Ganon vs top tiers

[Alter Requiem]

I recently attended Evo 2015 not expecting to do very well. to my surprise I actually made it farther than I thought I would, even eliminating nintendude's zss with my Ganondorf. Ultimately I was eliminated after one loss from a Rosalina that was camping and one loss from a Luigi that I just didn't know how to deal with at the time. The only practice I had before going into the tournament was a substantial amount of games against a Mario who is a good friend of mine. I'm convinced if I had some practice with a Rosalina or Luigi I could have taken my bracket and maybe gotten some streamed games.

http://evo2015.s3.amazonaws.com/brackets/ssb4_b48.html

I went by Alter Requiem this tournament. it's kind of an umbrella handle i use when I'm not sure if I'm just going to be playing smash. I have game 1 recorded and will upload it as soon as i can get it off my friends phone. Couldn't record game 2 or 3 due to battery dying unfortunately.

I guess i just wanted some pointers or tips on how to deal with super top tiers, or maybe pick up a few sparring partners for those matchups.

Thx in advance bbl with video

 

[hakaithesamurai]

For dealing with Luigi with any character I try to limit his grabs. With Gannon it's a little harder because he doesn't have the fastest or longest range moves. I really rely on pivot ftilts in the match up, since I can catch him on his approach for a grab

 

[Alter Requiem]

Here it is, sorry for the delay.
https://youtu.be/2lO-kya2ves

 

[Super_Smasher6]

The top tier i hate and fear the most is rosalina, she is a nightmare to fight as ganondorf because of that living shield, her aerials has priority over ANYTHING (dont you dare try to trade against her up air...) and she can gimp you reaaaaaly easily...

Sheik can camp you forever with the needles and force you to approach, then punish you for whatever you do because of her speed and combo you like crazy and can also gimp you really easily but i prefer to fight sheik rather than rosalina...

ZSS is not that much of a problem as the above 2, you can really punish her badly if she mess up and use a laggy move at the wrong time and with good timing you can also punish her down B even in the air!

 

[adom4]

The top tier i hate and fear the most is rosalina, she is a nightmare to fight as ganondorf because of that living shield, her aerials has priority over ANYTHING (dont you dare try to trade against her up air...) and she can gimp you reaaaaaly easily...

Sheik can camp you forever with the needles and force you to approach, then punish you for whatever you do because of her speed and combo you like crazy and can also gimp you really easily but i prefer to fight sheik rather than rosalina...

ZSS is not that much of a problem as the above 2, you can really punish her badly if she mess up and use a laggy move at the wrong time and with good timing you can also punish her down B even in the air!

Rosalina's rough but i believe the matchup isn't as bad as people think.
Just remember to take every chance you get to hurt Luma, if you think you can get a hit on Luma, do it.
Take advantage of her recovery, there is zero risk going out against her up-B as it has no hitbox, it's hard to catch but again there's no risk doing so.
The biggest problems in this matchup are her gimps & her U-air juggles, for the gimps just mix up your recovery & for the U-air juggles it's very hard so you have to time air dodges perfectly.
Try to take her to battlefield at all costs, it's a great stage for Ganon against her & it's small enough so she can't camp you too hard.

 

[Alter Requiem]

Rosalina's rough but i believe the matchup isn't as bad as people think.
Just remember to take every chance you get to hurt Luma, if you think you can get a hit on Luma, do it.
Take advantage of her recovery, there is zero risk going out against her up-B as it has no hitbox, it's hard to catch but again there's no risk doing so.
The biggest problems in this matchup are her gimps & her U-air juggles, for the gimps just mix up your recovery & for the U-air juggles it's very hard so you have to time air dodges perfectly.
Try to take her to battlefield at all costs, it's a great stage for Ganon against her & it's small enough so she can't camp you too hard.

I did MILES better against the rosalina than i did against the luigi. went to 3 games on each one, but luigi dominated the game with his million aerials in a row.

and thats why i lost, because of a banned battlefield. won game 2 on delfino, and i think game 3 was lost on smashville or lylat.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Rosalina also has that infuriating fair that literally caries Dorf off towards the blast line. That's usually what gets me.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Dude, Ganon is already god tier, this post is useless.

Kappa.

First of all, amazing match against Nintendude. You make the Sm4sh Ganon community proud.
And talking about the thread, the MU against top tier... I've actually not really played a lot against those, but I don't know why, I really can't deal with Ness, Mii Brawler and Rosalina, specially Rosalina. I can't handle with Luma, too annoying.

I don't have problems against Sheiks (and I've played against the 2nd best Sheik of Spain with Ganondorf, and didn't have that much problem)

 

[Sykkamorre]

Pikachu is our worst MU in my opinion. One of the few characters that is better at edgeguarding than us.

 

[Alter Requiem]

Dude, Ganon is already god tier, this post is useless.

