wario has to always be extremely careful about landing against Ganon, which means that he has to play in the air more, where Ganon is strong against him since Wario happens to be one of few characters that isn't hard for Ganon to anti-air. Grabbing Wario and scoring a KO from it mainly just makes it A LOT easier to maintain the lead, which keeps you in a favorable position.
From the start of this match, I actually expect Ganondorf to land the first hits, for the simple fact that he will win direct exchanges.
The only problem with this strategy is that once you lose the lead against Wario (which can happen if Wario gets some high damage juggles or CGs Ganon for a bit or if he manages a random gimp), and if Wario chooses to to camp on it, it becomes incredibly difficult to beat Wario since Ganon doesn't have good approaches.
From the start of this match, I actually expect Ganondorf to land the first hits, for the simple fact that he will win direct exchanges.
The only problem with this strategy is that once you lose the lead against Wario (which can happen if Wario gets some high damage juggles or CGs Ganon for a bit or if he manages a random gimp), and if Wario chooses to to camp on it, it becomes incredibly difficult to beat Wario since Ganon doesn't have good approaches.
I don't have time at the moment to do a full write-up, but I think all that needs to be said about this MU is: <aerial walls>.
I've fought SlikVik, Malcolm, Waymas, Waft and Zebra (yes, I know the ladder three are WiFi players, but it's just to enhance the point) and a bunch of other Warios of prestige and have had enormous success with that one tactic. Wario CAN jump higher than Ganon and DAir punish sloppily-spaced aerials, but stay one step ahead by keeping your spacing tight. Wario can find ways around the aerials if they're creative, but you can be just as creative with your spacing. It's 60:40 Wario, in my opinion, but still obviously very winnable. Also, to be honest, don't bother with gimmicks like GRs and stuff in this MU; they're really not needed at all. It's much more effective to just keep a tight wall up and forget about getting a grab unless the Wario opens himself up to it.
Oh, and another thing: Wario's NAirs. Don't be baited into trying to shieldgrab them. Nine times out of ten, the Wario is weave behind you, so read it.
I've fought SlikVik, Malcolm, Waymas, Waft and Zebra (yes, I know the ladder three are WiFi players, but it's just to enhance the point) and a bunch of other Warios of prestige and have had enormous success with that one tactic. Wario CAN jump higher than Ganon and DAir punish sloppily-spaced aerials, but stay one step ahead by keeping your spacing tight. Wario can find ways around the aerials if they're creative, but you can be just as creative with your spacing. It's 60:40 Wario, in my opinion, but still obviously very winnable. Also, to be honest, don't bother with gimmicks like GRs and stuff in this MU; they're really not needed at all. It's much more effective to just keep a tight wall up and forget about getting a grab unless the Wario opens himself up to it.
Oh, and another thing: Wario's NAirs. Don't be baited into trying to shieldgrab them. Nine times out of ten, the Wario is weave behind you, so read it.
A2ZOMG
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U-air oos is REALLY good in this matchup. I mean don't explicitly rely on it, but the point is Wario has to respect it. It's ESPECIALLY good at shutting down a lot of his crossover shenanigans. It's worth noting that tipman U-air is pretty good at cleanly beating Wario's F-smash while also being relatively difficult for Wario to punish with aerials as well.