Game and Watch Matchup Export: Ice Climbers

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daniel7001
#1
Ice Climbers



Matchup: 20:80 (-3)

Basic Info:

Videos:
PantyRaider vs. Smoom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opkgf7SLB5A
Penta vs. Vinnie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv6VUruv0Sc
9B vs. rakyawo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPVZN7KUC6c

Strategy:
  • Don't get grabbed, play as safely as you can possibly do.
  • To be able to win, you have to space very well. You have to run away when there is no danger. When 1 grab means 1 stock, everything changes. UpB away if a move gets shielded.
  • Don't grab while nana is a alive, our throws are far too slow and we will end up taking more damage than we give.
  • We can destroy offstage. Dair their UpB recovery if they go low to hit Popo out of the UpB and leave Nana on the stage. If they squall hammer, either uair and punish the landing or just hit them back offstage and continue edgeguarding.

Stages:
Assuming the stagelist from Unity 2.1
Strikes
1. Final Destination
2. Smashville
3.
Runner-Up -


Counter Pick
1. Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar
2. Frigate Orpheon
Runner-Up - Delfino Plaza / Halberd


Ban
1. Final Destination
2.
Runner-Up -

 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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#3
You shouldn't play this MU. According to Vinnie this is pretty much a hopeless MU. I had a kinda close match against G&W in this MU last tourney, but it was like the first G&W I had ever played so it doesn't matter.
All of our strengths don't matter anymore, our techchasing game is game. We cannot grab ICs to separate them as our throws are among the slowest in the game, making it incredibly safe for ICies to shield.
Our upB isn't nearly as safe as Icies uair can challenge it, making it kinda risky.
Smashes are no longer safe. You have to get a hard read every time you attempt a smash unless they are separated or you risk dying. Bair will get ISSDI'd and you get grabbed which is bad. Fair is probably the best move against ICies in this MU, but not sure if it beats Blizzard.

If the opponent has no experience of this MU it would imo appear evenish, but don't rely on it.
Just my input. Sup.
 

Gardex

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#4
A thing you can do is bucket the blizzard and get a full bucket instantly. If timed right you should be able to up b away before getting grabbed, I think(Getting a full bucket doens't lag nearly as much as just absorbing once)
 

-LzR-

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#5
Yes, but it's kinda risky considering the bucket isn't very strong and most of the time the other Climber is free to do whatever he wants while the other one shoots the stuff.
 
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#7
All I know about this is uair trolls nana too well, but that is completely useless because popo can do whatever..

This mu is hard, I'll ask one of the Az IC users about it.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#8
Up Air is completely legit when they Squall back to the stage.

And Desynch Blizzard Wall is only good against characters that just have zero options against Blizzard. Its actually bad and pretty risky for ICs to use.

Bucket intelligently and use it when they're desynched. It doesn't need to be strong, its fast and its a good way to punish reckless deysnchs. Obviously misspacing Oil Panic and absorbing while Nana Blizzards means you'll lose your stock. Its not that hard to get a full bucket and dip with Up B.

Ice Blocks are far more dangerous in this MU because anyone well versed in the art of Desynch will frame trap your landings using Nana while popo is free to act.

I'll go more into detail later. If people want me to.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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#9
And Desynch Blizzard Wall is only good against characters that just have zero options against Blizzard. Its actually bad and pretty risky for ICs to use.
Please do confirm this statement. I have never heard anything like that before. It's not like I don't trust you, just want to hear something about this. If this is true, then the way I have played Icies has all been a lie D:
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#10
I'm dead serious.

Desynch Blizzard when Nana is the one using Blizzard is solid because it can give Popo a free grab if used correct.

Using the Bliizard Wall strat is only really effective against characters who have little to no options against Blizzard up front or against people who don't know how to punish it.

Its a mid level tactic at best. Sitting there performing a series of moves that have a rather large commitment over a long periof of time is never a good option. All someone has to do is punish Popo with something not incredibly laggy.

If they miss oh well Popo is still on cooldown. If they connect then ICs are separated because they were hit during a desynch. And you think they wanna grab with Nana? There's so much risk to that. She's magnetized to Popo so she can't run in at full speed like Popo and if she whiffs...she's free to get *****. And even if she gets a grab, Nana likes to buffer grabs before Popo gets to them. Happens fairly often. Any smart ICs player will set up with Nana and have Popo free to act.