Kappa.

First of all, amazing match against Nintendude. You make the Sm4sh Ganon community proud.
And talking about the thread, the MU against top tier... I've actually not really played a lot against those, but I don't know why, I really can't deal with Ness, Mii Brawler and Rosalina, specially Rosalina. I can't handle with Luma, too annoying.

I don't have problems against Sheiks (and I've played against the 2nd best Sheik of Spain with Ganondorf, and didn't have that much problem)

I struggle with ness too. Dont know why either. Something about his backthrow i suppose

 

[adom4]

I struggle with ness too. Dont know why either. Something about his backthrow i suppose

Ness isn't that bad, if it wasn't for PK thunder i would even say Ganon would beat him.
Try to abuse your superior range against him and be aggressive when edgeguarding, that's our biggest edge over ness.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

They're two really rough MUs, and honestly I don't share @ adom4 's optimism about Rosalina. His advise was relevant still, but if she camps and plays super safe, it's hard to get anywhere close to her even when she loses luma.

I hate to say it, but if I have to play a Rosa, I play my secondary. Don't let that discourage you, though. Adom is probably better than I am, haha.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Luigi is a fairly easy mu for me. Ganon has long reach with his ftilt and dtilt and can outzone alot of luigis stuff. Fireball you can wizard dropkick over, uair and nair are good moves to use after getting caught up in an aireal combo. After watching your video you should be throwing out more bair's instead of fair's as bair's are faster, and safer since you can auto cancel them.

 

[Alter Requiem]

Luigi is a fairly easy mu for me. Ganon has long reach with his ftilt and dtilt and can outzone alot of luigis stuff. Fireball you can wizard dropkick over, uair and nair are good moves to use after getting caught up in an aireal combo. After watching your video you should be throwing out more bair's instead of fair's as bair's are faster, and safer since you can auto cancel them.

Yeah i normally do i was pretty flustered playing against nintendude.

 

[Opana]

I feel like Pikachu is our worst MU,, QA seems too difficult for us to punish because of a combination of our OoS options being poor and our inability to light punish in general. QA from the ledge, from my experience at the least, essentially gives them a a ledge option we'll rarely be able to punish with our without a read. They have all the issues of Sheik plus a fantastic ledge option and a small hurt box.

Also, I agree with adom on Ness, I have a lot of Ness exp and it's fairly even aside from that PKT imo.

 

[verbatim]

I personally think that Pikachu and Rosa are WAY worse than Sheik, luckily no one plays them.

From my experience with and understanding of top tiers

• Pikachu and Rosa will just about always win unless they catch a random fsmash at 60. Only fight with Ganon if you are a solo main. I've heard that Flame Chain makes the Rosalina matchup doable, but don't have experience. Always edgeguard Rosalina, don't challenge Pikachu unless it's a hard read.
• Fighting Sheik sucks, but it's been my experience that few Sheik's like to needle camp. If they overcommit they can be punished easily, but edgeguarding them is extremely hard and you can literally get Fair'd off the screen. I think that Sheik would be worse than Rosa if they went for timeouts, but most Sheik's aren't that passive. If you have a secondary use them instead.
• ZSS is surprisingly doable. Because of his weight Ganon dies to Boost Kick much later than most ZSS's expect. If you are on point with your powershields and the attack/shield/grab game this is possible.
• Luigi is also surprisingly doable. Due to his low traction, lots of your options won't give him a shield grab (Fair, Dtilt, Ftilt). I don't really go for it much because I'm bad with the spacing, but it's hilarious when Dair on shield sends Luigi skidding to the other side of the map. Easy edgeguards.
• I've only really fought one Mii Brawler, but it was my experience that once I got past the optimal kill % for his up b, rage played a huge role in my favor, and he couldn't really capitalize it with his poor smash attacks. This is probably a bad matchup, but not Sheik bad or worse.
• My brother plays Ness so I'm kind of biased, but I think that it isn't horrible for Ganon. Default Wizard Foot jumps over PK Fire while it's moving. Uair, Wizard Foot, and Dair gimp PKT2, but you die if you miss the punish. It's worth noting that if you miss your punish and end up too far below to recover, you can still grab Ness with Dark Dive if he's still moving the thunderbolt around, and get back to the stage that way.
• Projectile Camping: It might be because I know a lot more about the top tier characters, but I'm much more comfortable playing Ganon against Sheik than say, Duck Hunt Dog (I think the can is a guranteed edgeguard on no custom Ganon without a jump, but Dark Fists would probably power through it).

 

[adom4]

I personally think that Pikachu and Rosa are WAY worse than Sheik, luckily no one plays them.

