Ganon Match-ups and tier list

[Jeyfar]

Why is Ganon placed 10th in the tier list, if he has neutral or positive match-up except with only Sheik, Falco and Fox? Also the match-up chart places Ganon well below them. the only match-up I respect in which Ganon could get wrecked is with Sheik, but is it really that terrible?

Discuss away.

 

[Geenareeno]

Ganon loses to Puff, Marth, Peach, Falcon, and Doc (I think). The only character he actually beats aboce him is IC's, some of them are detectably even ,though.You can't build a tier list off of matchups. Ganon is in the correct position.

 

[Jeyfar]

Ganon loses to Puff, Marth, Peach, Falcon, and Doc (I think). The only character he actually beats aboce him is IC's, some of them are detectably even ,though.You can't build a tier list off of matchups. Ganon is in the correct position.

No, ganon beats Puff, Marth is neutral, and Falcon too, Doc is just 60/40 (dem Ganon ranges and priorities lol). Peach, eh, she's an *** to beat if played well, but correct mind gaming and learning to catch them turnips can make things go in your favor.

Anyway the Main reason for my thread was discussing about those 3 specific match-ups, and how they could be circumvented as more positive matches, excuse me not being more specific.

 

[spider_sense]

No, ganon beats Puff, Marth is neutral, and Falcon too, Doc is just 60/40 (dem Ganon ranges and priorities lol). Peach, eh, she's an *** to beat if played well, but correct mind gaming and learning to catch them turnips can make things go in your favor.

Anyway the Main reason for my thread was discussing about those 3 specific match-ups, and how they could be circumvented as more positive matches, excuse me not being more specific.

IMHO - Ganon/Peach 45-55, Ganon/Marth 45-55, Falco/Ganon 55-45, Fox/Ganon 60-40, Sheik/Ganon 0-100 (lol) Ganon/Puff 45-55

I think Ganon does solidly well against the higher class, he just doesn't dominate them, especially at higher levels of play.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

So would you suggest switching to Kirby in the sheik matchup?

Anyway, I haven't been playing a while, but from what I've seen Ganon's good, just not as good as the characters above him. I could see him moving above Doc, but other than that, the other characters are just better than him.

 

[Jeyfar]

So would you suggest switching to Kirby in the sheik matchup?

Anyway, I haven't been playing a while, but from what I've seen Ganon's good, just not as good as the characters above him. I could see him moving above Doc, but other than that, the other characters are just better than him.

Damn thing is I always see Ganon almost win against all top 6 chars, but he never capitalizes. My brother's Ganon is really strange though, he doesn't wave dash, he just L-cancels, but he beats the crap out of the best here, even those that went to one of the EVO's. He has this crazy mind game style that beats a lot of characters (except Shiek, he said Shiek is an impossibility with Ganon and you're better off trying with Pichu). That's why I question the Tier lists a bit

 

[RaphaelRobo]

From what I've seen, Ganon's at a disadvantage to everyone except ICs. Not a huge disadvantage, but a disadvantage. And the Sheik matchup's really bad for him. It's definitely winnable, though. You just have to put a lot of work into it.

 

[-ACE-]

0. Top Level Fox
1. Sheik
2. Fox
3. Falco
4. Jiggs
5. Falcon
6. Peach
7. Marth

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i pretty much agree with that list.

i'd prolly switch marth and falcon.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I'd move Marth above Jiggs, and everyone below her down one. That's probably only because I have absolutely no Marth experience, though.

 

[-ACE-]

5-7 are close... jiggs is tough raph...

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I agree, I just have more experience with Jiggs than I do with Marth. If I had equal experience with both, I'd probably leave your list how it is.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

granted, any experience you have in most matchups is a little meh.

i don't consider myself having any/much experience vs jiggs. i might have played some seriouslies vs mahone at some point in the past, but not much.

actually ace, was that list supposed to be a tier list directly, or a ganon matchup tier list (from worst, to not as bad). if it's a ganon mu list, then i'd agree exactly as you have it.

edit: only things i consider myself having exp vs is falco, fox, falcon, some peach, sorta marth, and sorta ICs. friggin NC...

 

[RaphaelRobo]

It was meant to be a Ganon MU list.

