Game and Watch 3.0 changes

[666blaziken]

I can't believe nobody thought of posting this yet. But I am curious about why game & watch's B move was nerfed? I mean, even though I never play any game and watch players, but I am wondering why the super food was removed? Not angry or mad, just curious. It made pm game and watch more unique compared to the other smash entries. Please let me know.
-666blaziken

 

[Dng3]

Noticed this in the patch notes as well. I am saddened.

 

[Lostimos]

It was more RNG added onto an already RNG heavy character. It is sad to see it removed but removing it just makes him less random which makes sense.

 

[Juushichi]

The landing lag change was more or less indirectly a nerf because of system changes. ~4 Frames of Land lag (heavy land lag) keeps it in line to Fox and Falco's lasers and their landing lag.

Super Food's (in this version) random trigger behavior was a bit of a bane for people to play and to play against, so we opted to remove it this time around. I think the general consensus is that it could be put back in (and it's something that I kinda agree with), but in my opinion, only if you could purposely trigger it.

 

[666blaziken]

Ah, I understand. I have a suggestion, how about after he tosses out 6 regular bacon strips, the 7th one will be a the most powerful meat in 2.6 (I kind of forget which one it is, lol).

 

[Jolteon]

It was removed because it's additional RNG on an already RNG-heavy character, and it has a really high reward to boot.

As Juushichi mentioned, it is possible that Super Food may return later, but don't expect RNG-food to return.

 

[Mr.Random]

It was removed because it's additional RNG on an already RNG-heavy character, and it has a really high reward to boot.

As Juushichi mentioned, it is possible that Super Food may return later, but don't expect RNG-food to return.

I personally hope it doesn't return. I hate random factor moves. It gets me mad, though your avatar makes it really hard to get mad <3.

 

[Jolteon]

I personally hope it doesn't return. I hate random factor moves. It gets me mad, though your avatar makes it really hard to get mad <3.

As stated, if it were to return, it wouldn't be using RNG.

And thanks! <3

 

[Mr.Random]

As stated, if it were to return, it wouldn't be using RNG.

And thanks! <3

What if... you can charge it? Like GnW would have to actually cook for like 3 seconds and then he gets super food?

 

[666blaziken]

or pull a luigi and every one out of 5 food will be super.

 

[Mr.Random]

or pull a luigi and every one out of 5 food will be super.

That too.

 

[DMG]

Super food in its prior form was silly and made no sense. I've literally thrown 2-3 steaks and big meats out in consecutive tosses AND have them combod into each other. That's when you know it's silly.

 

[666blaziken]

Super food in its prior form was silly and made no sense. I've literally thrown 2-3 steaks and big meats out in consecutive tosses AND have them combod into each other. That's when you know it's silly.

So how difficult will it be to implement a 1/5 super food toss?

 

[DMG]

That would be an OK idea, making the 5th or 6th always super bacon, but it's still something he probably doesn't need. Fundamental buffs to his kit and mobility, not changes to Bacon, will help him more (better weight and dash are examples)

 

[G13_Flux]

as much as i loved the superfood it definitely was overkill and was kind of way too good. Honestly the weight and dash changes though i was extremely pleased with. They are definitely more fundamental to the game and will improve GW much more. I do like the idea of charging for super food, forcing you to hold the b button for maybe a second and a half, then release a large projectile that lingers longer than normal bacon. maybe it even auto releases after this time (its not something you can store for later). this would allow you to sacrifice speed and number (in the slew of small SH bacon bits), for a slower option that allows you to tool with covering opponents options and manipulating the outcome of your reward. This way, the randomness is totally controlled, and there will be specific uses for each version of the bacon that game and watch can use, with the super food consisting of its appropriate drawbacks. this could add depth to GWs play while encouraging the player to think analytically about the current situation and which tool would be most rewarding. in a way it could be a toned down version of lucarios super aura sphere.

i have to say im not too into the idea of having every 5 or so bacon be super food. as much as this encourages a player to keep track of how much bacon theyre tossing, it is not as controlled as luigis missile, and prevents you from being able to implement the ability when a smart player would realize it to be useful.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Chef and Luigi missile are not in any way comparable moves. Luigi risks huge endlag just attempting the move. There's actual risk/reward involved in trying to store and use a misfire. Chef has basically no risk. There is no technique for storing "super" bacon that wouldn't lead to degenerate gameplay. I would just run away and throw meat until it was loaded up and then get brain dead kills off of UAir or UpB.

There is no scenario where buffing such a spamable projectile into a kill is good for the game. "super" bacon was an awful idea and it belongs six feet under with 2.5 Sonic.