From my experience with and understanding of top tiers

• Pikachu and Rosa will just about always win unless they catch a random fsmash at 60. Only fight with Ganon if you are a solo main. I've heard that Flame Chain makes the Rosalina matchup doable, but don't have experience. Always edgeguard Rosalina, don't challenge Pikachu unless it's a hard read.
• Fighting Sheik sucks, but it's been my experience that few Sheik's like to needle camp. If they overcommit they can be punished easily, but edgeguarding them is extremely hard and you can literally get Fair'd off the screen. I think that Sheik would be worse than Rosa if they went for timeouts, but most Sheik's aren't that passive. If you have a secondary use them instead.
• ZSS is surprisingly doable. Because of his weight Ganon dies to Boost Kick much later than most ZSS's expect. If you are on point with your powershields and the attack/shield/grab game this is possible.
• Luigi is also surprisingly doable. Due to his low traction, lots of your options won't give him a shield grab (Fair, Dtilt, Ftilt). I don't really go for it much because I'm bad with the spacing, but it's hilarious when Dair on shield sends Luigi skidding to the other side of the map. Easy edgeguards.
• I've only really fought one Mii Brawler, but it was my experience that once I got past the optimal kill % for his up b, rage played a huge role in my favor, and he couldn't really capitalize it with his poor smash attacks. This is probably a bad matchup, but not Sheik bad or worse.
• My brother plays Ness so I'm kind of biased, but I think that it isn't horrible for Ganon. Default Wizard Foot jumps over PK Fire while it's moving. Uair, Wizard Foot, and Dair gimp PKT2, but you die if you miss the punish. It's worth noting that if you miss your punish and end up too far below to recover, you can still grab Ness with Dark Dive if he's still moving the thunderbolt around, and get back to the stage that way.
• Projectile Camping: It might be because I know a lot more about the top tier characters, but I'm much more comfortable playing Ganon against Sheik than say, Duck Hunt Dog (I think the can is a guranteed edgeguard on no custom Ganon without a jump, but Dark Fists would probably power through it).

Rosa isn't as hard as she seems IMO, her weight & juggling vulnerability makes this MU at least winnable for Ganondorf, it's still a hard one but i think the MU will get easier in time.
Also flame chain sucks, i prefer flame wave to have something that always threatens her shield.

 

[Shmeckie]

I agree, I think the disadvantage against Rosa gets overblown. Honestly, though the matchups aren't in Ganon's favor, Ganon doesn't really seem to struggle all that much against Top Tiers. Again, some folks seem to overstate these matchups. He's got the tools to win if you play smart and use the game mechanics to your advantage (if you haven't learned to Perfect Shield, you're playing a crippled Ganon). It also helps him that virtually all the top tiers are lightweights. Which means the opponent simply can't afford to make even a couple mistakes.

He's at a disadvantage to be sure, but I've never felt held back by my choice in character against any of them.

EDIT: For what it's worth, once or twice I've managed to deflect Rosa's Luma Shot with a well-timed shield, sending the Luma upward at a 90-degree angle. Trying replicate this consistently.

 

[Sykkamorre]

I'm quite happy to see people finally agreeing with my opinion on PIKACHU being the worst MU for us.

About friggin' time!

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm quite happy to see people finally agreeing with my opinion on PIKACHU being the worst MU for us.

About friggin' time!

Disagree. Pika's frustrating but is much easier to kill than Sheik due to being much more susceptible to Choke followups. Sheik you can never ever trap, while Pika's hard to trap but not impossible. You're not crazy for thinking that, as QA is a massive nuisance, but even the good Pikas I've faced never felt quite as stupid as Sheik. It's top 5 worst easily though.

 

[Xinc]

Thoughts:

Sheik: Ganondorf doesn't do as badly as you think in this matchup. He can stop Sheik's fair cold with neutral air or forward tilt. He does get juggled a bit, but if he survives past Sheik's early kill percents, it's a lot easier. His grab confirms many options. Overall the Sheik matchup does require a lot of reading and predicting though. Probably a small adv to Sheik

Rosalina: Hard. With customs off, Ganon has a harder time approaching Rosalina safely and can be gimped but for him, he needs to get in close and get several solid hits in. Also knocking off Luma is big. Probably a +2 adv to Rosa. Not unwinnable.

Ness: Down tilt clashes with PK fire and you suffer no lag. Many options out of choke. Good juggle game against Ness as well. It's probably even, or even in Ganon's favor.

Pikachu: I hate this matchup. Pikachu's mobility wins him many favors and it's just hard to get a single hit on the window of QC cancels. +2 adv to Pika. The key is to back Pika into a corner and make sure he has no room for janky movement.

