Full HOp autocancel Nair

[soap]

i was messing around with aerial hitboxes and stuff and i didnt know that u could actually nair onto the ground and have it autocancel.

the easiest way to time it is do a rising nair, but NOT the frame perfect one where u hit stuff on the ground on the way up, then fastfall asap and it will hit people on the ground on the way down and autocancel.

i was actually doing it in friendlies right into shields and pulling out the utilt half the time to stuff shieldgrab. but u can just easily drift over to the back of the shield, or space the tip of the foot into a dtilt.

there are other timings to get the autocancel + and the floor hitbox. nair at the top, dont fastfall until the last second, u gotta get a feel for it.

seems useful, u can call a jump, if they dont jump u have some pressure on the way down as opposed to had u thrown out a fair

 

[NeighborhoodP]

this sounds useful

 

[KirbyKaze]

**** Sheik's Nair is amazing.

I thought everyone already used this stuff. Oh well. Either way it's good to discuss it.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

too good i must add.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

**** Sheik's Nair is amazing.

I thought everyone already used this stuff. Oh well. Either way it's good to discuss it.

nah, i've never seen this **** and i've been reading up on **** for over two years now =/

i feel like a noob

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik's Nair is amazing.

 

[Hazygoose]

why space nairs against shielded opponents when you can TURRET FIGHT, YEAH!
:D

srsly, nice find, though. i am still a fan of spacing fairs CJ style for shield pressure, but if i can get good at that auto-cancel the range might come in handy in similar situtations :o

 

[Tope]

weak nair dash attack

weak nair any tilt

same goes with weak bair

 

[xMosmo]

the easiest way to time it is do a rising nair, but NOT the frame perfect one where u hit stuff on the ground on the way up, then fastfall asap and it will hit people on the ground on the way down and autocancel.

Whenever I try to make things not frame perfect I **** everything up.

I can't tell if thats a good thing or a bad thing. ha.

I'd just l-cancel the nairs, i mean, the longer the move is out, the softer it hits. more power = more shield stun, everyone loves shield stun. so if you just hit them on the way up, you have two chances to hit them with the full power of the move *shrug*.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Basically, when you're about half-way up (eyeball it) do the Nair and then FF.

You don't have to be frame perfect with the rising Nair into FF Nair unless you're trying to do something vaguely insane with it like hitting a crouched Kirby. Most of the important characters (Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Falcon) can be hit with this and have a fairly lenient window of error.

I find for the Nair at peak of jump --> FF down near the end it's really easy if you do it right as Sheik's body is about to touch or is touching a tall character.

 

[soap]

Whenever I try to make things not frame perfect I **** everything up.

I can't tell if thats a good thing or a bad thing. ha.

I'd just l-cancel the nairs, i mean, the longer the move is out, the softer it hits. more power = more shield stun, everyone loves shield stun. so if you just hit them on the way up, you have two chances to hit them with the full power of the move *shrug*.

if u hit them on the way up the move will be over by the time u land and u get ZERO shield stun on the way down. with this method u get minimal shield stun, but u have no lag other than the normal landing lag. im not sure if this is enough to prevent the shieldgrab or not i need to test more, but its still very useful as an approach, u control the air above them and at the same time can still space the move on the shield with zero lag.

only down side is that most bairs plow through even a strong nair, so if they are quick with their bairs they will eat this up

i think it should be immune to CC though as u could shield in time prolly

 

[soap]

nah, i've never seen this **** and i've been reading up on **** for over two years now =/

i feel like a noob

i didnt know either

KK u are sneaky with those spoilers

i knew nair autocancels in a full hop but didnt know u could make it hit the ground +autocancel

 

[soap]

so apparently u can sh nair asap, fastfall the last possible second or no fastfall and autocancel too, nair is so good, im about to start spamming it more than cactus

 

[Cactuar]

so apparently u can sh nair asap, fastfall the last possible second or no fastfall and autocancel too, nair is so good, im about to start spamming it more than cactus

Impossible.

 

[soap]

so quick with the search skills

 

[soap]

Impossible.

haha i think ur actually right, fox can nair like three times in the time it takes sheik to do one

 

[KirbyKaze]

The only way to out-Nair Cactuar would be to mash Nair every time he stops to stare at you for ten seconds.

