Ganon Buffs for the next and possible patch (9/30)

[Showyoucan]

I actually don't know what buffs/nerfs (added nerfs for those who hate Ganon Kappa) Ganon should receive. He seems pretty alright from where I see it. I like how he plays but in the "Tier List POV" people say he's
"top of the low tiers" or "bottom of the mid tiers". Buffs would be nice and such for Ganon .
Actually now you think about it, I would like the 1st Down Smash to connect properly when hitting the farthest hitbox, it doesn't go far enough for the 2nd hit to hit. (Love the Down Smash Knockback buff BTW )


TL;DR: So Ganon players, what Ganon buffs would you guys like for the next Mario Maker Stage patch on 9/30?

 

[Vermanubis]

To be honest, if wizkick killed a little earlier and jab were a bit quicker, I'd be happy. Maybe some extra knockback on dark dive. That'd give him a really tremendous OoS option.

 

[BlackCore8]

I would like to his jab come out faster and have a better grab range. If they can also improve his wizard foot to beat other projectiles out, like samus's missile, that would be great.

 

[Theosmeo]

If I were to be unrealistic I´d say f-tilt trips people who shield(like twilight princess), Dair cancelable into footstool, B-up launches people forward at semispike angle and ganon straight up (or both straight up so you can b up people to the top and up air to kill them), more sweet-spot range on b up, double tap down b to use wizdropkick, aerudo gets confirmed followups, super armor if you walk(not jog), and b-down is an untechable(so it´s safe to use in the air on grounded foes)

But actually more grab range(so you can grab pika), better grab rewards(back throw=kill throw, d throw combos), less lag on nair, and more damage and grab range on b up

 

[Showyoucan]

To be honest, if wizkick killed a little earlier and jab were a bit quicker, I'd be happy. Maybe some extra knockback on dark dive. That'd give him a really tremendous OoS option.

I can agree on Dark Dive killing earlier, wished it was like Melee's Up B that killed earlier instead of Falcons.
Faster Jab seems cool, probably the fastest move out of all his other ground moves so making it faster =
Wizard Kick gives a horizontal knockback does it? Even though I play Ganon, I'm a little iffy about killing earlier cause you can cancel the endlag of Wizard Kick which can make it safe.

 

[Theosmeo]

Maybe some extra knockback on dark dive.

That´d be amazing, it´s such a shame that is looks so scary yet does less damage the most of his aerials. also OOS is always helpful, Dark fists did this right

 

[Showyoucan]

I would like to his jab come out faster and have a better grab range. If they can also improve his wizard foot to beat other projectiles out, like samus's missile, that would be great.

Ya definitely, I also would like the Wizard Kick to beat weak projectiles like fireballs and such.

 

[Showyoucan]

But actually more grab range(so you can grab pika), better grab rewards(back throw=kill throw, d throw combos), less lag on nair, and more damage and grab range on b up

Better grab range on all of his grabs would be beautiful
Can you explain on the down throw combos? I was thinking Low% grab combos are fine, but making it easier to land combos at mid-high%?

 

[Vermanubis]

I can agree on Dark Dive killing earlier, wished it was like Melee's Up B that killed earlier instead of Falcons.
Faster Jab seems cool, probably the fastest move out of all his other ground moves so making it faster =
Wizard Kick gives a horizontal knockback does it? Even though I play Ganon, I'm a little iffy about killing earlier cause you can cancel the endlag of Wizard Kick which can make it safe.

You can cancel it, but it's really situational when that would become useful. When I say kill a bit earlier though, I'm just talking such that Ganon can kill with it below 160. It'd still be as unsafe as it is though. More knockback would mean that it's safe on hit, too. Ideally, things shouldn't be unsafe on hit. Wizkick's payoff is just too low to justify how unsafe it is. Were it not so absolutely necessary as an entry tool for Ganon, I'd put it on DSmash level of bad.

That´d be amazing, it´s such a shame that is looks so scary yet does less damage the most of his aerials. also OOS is always helpful, Dark fists did this right

Yeah, with a bit more knockback on the grab, it'd be reasonable safe OoS, since you'd have time to land after you leap off.