ZSS: Ganon has very few safe landing options, so don't get grabbed. Ganon gets a lot of stuff in this matchup, but the difficulty is getting past the stun gun and down throw setups. Use it, abuse it. Neutral or +1 ZSS

Luigi: Don't be afraid to throw out moves. Get close to Luigi. His shield pushback is strong, so he won't be able to retaliate. Jab cancels out Fireball. True, he's got a great combo game, but you have a better time off-stage if you can knock him off. Tipman him if he's hugging the stage. Neutral

 

[Opana]

I've fought fantastic players of every top tier and I really feel Pikachu is the most difficult. The Pika I play very, very rarely misses a tech of any kind so I can't rely on choke much vs him similarly to Sheik.

EDIT: Wow wtf just typed up all this stuff and only that got posted lol. Maybe I'll retype it later idk, I am salted.

 

[TOGOpuff]

2 questions :
choke tech chase doesn't make pika/sheik easier ? (i have a really great time tech chasing with choke)
can't you dsmash pika's QA ? (ofc this is a hard read but i've been training the same thing on sonic spin dash and i'm starting to be sucessful)

(also hello everybody sorry i never posted here before)

 

[Sykkamorre]

Not really unfortunately.

Their neutral is just so good that we probably shouldn't be landing choke in the first place.

And I have never played a pika daft enough to repeatedly QA enough to allow such a hard read to happen.

 

[jmanup85]

Did we forget to include Villager here?

 

[TOGOpuff]

i don't think villager is a hard matchup. everytime he's offstage is a easy edge guard. slingshot is a pain because of our height but that doesn't do that much damage and we can trade slingshot with our jab (needs more testing), but villager projectiles trade with everything. Bowling ball the same thing, you can jab trade with his fsmash.
approaching him he'll always choose one of those options :
- if you jump too early (aerial approach) he'll lloyd / slingshot
- if you jump on the right time he'll shield nair / roll away. Mostly villagers roll away too soon because villager's roll isn't that great. so you can empty jump to pivot tilt and catch the roll.
ground approaches are countered by dtilt and slingshot (specially bair)

approach slow and take advantage of villager lag startups (lloyd/tree/smashes)
every hit on villager hurts too much specially because he has a really hard time killing unless he gets a hard read / easy punish.
Don't give him any of that and the matchup isn't that hard.

If possible abuse power shield and mixup how you'll react to lloyd/slingshot while approaching and it's not hard.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

I also think Villager is THAT hard. Perfect shield through the sling shots. Quick u airs hurt him. But I must say that it requires more skill for the Ganondorf to win this match. Even though, is 55/45 in Villager favor, imo.

 

[verbatim]

Ness: Down tilt clashes with PK fire and you suffer no lag. Many options out of choke. Good juggle game against Ness as well. It's probably even, or even in Ganon's favor.

My brother plays Ness so I have a lot of weird knowledge in this MU.

-You can also hop over the PK Fire and hit him with regular Wizard's Foot so long as you're not directly over the firebolt when it explodes at the end.

-Uair and dair beat PKT2, don't remember how my testing with bair/fair/nair/aerial wizkick spike went, but none of them are really optimal beyond maybe nair.

-Ness can glitch death Ganon. I'm kind of hesitant to talk about this since I can't find anything to suggest that anyone else knows about this, but insofar as we can tell Ness has a situational glitch kill which lets him warp Ganon and maybe other characters through certain stages and into freefall. Will post more when I know exactly why it works the way it does.

 

[Jyro]

Anyone have any good insight/tips on the sonic matchup? His run speed and spin dash are so fast that he can invade my space so easily. I seem to just throw out moves and hope I hit him, and hopefully I live as long as possible. Moves like wizard's foot sometimes beats spin dash and other times I get hit first. It doesn't help that Sonic can cancel spin dash into shield/grab. I'm usually always behind in percent too. Even when I win, I still don't feel confident in the matchup.

 

[Xinc]

My brother plays Ness so I have a lot of weird knowledge in this MU.

-You can also hop over the PK Fire and hit him with regular Wizard's Foot so long as you're not directly over the firebolt when it explodes at the end.

-Uair and dair beat PKT2, don't remember how my testing with bair/fair/nair/aerial wizkick spike went, but none of them are really optimal beyond maybe nair.

-Ness can glitch death Ganon. I'm kind of hesitant to talk about this since I can't find anything to suggest that anyone else knows about this, but insofar as we can tell Ness has a situational glitch kill which lets him warp Ganon and maybe other characters through certain stages and into freefall. Will post more when I know exactly why it works the way it does.

If you could provide a replay of this happening, we can analyze this and address this issue.

 

[verbatim]

I'm away from home so we can't replicate this, but the situation we kept seeing this in is as follows.


Ness grabs Ganon with Ness's back to the very edge of the left side of BF.

Ness dthrow while Ganon is at 70%+ (my brother said something about specific inputs but I don't think it matters ).

Ganon is teleported through the stage and helpless as though he was stage spiked.


I saw a vine floating around somewhere on the internet of a Ness doing it to a Bowser Jr in similar circumstances, but I don't know where it is at this time.