I agree about my experience. The thing is, I actually kind of know how a Jigglypuff player behaves, whereas I have absolutely no clue how a Marth player behaves, or how his moves work. Other than, you know, Fsmash being insane.

Chris, isn't that all we have in NC? Unless you count PP's Kirby, in which case you have a lot of experience in that matchup.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

-_-

and yeah, that's my point raphael lol. we also have ganons other than myself, but i cannot honestly say that i have (in recent applicable history) sat down and played jim with the intention of learning the matchup. we simply try to style on each other, and gain some respect/understanding through our play.

 

[Jockmaster]

The Marth matchup is definitely even. I play against a damn good Marth main most of the time, and while Ganon has a hard time with sword's range and disjointedness (like everyone else), his punish game is huge and Marth is one character notorious for getting punished hard. Knock Marth in the air and you can easily just systematically pwn him off the map.

The Sheik matchup is of course impossible. Gotta learn another main to take care of that one (I use Peach). I lose consistently to a Sheik main who is a lot worse than me at the game, simply because Ganon's lard *** turns in to a combo bag after a simple dash attack.

Don't know too much about top tier spacies, but from my experience Ganon does seem to have a little trouble with the speed of Fox and the laser pressure of Falco...enough so to render his chances of winning significantly low.

Jiggs is a big floating punching bag, just throw haymakers the little prick. Unless you're playing against Hbox or Mang0 who can Rest you easily, Jiggs is at worst an even matchup.

Captain Falcon is in Ganon's favor. Ganon can take the hits and recover twice as well. Get one good hit, Falcon goes off the stage, initiate easymode edgeguard.

Don't know anything about Doc, ICs, or Peach from my own experience.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

athens....

is your good marth sai?

if so, go to the tournament in late april. i'll give you a paradigm shift about how both ganon and ganon vs marth can work. even though it is even, i don't think it's even for the reasons you think it's even lol.

and also, i guess nobody's really shown you how rough falcon can combo, and how much good DI can change his recovery to something that isn't quite easy mode.

 

[Jeyfar]

Jiggly is at disadvantage against Ganon, I've seen Jigglies lose far more against Ganon than vice versa. I'd say Marth is an even match-up given that you know how to follow up your grabs against him, know how to control your jumping and above all reading him. Fox, Falco, Shiek = ewww pretty tough. Falcon is 50/50 in my book as well to to having low priorities, Ganon owns him, but then again you really need experience and really need to know how to deal with him. Peach as long as you control her turnips by grabbing them mid-air and approach her aerials carefully it's winnable as well.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

-_-

just because theres only a small handful of good jiggs' out there does not make it a bad matchup. please don't base how good you think a matchup is by how often people win it. if they can't make bracket at a national, then they're definitely not worth basing a matchup on. therefore, if you ARE going to base a matchup off of jiggs v ganon, you should either be looking at the hbox vs kage things, or the hbox vs linguini things.

and if you were to watch those sets, hbox usually comes out on top. whether it's the matchup or player ability is up for discussion in these cases, but i'm more inclined to say it's even at worst for jiggs. it's much harder for us to actually kill a jiggs with good DI, because they're rarely dumb enough to let us hit them with another move on their way back. their bair is just as good as ours, so in the matchup we just end up trying to control the same space. we like grabs, but they can get crouch->utilt->rested or even crouch-rested if we're not careful. luckily, we have a actual hard punish on missed rests, so they can't fish for them too often.

idk, maybe i'm just taking you guys too seriously. but jiggs is not a matchup where you can just hit her and she dies. if done correctly, it's probably the longest matchup to play out, possibly in the game (except jiggs v ylink )

 

[Jockmaster]

Nahh I've never played against Sai. And what tournament are you referring to (link maybe)?

In terms of Falcon, he's for all intensive purposes my main and I'll be the first to say his recovery is a walk in the park for any half decent player, even easier so for an edgeguard specialist like Ganon. It essentially boils down to either bair or fair (maybe even uair) if he's above the ledge, or dair/down-b if he's below the edge. Minimal timing required and the Falcon Dive hitbox is pitiful. Not to mention his Falcon Kick recovery is only useful in the top corners of the map because he falls so damn fast.