 

[Theosmeo]

Better grab range on all of his grabs would be beautiful
Can you explain on the down throw combos? I was thinking Low% grab combos are fine, but making it easier to land combos at mid-high%?

Well the part of smash 4 I´m least used to are the grabs. I´ve only played Ganon since launch and the grabs just aren´t rewarding enough to be something I practice. If up B got buffed I´d like a confirmed down throw up B(because style) and Bside(for early ganoncide against inattentive opponents) at <50 but besides that I don´t really know, I think the throw sends people to far forward to be useful because ganon is a slow man

 

[Theosmeo]

I'd put it on DSmash level of bad.

Dsmash is still bad? I thought we liked now that it´s better than most side smashes, I at least net a lot of kills with it

 

[Showyoucan]

Well the part of smash 4 I´m least used to are the grabs. I´ve only played Ganon since launch and the grabs just aren´t rewarding enough to be something I practice. If up B got buffed I´d like a confirmed down throw up B(because style) and Bside(for early ganoncide against inattentive opponents) at <50 but besides that I don´t really know, I think the throw sends people to far forward to be useful because ganon is a slow man

Sadly, because of the 1 sec grab invincibility rule, Down Throw > Up B/Side B don't work cause both are command grabs.
What you say is true, having a good grab that can kill confirm, combo, or perform kill setups is important since shields in Smash 4 are very good.
Lightweight chars like G&W for example can get killed by the ledge by doing Down Throw > F-Air around 50-70%. Otherwise on the ledge, get them offstage and gimp/edgeguard them.
Thx for sharing your opinion BTW

 

[Theosmeo]

What you say is true, having a good grab that can kill confirm, combo, or perform kill setups is important since shields in Smash 4 are very good.

And so far this is my biggest problem with smash 4, all the good characters are fast or projectile focused and have good grab rewards. Perfect shielding definitely shouldn´t be buffer-able, but personally I think it shouldn´t be usable on non projectile moves, it´s just too good, and more shield stun would be great too

These are just my ramblings though

 

[MagiusNecros]

Swap SA on WP for full invincibility. None of that grab jank or early/late interrupt. We suffer enough cooldown after the attack finishes to get punished anyway.

For added flavor Aerudo can bury opponents and give us frame advantage.

This change ain't happening either. Ha ha.

If we have a poor grab range our throws need to be strong either in damage or in knockback. Or I feel as Ganon they leave much to be desired.

I do wish WDK spiked on start up in the air though. But they don't touch customs for the most part.

SA or shield cancelable Utilt would be nice.

Oh and reflect on jab.

And why is WF on ground so slow and if it is slow why doesn't it plow through shields and attacks. If it gets stopped by a lot of otherwise weak attacks we have a problem.

If aerial WF doesn't give a **** then neither should the ground version.

Totally not a wishlist.

--------------------------

Personally I think Dark Dive should be buffed. Knockback so bad it kills Kirby at 230% at the edge of a Omega Stage.

 

[jmanup85]

We really only need jab to be faster and wizkick to have transcendent priority or give it more damage. If they don't change grab range one thing I heard that would be awesome instead would be to decrease the endlag of the grab when you whiff.

 

[MagiusNecros]

We really only need jab to be faster and wizkick to have transcendent priority or give it more damage. If they don't change grab range one thing I heard that would be awesome instead would be to decrease the endlag of the grab when you whiff.

Would be nice instead of Ganon going "What I missed? What foolishness." Practically stares at his hand in disbelief.

I mean we aren't like a T-rex.

 

[Showyoucan]

Swap SA on WP for full invincibility. None of that grab jank or early/late interrupt. We suffer enough cooldown after the attack finishes to get punished anyway.

For added flavor Aerudo can bury opponents and give us frame advantage.

This change ain't happening either. Ha ha.

If we have a poor grab range our throws need to be strong either in damage or in knockback. Or I feel as Ganon they leave much to be desired.

I do wish WDK spiked on start up in the air though. But they don't touch customs for the most part.

