G&W salt?

[Shockbound]

I've been exclusively playing Mr. Game & Watch with my friends for quite a while, but it seems that every time I play with them I find no end of briny backwash. It's not due to the way that I play in general either; their saltiness sources from the Watchman himself.

I've constantly been told that I need to play a different character because Game & Watch does not teach the fundamentals normally required to play the game well since he's such an oddball of a character. Apparently, I don't need to learn proper spacing, timing, or blocking because of his disjoint, linger time, and crouch cancel respectively.

I find their degree of saltiness rather unreasonable, but I can see where it comes from. Game & Watch is downright frustrating to play against. Most of his hitboxes can keep him super safe and borderline unapproachable. Perhaps what is the largest salt generator in G&W's arsenal, getting whacked by a Judge hammer doesn't feel like Game & Watch pulled off a really difficult combo or did anything particularly special, it feels like RNG decided to cost them the game. Even though RNG played a very small role in that, since it was really either the receiver's own fault for getting hit by it in the first place and/or from an actual read or leadup from G&W, it just doesn't feel like that from the receiving end.

Personally, I think that Game & Watch doesn't play quite like anything else. This is something that I think my friends recognize, but don't quite entirely understand. I wanted to see if you guys have had some of the same experiences when playing as G&W, so that I can at least feel a little better about pissing everybody off for playing the character that I like.

 

[Metmetm3t]

The things that come to mind when we are talking about the "fundamentals" of smash are L-Canceling, Dash Dancing, Wavelanding, SHFFLing, Wave Dashing, DIing, SDIing, and patience. Which are all very important to achieving high level G&W play and practicing them will have a noticeable impact on your game.

He does have one of the silliest gimmick moves in the game with Judgement, but it's not particularly abuseable as long as they are trying to play good fundamentals, because just throwing the move out is no better than spamming smash attacks, which should never work, and blindly comboing into hammer will lead to a lot of those combos ending early and costing G&W in the long run.

I would ask your friends what he thinks smash fundamentals are, and why he thinks G&W doesn't need them.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Personally,I think the salt is a reason to play him,in that case.I might sound weird,but if your friends are going to whine that you won because you played X character,they deserve to have it happen in the first place.
Just my $.02.

 

[gmBottles]

This could be why

 

[Shockbound]

I'm not actually winning all that often, they just think G&W is annoying to play against because a lot of moves/strats/combos that would work against other characters don't do anything to him. Being able to Up-B to escape any combo is frustrating to them, and I often hear "If I did that to any other character, you'd be dead." G&W gets to do a lot of stuff with a single button press that other characters would have to struggle to pull off, so a lot of his stuff seems like it's been given to him for 'free', as I often hear them say.

The things that come to mind when we are talking about the "fundamentals" of smash are L-Canceling, Dash Dancing, Wavelanding, SHFFLing, Wave Dashing, DIing, SDIing, and patience. Which are all very important to achieving high level G&W play and practicing them will have a noticeable impact on your game.

I'm talking about more basic fundamentals, like being the right distance away from someone and timing moves appropriately. They think it detracts from my ability to play other characters and that it makes me more predictable. For example, I pull out a D-Air and begin fastfalling while I'm quite a ways above them which prompts them to react to it with a shield or roll or whatever. I often hear "I could see that coming from a mile away," because they can see what I'm doing pretty early. This is partially because Mr. Game & Watch's moves are so easily recognizable (D-Air is that key move, F-Tilt is that chair move, etc.), but also because they think that if I did a similar move to that with any other character I could have been punished super hard. Once I land and L-cancel, G&W has the option to Up-B right out of there if things look bad, which is something that no other character can do. This has led to them calling his Up-B the "get out of jail free card." Perhaps I could be a little better about how I telegraph my attacks, but since I'm never getting punished for it, I don't really see the need to.

I don't understand why they think it matters that G&W may or may not be hurting my ability to play another character well, because I'm just going to keep playing him. If what I'm doing is working then that's not my problem, it's theirs for letting it work.

So I ask, are people genuinely salty about Mr. Game & Watch outside of my group of friends? Or are they just mad 'cuz bad?