In regards to Jiggs, I base my view of the matchup on strictly the strengths and weaknesses of the character, not how much one person pwns with them (eg. Hbox). If we did that, Mario's tier listings and MUs would be much higher based on Mang0's Mario and Pikachu's much higher based on Axe's Pikachu. All things being constant, what can Jiggs actually do to Ganon? Yeah she has quick little aerials, but Ganon is one of the few characters who can punish the living **** out of Jiggs. All of his aerials outrange, and he has no trouble taking a few bairs. Basically Ganon just keeps pounding Jiggs in to submission...the only thing Jiggs can do in return is use Ganon's huge hurtbox to Rest, but that's easier said than done.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

http://www.facebook.com/events/366300680057045/

if it's not sai, then who? the only pretty good marth in GA i know is BBQ, and i'm pretty sure he's not particularly close to athens...

yeah, that's all it takes to kill falcon, but it takes a lot of them once they have good DI. and with that good DI, they're able to get their jump back with the falcon kick, which makes their aerial mobility all the stronger. of course, if they're off stage, they "should" die, but just like ganon does, falcon has a lot of tricks to mess with your timing to make sure you don't quite get that last hit.

ganons fair might outrange jiggs, but it's so slow that if you're trying to space fairs, you will probably get bair'd during the lag, unless youre just plain out of range. i'm pretty sure the bair vs bair range is about the same, and really, i'm pretty sure jiggs can bair combo ganon a lot better than ganon can...anything (maybe uairs...?) combo jiggs.

i mean, if you think it's in ganon's favor, more power to you.

 

[Jockmaster]

http://www.facebook.com/events/366300680057045/

if it's not sai, then who? the only pretty good marth in GA i know is BBQ, and i'm pretty sure he's not particularly close to athens...

yeah, that's all it takes to kill falcon, but it takes a lot of them once they have good DI. and with that good DI, they're able to get their jump back with the falcon kick, which makes their aerial mobility all the stronger. of course, if they're off stage, they "should" die, but just like ganon does, falcon has a lot of tricks to mess with your timing to make sure you don't quite get that last hit.

ganons fair might outrange jiggs, but it's so slow that if you're trying to space fairs, you will probably get bair'd during the lag, unless youre just plain out of range. i'm pretty sure the bair vs bair range is about the same, and really, i'm pretty sure jiggs can bair combo ganon a lot better than ganon can...anything (maybe uairs...?) combo jiggs.

i mean, if you think it's in ganon's favor, more power to you.

I'll definitely look in to showing up to that.

The Marth I play against is pretty much unknown, he's one of those guys who plays a ton of smash casually and is real good but never feels like going to tournaments -_-

I see what you're saying with Jiggs, I guess a lot of my argument comes from the fact that I've never played any extremely good Jigglypuff players

 

[-ACE-]

Jiggly is at disadvantage against Ganon, I've seen Jigglies lose far more against Ganon than vice versa. I'd say Marth is an even match-up given that you know how to follow up your grabs against him, know how to control your jumping and above all reading him. Fox, Falco, Shiek = ewww pretty tough. Falcon is 50/50 in my book as well to to having low priorities, Ganon owns him, but then again you really need experience and really need to know how to deal with him. Peach as long as you control her turnips by grabbing them mid-air and approach her aerials carefully it's winnable as well.

Welcome to the G Boards.

Jockmaster I don't know what puff mains you've been playing with but it gets GAY. super gayyyyyyyy. if you make a mistake as ganon at med% you're pretty much F'd. puff's back air is really quick and disjointed aka broken and his aerial mobility is absolutely insane for baiting and punishing, ganon has to read a jump, approach, roll, etc. just to land an aerial. Fair has to be used with UTMOST CAUTION in that matchup, unless you want to lose an exchange and get aerial'd 33 times off the stage. don't want to go offstage? DI in and get rest combo'd. ganon's uair and bair work a lot better. if puff baits that slow fair once you're in trouble. always go for guaranteed damage out of a grab (uairs/bairs), since a lot of stocks KO's on puff end up being you repeatedly hitting her until she doesn't come back lol.