SA or shield cancelable Utilt would be nice.

Oh and reflect on jab.

And why is WF on ground so slow and if it is slow why doesn't it plow through shields and attacks. If it gets stopped by a lot of otherwise weak attacks we have a problem.

If aerial WF doesn't give a **** then neither should the ground version.

Totally not a wishlist.

--------------------------

Personally I think Dark Dive should be buffed. Knockback so bad it kills Kirby at 230% at the edge of a Omega Stage.

Haha! I got a good laugh on this one. These things would be awesome as heck! I can see almost everyone here wants Dark Dive to be buffed

 

[Opana]

Maybe not all of these but possible buffs I'd like:

Fast Jab
Grab range increased
Faster air speed
Less end lag upon landing an Aerudo
Make Wizkick safe on hit at lower percentages on the later hit.
Dthrow to not be weight based, always able to act as fast as if they were a featherweight.
Remove landing lag from Dark Dive on successful grabs or when hit out of it.
Less landing lag on fair
Faster dash attack
Reduced end lag on whiffed grabs

Also unsure if this would work but an auto link nair would be pretty awesome lol.

 

[WwwWario]

-Jab should come out faster. Right now, there's almost no reason to use Jab instead of Ftilt
-Dark Dive needs a HUGE knockback/damage buff. It needes close to 300% to kill from the middle of FD now. He electroshock them before making them blow up. It shouldn't be Ganon's weakest move...
-Wizkick should be more safe on shield. Shouldn't slow down

Honestly, I'm mostly hoping for a Dark Dive buff. It's such an awesome-looking move Though, since it hasn't changed from Brawl to many-post-patched Smash 4, I'm not very hopeful...

 

[Abbey Street]

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ give AIR SPEED ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

And Dark Dive buffs to. I actually really like the semi-spike idea, although that will probably result in a slight grabbox nerf.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

If he actually does get any buffs, I hope they make jab have less startup and less cooldown, and make Forward Throw his kill throw, killing at 110% or 120% on the edge of the stage. That would give people a reason to not bum rush head first into Ganon and make it even scarier to throw unsafe moves.

 

[Zam053]

Just two: A faster Jab and a faster grab. His grab is not really that bad to use on defense, but its laggy end just screws us him when you fail a grab. Jab should be a keepaway tool, and coming faster is a good way to nullify his weakness against up-to-your-face characters when they get on close range.

Maybe giving WizKick priority on ground would be good too so Ganon can gain a approach tool, but I think it is a little too much...

 

[EtrianHero23]

I'd love to have the King of Evil have a larger grab range and a lower cooldown on Wizard's Foot and Jab. Seriously, his grab range is awful, and for the latter two, Wizard's Foot has you getting punished on hit, and Jab is incredibly laggy and gives no opportunity even if you hit with it.

Wizard's Foot should have much higher knockback, higher priority, and slightly less cooldown.
Jab should come out faster and have less cooldown.
Grab's range should increase.

That's all I would want. Plz Sakurai.

Edit: Oh, and have his Up Throw be a kill throw. Maybe somewhere around 140?

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm in emphatic agreement with giving him more reward off his throws. His grabs are far too difficult to land and far too unsafe to justify their piddly reward. This is why shieldcamping is such a problem for Ganon, especially in the presence of teching and no extra reward for Aerudo aside form damage: the most you have to worry about if you hold your shield is a grab, which as we all know, stops being terribly profitable for Ganon past 60%. FThrow killing off the edge at 120 would be amazing, and I think that's perfectly fair.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I would start off by reducing Jab's endlag by around 10 frames. This would make it much safer and might even lead into something at low %s without changing Flame Choke followups. I would also make Dark Dive's startup faster by around 2-3 frames and make it do 2% more so it's a viable OOS punish. I'd also make Wizkick do 1% more.

 

[verbatim]

To be honest, if wizkick killed a little earlier and jab were a bit quicker, I'd be happy. Maybe some extra knockback on dark dive. That'd give him a really tremendous OoS option.