 

[Xanthyr]

If you're getting out of combos with your up-B, guess what, it wasn't a combo. GDubs seems to have less animations on all of his moves so it has the appearance that you're not doing as much vs other characters. I don't play G&W, but I play against a few strong ones. If they up-B, it's my bad. So if you're telegraphing a dair that you'll l-cancel and up-B right after, I'd just run towards you and jump up to catch you in your up-B and start from there.


I get salty sometimes about random 8's or even 9's, but what can you do. I know you can have an idea by watching the stars on the number, so I keep an eye for that and plan accordingly.

It sounds like your friends are feeling cheated by G&W because they think they play better than you. The comments like "If you were any other character you'd be dead" and getting mad at the mechanics of G&W up-B that means they're trying to punish you and you're denying that with a really really good up-B. In the end, they're not as good as they think they are, and if they're getting punished by overextending and mis-spacing, then that's their fault, sadmadbad.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Sounds like they're just making excuses."If you were any other character you'd be dead!""G&W is too safe."Tough,time to change your tactics,buddy.If G&W is giving you problems when you can "see that coming a mile away"it's time to adjust your tactics. = what I'd tell them.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Ah, the infamous "frame one Up-b." It is often cited as a "free" escape. Many players associate something that is frame one with something that is perfect and unbeatable, but that is just a placebo. A frame one hitbox doesn't necessarily mean it is unbeatable.

Spoiler: This is G&W's hitbox on frame one:

It's a pretty nice hitbox it covers a little below G&W, but it notably doesn't cover his head or arms which are vulnerable and any disjointed move would easily poke him.

Spoiler: And here it is 8 Frames later:

Notice G&W didn't go anywhere? That means that the opponent has an 8 Frame window to punish G&W before he even begins to move. Which is more than enough time for most characters to slip in a jab or grab out of shield.

After he escapes he may be away, but he isn't out of the woods. Using Up-B means no more Air Dodge. Unless there is a platform to land on G&W can be left incredibly vulnerable. He has low air mobility so catching up to him is pretty simple and the only tools he has to defend himself are double jump and down air.

While I'm not saying that Up-B is a bad move, I will say that many players have overestimated it's flexibility and given it credit for more than what it is. Compared to Samus's Up-B which is invincible on frame one and starts moving on frame four, G&W's Up-B is pretty tame.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

It certainly isn't unbeatable, but that doesn't mean the move isn't ridiculous. The sheer mileage g&w gets out of this move is kinda ridiculous, honestly the hitbox doesn't have to be big. Burst movement that comes out on frame 1, propels him pretty far up to allow for some ridiculous follow up potential, and it makes the use of it relieving pressure, and to a lesser extent his recovery, that much safer. To me, it centralizes his play style a little too much around it, instead of complimenting it, because of it's plethora of uses.

Let me make it clear though by saying again that this move is beatable, and while it has many uses, it doesn't do everything for him. It certainly isn't 3.02 mewtwo teleport shenanigans, but it's still ridiculous. Also let me say that I'm not some randy complaining about something I don't understand. I'm a fairly decent player with a good bit of matchup experience against him, not the most but a good bit. So if you want my opinion, someone who isn't in your friend circle and is part of the competitive smash community, g&w isn't broken by any means, but his up b is "stupid". So you shouldn't let their salt get to you, or anyone's for that matter. Continue playing the character you like because you have every right too. G&W isn't some unbeatable top tier that gets his wins for free, your friends are just overly salty.

 

[Juushichi]

I think it's more correct to say that his burst movement starts on Frame 1 and propels him on Frame 8. It still gets stuffed by meaty attacks, still can be baited and more. I honestly think that even if it were to be pushed back to say... frame 3 (which is what Mario has, is invincible and has full body coverage), people would still be salty about it and have the same complaints.

I believe that people are going to be salty in any case.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

It's defensive qualities and it's ability to relieve pressure, by themselves, aren't the reason for a good player's "salt" about the move. It's that on top of the fact he can jump out of it, which gives him amazing offensive potential by allowing him to follow up from distances and moves he normally couldn't. It can be baited, but that doesn't matter too much considering how safe he is after he does it, with the added potential that if he hits you with it he can get a string off. Not to mention if he doesn't do it, and you're trying to bait it out, the window is small enough for it to be pretty difficult to react to. So you're usually at some kind of risk when engaging him, or when you have him in a string. Unless you're marth, I don't think it really matters in that matchup, because of the right combination of speed, disjointed range, and kill power he has.