I lost 2-1 to idea at pound 5... pretty good jiggs. hbox is insane.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I was watching a Canadian stream the other day and saw Idea land 4 rests on Weon-X in the first 30 seconds of Game 1. It was epic.

 

[Construct]

That was an awesome stream.

 

[Vionce]

my guess is that ganon's placement has more to do with character spread. What are the most common characters in a tourney? If the most common character in any tournament is shiek, then it makes sense that he would be lower on the tier list. Remember, a tier list is a ranking of how a character will do in a competitive setting ie tournaments. So if there are a lot of shieks, then you can expect ganon to not do very well despite having neutral/+ matchups against most of the cast.

 

[Divinokage]

Hbox simply outskills us but Jiggs is definitely easier than Falcon and I'd say even Peach. If you play it correctly enough, you shouldn't get rested at all.. all you need to do is develop sufficient defensive capabilities. You can do a lot to prevent Jigg's stuff, like CC traps or just simply move around to space aerials or grounded moves.. though you better do your best to not go off-stage. =P

Fox/Ganon 6-4
Falco/Ganon 6-4
Sheik/Ganon 65-35
Falcon/Ganon 55-45 (I don't think it's as hard as spacies, with SDI, CC you can avoid lots of Falcon's setups)
Peach/Ganon 55-45 (Her priority/zoning can be a pain to deal with)
Marth/Ganon 55-45
Jiggs/Ganon 55-45
ICs/Ganon 4-6
Doc/Ganon 5-5

 

[Jeyfar]

Welcome to the G Boards.

Thanks Ace

Hbox simply outskills us but Jiggs is definitely easier than Falcon and I'd say even Peach. If you play it correctly enough, you shouldn't get rested at all.. all you need to do is develop sufficient defensive capabilities. You can do a lot to prevent Jigg's stuff, like CC traps or just simply move around to space aerials or grounded moves.. though you better do your best to not go off-stage. =P

Fox/Ganon 6-4
Falco/Ganon 6-4
Sheik/Ganon 65-35
Falcon/Ganon 55-45 (I don't think it's as hard as spacies, with SDI, CC you can avoid lots of Falcon's setups)
Peach/Ganon 55-45 (Her priority/zoning can be a pain to deal with)
Marth/Ganon 55-45
Jiggs/Ganon 55-45
ICs/Ganon 4-6
Doc/Ganon 5-5

LOL jigglys bair, have you guys seen that ****? It's unbelievably huge. Anyway yeah perhaps I've been putting jigglys too much below Ganon, but I still think it's a neutral or very slightly in Ganon's favor match-up. The thing is I don't see many ganons using bair against Jiggly and in my opinion is a huge cockblocker for Jiggly.

Also Kage, don't you think Sheik is a 70/30 ?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

kages numbers are right.

but yo kage, how do you actually feel about the doc matchup? i feel like the pill trajectory is oddly annoying. i feel like we can keep him out pretty well, but i feel like it's one of the weird matchups that's rarely played but can be really frustrating.

kinda like how...everyone else must view ganons lol.

 

[Juushichi]

I think it's one of the most fun MU's in the game.

I think it's somewhere in the Doc boards that says... literally anything any everything that either character can do to the other works for each of them. That's why it's fun... apparently.

 

[Divinokage]

Perhaps its trajectory is a little odd but the projectile itself is really slow, so it gives you ample time to either avoid it or hit it away, it shouldn't be that much of a problem even in edgeguarding. It's harder for Doc to enter Ganon's zone inside than the other way around imo but he still has great combos on Ganon of course. Ganon's combos on Doc are relatively low though his huge range makes up for it, the simple throw to aerial works on him good.

Jeyfar, it isn't that simple, you can't just spam bairs and hope it hits or something like that. Every time you want to throw out something, it better hit the target or it must have a purpose before hand because Ganon is slow. If you whiff an aerial that just gives Jiggs room to get in which is what you don't want, you have to mix it up with everything you can think of because Jiggs can approach from very awkward angles. Of course a spaced bair will beat Jigg's approaching bair but they won't just do that. Sometimes you'll just have to take a hit and CC-Grab, sometimes you'll just have to high angled F-tilt or low angled f-tilt to stuff approaches from those angles, sometimes you'll just need to jab her away. I'm sorry I suck at explaining but you definitely have to pick your moves correctly depending on how Jiggs decides to approach you.. if you miss once then you are in a dangerous position already.. then you have to rely right away on your DI to escape getting rested lol.