On that note, it'd be really nice if we could b-reverse wizkick, it'd be such a good mixup kill option if it wasn't so incredibly telegraphed.

Also increased hitstun on dthrow (maybe a beneficial angle/scaling change?) and a faster jab or nair would be cool.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

I love Ganondorf as he is. But I'd really like to have less landing lag on fair.

Also give him sheik's recovery's and I'm k with it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I love Ganondorf as he is. But I'd really like to have less landing lag on fair.

Also give him sheik's recovery's and I'm k with it.

You love the craptastic Dark Dive. Cool.

 

[PRGN]

Speed +20: Which will give us not only a great general speed boost, but also increased jump height just enough to do a SH-Dair autocancel and a FH-DoubleBair, and affects aerial movement speed as well :D

Edit: And indeed a jab and an aerial attack that hits from the first few frames, would be very useful.
Next to that i'd love it if he gets the Ganon-only-exclusive;
hit-stun frames on Ganon reduced by 50%.
Please Mr.Sakurai, no more 0-to-Death combo's here.

These adjustments will make for a more pleasant Ganon experience,
and will make the game more enjoyable.

 

[Top Boss]

speed up jab
make SH bair have a better hitbox
aerudo should be better somehow
wizkick be transcendent
dark dive have grab armor, be stronger, etc
better grab range
up/f/b throw kill early

 

[Z1GMA]

I don't feel any changes in Ganon this time, sorry. Just my Gut Feeling.
Although I'd give anything for a faster Jab and less lag on Dthrow.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't feel any changes in Ganon this time, sorry. Just my Gut Feeling.
Although I'd give anything for a faster Jab and less lag on Dthrow.

My feeling is that we're getting a small buff that nobody expects and doesn't matter much. Sheik will also get a nerf that's not enough to dethrone her.

 

[_Magus_]

If I were to be unrealistic I´d say f-tilt trips people who shield(like twilight princess)

This would actually mitigate Ganondorf's problem of dealing with shields.

 

[Theosmeo]

This would actually mitigate Ganondorf's problem of dealing with shields.

Yeah, because I'm pretty sure d-tilt has confirmed followups on every character's trip. (Maybe dsmash too, but that's being hopeful)

Welp, the patch is tomorrow, so review your frame data and % and prepare to go to the evil laboratory so we can figure out what to do with the little buffs daddy sakurai gives us

 

[_Magus_]

I'm sticking by my usual wish list with increased grab range/faster jab. Also, having a frame advantage and zero techability on Aerudo would make it actually usable.

 

[Didier337]

Need:
-Better Grab range
-More hit stun on D-throw
-Faster Jab
-Less landing lag on N-air
-Fix characters falling out of D-smash if they're too close to Ganon in the first hit.

Want:
- A lot of knock back on U-throw, Ganon needs a kill throw. Honestly probably as strong as Ness's B-throw, you kinda deserve to die if a Ganon manages to grab you.
- Less landing lag on U-air
- A tiny bit more height in ganon's second jump
- Super armor on all his smash attacks and U-special
- Change D-special's properties to go through weak projectiles (No reason a Giant Foot powered by magic should be stopped by a wooden arrow or pebble)

 

[N8n8]

To make a character viable in the smash4 meta all you need to do is make people think twice against shielding versus a character.
- grab combos (dthrow- fair d-throw -nair dthrow- uair)
- more shield damage
- slightly faster moves to make them more safe on shield

 

[MrTacoKingSSBM]

- PM Jab
- PM Flame choke
- Super armour on reverse warlock punch

 

[verbatim]

Faster jab would be amazing but realistically I'm just looking for throw buffs. IMO fthrow should get a base knockback buff (not scaling) so that you can get people offstage more reliably with it and you can kill by powershielding getup attacks and punishing with a rage fthrow.

Alternatively seriously why doesn't up throw kill?

 

[Karsticles]

Faster Warlock Punch.
Better grab.
Side B untechable.
Wizard Kick negates projectiles.
Dair zero landing lag.
Up B changed to that armored custom version.
Dash attack super armor.