You have to take advantage of his Cactus mindgame and just spam Nair like you have gorilla legs.

 

[I.B]

****ing cactus

****ing ninja

 

[KirbyKaze]

I.B is a hater.

 

[soap]

The only way to out-Nair Cactuar would be to mash Nair every time he stops to stare at you for ten seconds.

after i clearly miss the first one he hits me with five, 5:1 is a bad ratio

 

[KirbyKaze]

Curses my plan has been foiled.

 

[soap]

**** KK i was just speculating about **** when i wrote this, but your nairs were ****** me in dittos. u really applied it well. your sheik is hawt

 

[KirbyKaze]

Your Sheik is slippery.

But I guess that's expected when your name is soap.

Nair ***** in Sheik dittos I think, that and needles. And grabs clearly but grabs **** every matchup with Sheik.

edit: elaboration.

It's faster than Fair (frame 3 vs frame 5) and comes out in front of her before Fair reaches down (Fair starts really high and then stretches forward for the rest of its duration) so you can Nair people out of Fairs if you do them at a similar time and similar height. That's pretty pimp. There's not too much priority in Nair, though, at least not in front, so it's not wise to challenge a Fair or Bair that's already out. But the speed difference is worth a lot of free damage.

It's got a massive hitbox. I think her Nair hitbox doesn't reach too much in front of her but I think it reaches a lot below her on the front leg so it seems to cut through F-tilt or trade with it a lot. And it's got okay priority above/in front of it so you can just Nair after people moving around platforms and often nick them before they can get another aerial out.

So yeah. It's her fastest aerial and it's priority is mostly below the legs and above the front leg (not in front but above it) so you can beat F-tilts and other crap with it a lot too and because of its duration you can eat spot-dodges with ease. Autocancel means if you time and space it you won't be CC grabbed or any of that nonsense. It's not too hard to full jump Nair over another Sheik's SH Fair and then fast fall on top of them and have yours win because their hitbox has either finished or simply because you nick their head (Fair only reaches above your head on frame 5-6 so if you time and space you can catch them at any other point during their Fair and beat it which is pretty sick). And if you do that you might get the autocancel (no lag wheeeee) and a fancy combo too, possibly Nair --> F-tilt --> Grab and then they die by chain grab. Or if it's a no CG ditto then another F-tilt and a tech chase or dash attack (depends on percent) so there's a lot of stuff you can do.

So yeah, Nair is good. I'm not sure how good, but it's pretty okay, and it needs to be used more lolz.

The weakness of the Nair is people jump back and waiting for you to land and then hitting you but hopefully your zoning and spacing is not so horribly underdeveloped that you'll fall for that every time

But, just so you know, Fair is still better than Nair in Sheik dittos. Nair is a good thing to use too though.

tl;dr if you jump above somebody's head with Nair when they're not doing anything and they go after you with anything or try to defend with moves if you time your FF correctly you'll beat it.

 

[soap]

tl;dr if you jump above somebody's head with Nair when they're not doing anything and they go after you with anything or try to defend with moves if you time your FF correctly you'll beat it.

i actually read the whole thing, but good info

i like these "specific move" threads, i learn alot more than when people just vaguely discuss their "style" and "approaches"

 

[KirbyKaze]

Teczero was telling me about this really homo Nair stuff the other day.

He was telling me that a perfectly L-cancelled Nair on the bottom of someone's shield has enough shieldstun to lock them in shield AND if you both do grab (them doing shield-grab, of course), you will get them first.

Now, I was a bit skeptical. But I looked into it because I'm ******** and didn't have anyone to practice with or on at that particular moment. So I shucked through pages of information and PMs with various people and I think I have this correct. If scotu or whatever wants to tell me I'm stupid and am doing it wrong, please feel free to.

Alright, so I checked phanna / scotu's guide on hitstun (sadly incomplete, but it had Sheik's information thankfully) and this is what I found after scotu directed me to it so nicely...

Hitlag / Shield Stun / Move
07 / 15 / Neutral Air
06 / 12 / Neutral Air (stale)

So... if I'm reading this correctly, when Sheik's Nair hits a shield, there are 7 frames of hitlag (assume full power) so that would be when the game sort of stalls. During that time, shield stun (15 frames) is occuring. So they occur at the same time (I'm just piecing this together with Scotu's shield pressure guide in mind).