The hypothetical scenario to where g&w gets mario's statics on his up wouldn't really change the move that much honestly, if of course he could still jump out of it. If he couldn't jump out of it, and he had invincibility and a better hitbox, it'd be a better move while at the same time having a healthy risk to it, so I can't imagine people being salty about it. However, lets take a spin on that and change the scenario. What if we gave mario the stats of g&w's up b, which would be a single hitting one frame move that propels him up on frame 8, and you can jump out of. How do you think that would work? Another example, do the same thing to charizard, do you think that would be acceptable? If I was a bettin man, I'd put all my money down on any reasonable person saying it would be ridiculous, because it is. Giving relatively safe offensive options, on a defensive move, on a character that already has decent combo and kill potential is going to make said move absolutely ridiculous, even if you can bait it.

So that move is only reasonably salt worthy because of the added offensive benefits the move has with it's existing defensive ones. Having said that, I would never discourage you from playing him, or for that matter any sensible person wouldn't. So if I was ever to play you, I wouldn't complain, but I'll still think his up b is stupid.

 

[Shmoopy]

I don't really know what your saying. Well, it's a good mr G&W dosn't have any salt attacks, or else.............nah, forget it

 

[Shockbound]

@ Mr.Pickle I'd rather we not try to theorize what it would be like for certain characters to have the moves of other characters, I find that it often skews the view of what the real case is. Of course a lot of characters would be stupid broke if they had G&W's Up-B, but that's a result of how much they could abuse it with the rest of their moveset. G&W is not at all like other characters and has a move like this to reflect that. Not to say that his moveset doesn't mesh well with his Up-B, it does, but I feel pretty safe in saying that if a lot of other characters had their Up-B replaced with G&W Up-B they would be stupid broke. Similarly, taking G&W's Up-B away from him and replacing it with something else hurts the way he plays since it is entirely unique to him, and this isn't fair because the rest of his moveset design is balanced with his Up-B in mind.

Basically, the move is only stupid if you're comparing it to each individual Up-B from every character. It's an incredibly strong move, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily too powerful. It has the potential of being too powerful in the hands of most characters, but Game & Watch has a moveset to compliment it in a way that doesn't make him totally busted. Note that I say his moveset compliments his Up-B and not the other way around; the move is definitely strong on its own and in the hands of any character. G&W just has a moveset with appropriate power (which does not mean weaker) to justify having such a strong move in my eyes.

 

[jtm94]

Tell them GnW is still bad and they should suck it up. Players like Nintendude and Green Ranger use GnW just because he rewards good fundamentals. Boohoo they got hit by a 9 hammer. It doesn't hit on frame 1, 2, 3, 4.... not until frame 16 and ends on like frame 50. It doesn't have a large hitbox, doesn't grant invincibility, and can not be L-cancelled. Literately if they are mad about it they are bad. You could have used ANY other move which is more consistent, faster, and safer than hammer.

UpB is fast yeah, but people need to realize that GnW is extremely unsafe in the air. It is by far the worst position for him and is worse than it is for most other characters. He has no fast aerials, cannot air dodge, usually no jumps. His combo weight is also terrible for him and I don't get saying anything like "this would have worked on any other character" that makes little to no sense. If you are escaping combos they need to do it better and try harder.

There's no real way to convince them to stop being upset, what YOU need to do is realize you can play whoever and however you want. This is what I have done and my opponent going on about my character has stopped affecting me.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Fair enough, I only made the comparison because Juushichi mentioned adding qualities from another move similar to it, hypothetically of course, but I've made my point, I could go into more detail but I wont to prevent from derailing this thread.

 

[KABO0S]

If people are complaining about GnW, it's usually more about how long they've been playing that particular session than anything else in my experience. People get salty if they go on tilt in a particular session and they complain about every little thing. We're all guilty of it.