 

[G13_Flux]

alright well that is your opinion. read my post though, i never said anything about storing super food, simply a charge that would auto release when fully charged. if properly designed, it could actually add a lot of depth to GW, which i have described with quite few detailed points. something like that can easily be regulated with the proper drawbacks of committing to a charge, and leaving you highly susceptible to punish if used too frequently or without careful thought. if you hate the food, thats fine, we all admit the 2.6 build was not quite what PM has in mind. but in trying to discuss possibilities for its come-back in a different form, saying that simply any version of the super food is merely like 2.5 sonic is almost as bad as the people on the wario page saying the character is absolute crap since he got a few nerfs.

 

[Metmetm3t]

alright well that is your opinion. read my post though, i never said anything about storing super food, simply a charge that would auto release when fully charged. if properly designed, it could actually add a lot of depth to GW, which i have described with quite few detailed points. something like that can easily be regulated with the proper drawbacks of committing to a charge, and leaving you highly susceptible to punish if used too frequently or without careful thought. if you hate the food, thats fine, we all admit the 2.6 build was not quite what PM has in mind. but in trying to discuss possibilities for its come-back in a different form, saying that simply any version of the super food is merely like 2.5 sonic is almost as bad as the people on the wario page saying the character is absolute crap since he got a few nerfs.

The reason "super" bacon will never work is because Chef serves a very specific purpose in G&W's tool set. It is a projectile that fits a very similar profile to Mario's fireballs; it takes up space and causes enough hitstun to be terrifying. The bacon is for lockdown so G&W doesn't even need to hit with it for it to be effective. It's only about maintaining pressure. The nature of the move doesn't really stack well with it also becoming a deadly attack somehow (whichever manor you want to come up with).

To elaborate further, "super" bacon doesn't add anything to regular bacon so you have essentially created a new move that is separate from regular bacon, because it fills a different role in G&W's toolset. This new move is not going to add much of anything to G&W's tool set because he already has more kill blows than any other character in the game.

Making Chef a charge move specifically would bring about it's own set of challenges. For one it auto-cancels when G&W lands, so the move would just fail a lot out of jump. The other problem is what do you all of the in-between holds? You could take two common approaches to that question. Either it does nothing and G&W get's a lot of silly situations where he accidentally charges or thinks he can charge but runs out of time and gets nothing. Or, the other way is that he has a lot of half charge levels that do increasingly more damage. Then you really have just made a smash attack that has incredible range and safety, so you probably just made USmash and FSmash (two of the best smashes in the game) useless.

 

[G13_Flux]

well, im definitely going to disagree on the fact that it wont add anything further to his moveset. while i agree, he definitely has enough tools to KO as is, that doesnt mean that it makes super bacon useless. In the event that the PMBR finds GWs powerful one hitters a bit polarizing, it might not be a bad idea to lessen those, and then create a new dynamic in his projectile such that he has tools for new situations now, forcing the opponent to read correspondingly, and increasing the options that GW has in a given situation. as far as the mechanics of the move goes, i was really just tossing out a possible idea. Its not like ive tested every possibly outcome of my suggestion, im sure that the mechanics of any given move can be tweaked to be logical given enough time to work with it. regardless, im not a die hard advocate for super food here. while i enjoyed playing with it, i was only trying to spark proactive conversation of the possibilities, given that the PMBR has already said its a possibility for returning. its much less useful to them to knock something right off the bat without at least given a good description of your thoughts, if you understand where im coming from .

 

[&Y_]

While the giant bacon was hilarious, the fact that I can dacus in for the kill every single time I get the bacon hit is wonderful. It also sets up for fairs and nairs beautifully. It's basically Falco's Laser except janky and mid range. I personally don't think there need to be any changes to the bacon.

Upsmash>SuperFood

 

[666blaziken]

ok, I understand why game and watch was changed now. I guess he doesn't need any super food anyway. But I do think that G13_Flux is right. IF the super food came back, then it could be caused by holding the B over pure randomness.

 

[Nemiak temp]

UM. WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT HIS NEW DASH LENGTH? His dash dance is SO good now. No more low tier johns from you GW mains I hope.

 

[G13_Flux]

i actually did mention it, just in another thread. the increase in weight and new dash length definitely are big improvements to help out GW on a more fundamental level. his dying early was definitely my biggest issue with him before, but now since 2.1, theyve already given him 2 increases in weight. soooo good.

 

[Nemiak temp]

He's still lighter than Marth though which is good, he doesn't need to be that heavy with a punish game like his. I Don't think he needed the weight increase but definitely an improvement. I CAN'T SAY IT ENOUGH HOW GODLIKE HIS NEW DASH IS THOUGH

 

[RomeDogg]

I think the large bacon looked stupid. I wouldn't want it to come back in any form. I just think he should be able to use his air dodge after his up-b, thats the only change I really want.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Why should he air dodge out of up-B? His recovery is already pretty amazing as it is.