Desynchs are a double edged sword and only add to the "Glass Cannon" analogy people pin on ICs. They can be good for getting the grab but overuse them and you are far more likely to get separated. Blizzard Wall shouldn't be considered a staple unless a character just gets ***** by it.

Beating ICs involves not just knowing when they desynch but HOW they're desynching, WHY and with WHICH IC.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#12
I know a lot about them firsthand through playing as them and playing against them soooo many time.

I only like to give full explanations if I'm sure I know what I'm talking about.

:denzel:
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#17
The only things that video demonstrates is that:

Up Airing a lone Nana is pointless unless its gonna set you up for something big. And thats really only when Popo isn't like right on your ***.

Dairing into the ground recklessly is asking to get *****. That's literally how he lost his last two stocks. And he didn't even mash out of those grabs and considering how the CGs were started, he could have broken out easily.

This is a better video of how the MU works imo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv6VUruv0Sc

At least here, you can see more of why the MU is actually bad instead of watching someone just bend over.

Also Platform Drop Out of Shield to Nair helps vs Up Air pokes when you're on a platform.
 

Dexident

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#19
Well obviously panties made some glaring errors and over-commitments but the fact that there is a character that can grab you from 0 - your next stock is just depressing.

I suck at avoiding grabs in general so it means that the IC MU will be basically impossible for me no matter what character I go.
 
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daniel7001
#20
The japanese video taught me a few things:

-UpB is legit in this matchup if you know how to safely land.
-Remember that Popo and Nana are slightly off in their shield timing, so bair isn't that horrible of a move if you space it well and get out quickly as well.
-UpB > Jump in this matchup

are any of these objected?
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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#21
What can we do against ICs uair?
You shouldn't challenge it. It's like the damn best uair in the game (damn you ZSS) and you can't do much. I am pretty sure you can with perfect spacing trade or something, but I wouldn't do it if I were you. Try not to get above ICs, they love it when someone is above them.
 

PentaSalia

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#24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv6VUruv0Sc

At least here, you can see more of why the MU is actually bad instead of watching someone just bend over.

Also Platform Drop Out of Shield to Nair helps vs Up Air pokes when you're on a platform.
Drop down nairs aren't safe most of the time. It's only a good option if you managed to separate them. Otherwise they can either do falling uair to beat it, utilt, or just simply wait for it for a free grab lol.

Also i wasn't really abusing the upb out of shield to prop up ICs, I did it like once only lol. I probably could have done a slightly better job if I had played the way I should have but it's still ICs, Vinnie's especially. I know it's a terrible mindset but the match up is that depressing lol. This match up isn't impossible but meh, probably a better idea to have a secondary for them.

Or even better, not main G&W at all :smash:
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#25
Makes sense about the Nair.

And yeah that MU is *** lmao. I think everyone just has those one or two MU, they just don't wanna do and if they do and it goes bad they just say **** it lol. Plus since its Vinnie's ICs...doesn't make it any better.
 
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daniel7001
#26
Because this matchup has to be played very differently than usual, lets do a "what works" and a "what fails" instead.

Things that work: UpB escaping
Things that don't work: dair, grabs

And what are good stages and bad stages?
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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#27
UpB is pretty much then only thing that really works in this MU. Even that is kinda bad when ICs can just uair you instead. Maybe a well spaced fair but that is so predictable and slow so yeah it's hopeless. If Brinstar or such stage is legal, take your win, but if not, get another character. ISSDI stuff wrecks us.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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#29
Lylat is actually pretty damn good for Icies from what I've heard. I wouldn't CP them there with any character. Unless there is something awesome about it.
 
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#30
Does the tilting of the stage make the chaingrab harder? I would think it does but I'm not sure.

I feel Lylat would be the lesser of two evils for this.

And what about PS1 for the stage transformation CG interruptions?
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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#32
Lylat doesn't make a difference when chaingrabbing. The platforms are really small so they can easily do that nair -> IB -> grab stuff there and the tilts make IBs a lot more dangerous too. ICs also have a tether recovery so tilting doesn't make a difference for them. It's a good stage for them IMO.
 
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#37
Run away, run away, then run away some more. Pretend you are a Wario main. Before you decide to play the G&W vs ICs MU, you must ask yourself: are you prepared to run away even in the face of no danger?

One strat I like is kill Nana, time out Popo.
The only approach I know is backair, if they shield it just UpB away, if they don't proceed to combo.
 
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