As for Ganon/Sheik, I don't think it's entirely hopeless.. I think i'm generally on point with this match-up. You just really have to use your range to the maximum and keep safe spacing because Sheik usually can just out-prioritize you and grab own you a lot more often than you can. Usually, you just need to be really really good at baiting her options to counter-attack her. For example, if she's shielding then usually she can either WD OOS or jump.. knowing that you can already prepare yourself to hit her with a uair before she hits you. So basically, if you really want to damage Sheik.. try to catch her doing something you want her to do and then you can maybe setup a Dair to grab or just try to knock her down and techchase grab or aerial if you can't grab. You generally have to rely on your quickest moves usually though.. hehe. =P

But ya seriously, Peach, Marth, Falcon and Jiggs all feel relatively the same difficulty which is nice.. it's not THAT hard but you need to play just a bit better than them.

 

[Bing]

Why would you just throw out bairs? Yeah its one of your safer options but unless your a Fox being a nairoplane, throwing out random crap generally doesnt work... Especially being a slower character...

 

[Divinokage]

Why would you just throw out bairs? Yeah its one of your safer options but unless your a Fox being a nairoplane, throwing out random crap generally doesnt work... Especially being a slower character...

You definitely can't throw random **** even bair on shield is like -3 I think.. so if it isn't fully spaced you can get shined before your lag ends.. though if it's spaced I don't think anyone can really retaliate to that.. though that's why you have to at least hit your target in shield and then you can try another counter-attack based on their habits OOS. If you miss then that gives your opponent better positioning.. I mean generally they know how to take advantage of that.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I feel like the Sheik matchup is tough, but when played correctly it's the numbers Kage gave. You just have to play differently than you do in other matchups, so it feels like it's worse than it actually is. I've only played Sheik a few times, but that's the impression I've gotten.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya I feel like it's one of the match-up you REALLY have to know inside-out because if not I think Sheik completely owns Ganon otherwise. I mean like at low level Sheik owns Ganon probably.

 

[Jeyfar]

Jeyfar, it isn't that simple, you can't just spam bairs and hope it hits or something like that. Every time you want to throw out something, it better hit the target or it must have a purpose before hand because Ganon is slow. If you whiff an aerial that just gives Jiggs room to get in which is what you don't want, you have to mix it up with everything you can think of because Jiggs can approach from very awkward angles. Of course a spaced bair will beat Jigg's approaching bair but they won't just do that. Sometimes you'll just have to take a hit and CC-Grab, sometimes you'll just have to high angled F-tilt or low angled f-tilt to stuff approaches from those angles, sometimes you'll just need to jab her away. I'm sorry I suck at explaining but you definitely have to pick your moves correctly depending on how Jiggs decides to approach you.. if you miss once then you are in a dangerous position already.. then you have to rely right away on your DI to escape getting rested lol.

As for Ganon/Sheik, I don't think it's entirely hopeless.. I think i'm generally on point with this match-up. You just really have to use your range to the maximum and keep safe spacing because Sheik usually can just out-prioritize you and grab own you a lot more often than you can. Usually, you just need to be really really good at baiting her options to counter-attack her. For example, if she's shielding then usually she can either WD OOS or jump.. knowing that you can already prepare yourself to hit her with a uair before she hits you. So basically, if you really want to damage Sheik.. try to catch her doing something you want her to do and then you can maybe setup a Dair to grab or just try to knock her down and techchase grab or aerial if you can't grab. You generally have to rely on your quickest moves usually though.. hehe. =P

Oh I think you misunderstood me a bit :/ of course I'm not saying we should not just spam bair what I'm trying to say it's the best spacing and offensive I would say against an annoying jigglypuff :< Goddamn pink ball. I understand that sppaming wouldn't work, anything that's spammed in Smash is utterly destoyed :<


And the Shiek thing, well I'm just a freak for even numbers lol, I actually agreed with your number lol