 

[G13_Flux]

as much as that would help him, itd be too broken. not only would that make his recovery just simply amazing (it already is really good), but it would also sort of break his OOS game. you'd be seeing up B OOS > platform WD left and right and the opponent would hardly be able to catch him. this would force them to try and grab (since his up b OOS is so good already), truly polarizing a lot of MUs. GW has such a good OOS move that it would be a lot to give him an air dodge after that as well, since now, people that were able to capitalize on him before sacrificing any form of positional advantage (by putting himself above them), would now have to factor in the possibility of an air dodge as well. air dodge after up B would just make GW too safe in too many situations. its the same reason that sonic, snake, and mewtwo dont have the air dodge either after their up Bs.

 

[Deleted member]

I would just love to see the frying pan changed, he's already got a Down Special, that doesn't work on a number of the cast, and I never really liked the way the frying pan worked. I hope they change it to something cooler. Maybe a counter?

 

[Crezyte]

Alright so I playing G and W recently at Ryo's birthday tournament in friendlies because i've recently wanted to start playing him and I feel like the biggest need for improvement is how slowly he techs. I don't know if he has the slowest tech roll or not but he is definitely around jigglypuff level, which is bad because G and W isn't an aerial character like jiggs, which means he is going to need to tech more often due to trading more often.

To wrap up what I'm saying, right now, rolling and teching to a side don't feel like viable options to me. Also marf f-throw tipper too e z.

 

[G13_Flux]

if you use GW properly as an extremely offensively based character like hes designed then you will begin to realize why his rolls and such arent quite up to par.

 

[jtm94]

I know he had some of the worst roll invincibility in melee for sure. It's pretty slow, but I don't think it's slower than Captain Falcon or Squirtle.

I still REALLY want to see some super food "shapes" in chef. They can work like they did before RNG-wise, but just all have the same uniform KB. It would just make it more difficult to avoid.

I really like chef, but for a projectile... I find myself getting punished when the bacon flies too high and my opponent just runs under it to hit me. It is especially inconvenient because the most effective way to use chef is to Short Hop it, putting the bacon even higher than it already goes. I know you can aim it down, but that seems so unintuitive to do over and over again mid game and you'll end up fastfalling half of the time.

 

[&Y_]

I would just love to see the frying pan changed, he's already got a Down Special, that doesn't work on a number of the cast, and I never really liked the way the frying pan worked. I hope they change it to something cooler. Maybe a counter?

Bacon is crazy good. It can completely shut out plenty of characters and skillet spike combos are so much fun. I like the way that his neutral special works and think it is one of GnW's better moves. As for the Bucket I think that being able to jump cancel it would be fun. All of the other characters with simular moves like the PK kids can do it why can't GDubs? Though that would make bucket braking even sillier.

 

[G13_Flux]

i think its because the bucket begins as a defensive move. Its purpose is not to combo, although it can be a combo finisher. Its already amazing that he can prematurely release the bucket as an opponent approaches. As far as bacon goes, some characters can get under it really quickly, but that just says that the situation you should be using it in isnt in the neutral game.

 

[jtm94]

Idk, bacon is weird good sometimes, and terribad other times. I have very mixed feelings. I try to use it a lot in my playstyle, but it really only serves as a minor annoyance or free damage if my op is above me.

I wish we could jump out of the bucket. It would be much better for absorbing projectiles.

 

[F. Blue]

What if the Giant Bacon were itself nerfed, just to be less rewarding? It would still be cool to have, even if it only had a larger hitbox and 1% extra damage.

 

[jtm94]

I would enjoy that.

 

[Deleted member]

Or maybe instead of throwing bacon randomly around, we only have on piece of bacon that fires horizontally, and make it chargeable, the longer you fry the food, the more knockback it does.

 

[jtm94]

That's a reach imo, I think it should maintain similarish mechanics.

 

[mechtroid]

I always figured the big fruit should go until they hit something, like Yoshi's eggs. No increased damage or hitbox, just a possibility of increased reach.

 

[Artimus]

Chargeable anything on GW thats not a smash attack is bad. His tech and roll speed is already slow, his dash isn't that great either. Bacon spam is already punishable to a patient player, so why would we want to add a highly situational, slower neutral move that has little to no reward unless off stage? I don't like the idea of any move on him being charged. His neutral game already sucks, let's not add something that might punish you for accidentally holding the b button for more than a fraction of a second and have massive landing lag. If anything, just give it more angles by using the thumbstick. Like foxes recovery or waddle Dees.