So it would resemble

Frame / action
(Red is the opponent NOT in shield stun, Green is the opponent in shield stun; yay for ripping scotu's format)
1 Opponent in shield
2 Sheik's Nair hits shield at lowest point, hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6 Hitlag
7 Hitlag
8 Hitlag
9 Sheik lands, L-cancel for 8 frames (1)
10 L-cancel (2)
11 L-cancel (3)
12 L-cancel (4)
13 L-cancel (5)
14 L-cancel (6)
15 L-cancel (7)
16 L-cancel (8)
17 Sheik grabs (1)
18 Grab (2)
19 Grab (3)
20 Grab (4)
21 Grab (5)
22 Grab (6)
23 Grab Hits (7)

Alright... so taking all that into consideration, I think I've calculated this correctly (this assumes you do it frame perfectly and hit their shield at the lowest possible point with the strong, not-stale Nair) then your shield-grab should tie with the opponent's at worst, and probably win if you have a better controller port, or they didn't shield-grab frame perfectly.

That's actually pretty crazy. I might ask scotu or magus or something to verify if I've done this correctly though, 'cuz I'm not sure if I made mistakes or not.

Shield stun is so weird lol.

Anyways, that looks like it works from here. At worst your shield pressure ties with them instead of giving you a free grab. And that assumes you mispaced. I bet you could space to avoid their shield-grab and have yours win because of Sheik's super grab range ****.

That's horrifying LOL. I love you.

So, yeah.

Questions, comments, concerns, etc?

I haven't been playing Sheik too much lately, but if someone else wanted to test and start using it and bringing results that would be nice. I think Sheik's only problem right now is that she doesn't have enough ways to grab spanimals so this could be a very good help there.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

That'd be really hard to time to get the timing on the nair right, and plus they don't have to shieldgrab you... they could just roll away. Anyway, you could just jab them to stuff the shieldgrab and then grab.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Sheik should always be in controller port 3 right?

soap do you have aim

edit: or you kirbykaze? i just figured something out about sheik, dunno how wellk nown it is. thinking about making a thread.

lol @ roll away. elven you say some really noob stuff sometimes.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That'd be really hard to time to get the timing on the nair right, and plus they don't have to shieldgrab you... they could just roll away. Anyway, you could just jab them to stuff the shieldgrab and then grab.

See, the problem with Jab --> Grab is that literally everyone I play knows how to CC. Especially on Sheik, because without CC I could just walk around and F-tilt people, Jab-Grab spam on people, and U-tilt spam mindlessly. But sadly that's not the case. They know how to do it. They **** me for doing it. So I tend to avoid doing it. In fact, my current goal is to remove any and all dependency from Jab from my game except on gimping and edgeguarding (and knocking over Fox at 130 into D-smashes or whatever).

I think the real thing this does is that it eliminates the best counterattack most characters have on Sheik. That screws with people. Also, it makes them have to lag in order to deal with Sheik pressure and punishing filthy, horrible lag with Sheik is very, very easy. And rewarding.

 

[Hazygoose]

i can't imagine hitting with nair as low as possible more consistantly than my opponent can just shield-grab :\

 

[KirbyKaze]

idk shield grabs are pretty slow lol.

I get your point though. No real logical reply because obviously you've pointed out one of the larger flaws with low aerial pressure. If they shield-grab prior to the move coming out, yeah, you're screwed.

I'm sure there are ways to do this quickly to bypass such a thing though. Or at least make it awkward for them to counter. SH FF Nair Fox style anyone? Just brainstorming here.

edit: Personally, I think this is really cool shield-pressure and given how Sheik is amazing and stuff, I am going to try to work it into my game if I can find a way that can help me avoid your noted flaw in preemptive shieldgrabs (I also love her unattractive dead fish kick *coughsoapcough*). If it doesn't work, oh well, if it does, then I see Sheik gaining another much-needed way of sneaking grabs onto those blasted furries.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

lol @ roll away. elven you say some really noob stuff sometimes.

Okay, well, you could spotdodge or jump or something. My point is that you don't have to shieldgrab, and generally it's not a good idea to shieldgrab anyway unless they connect super high on your shield.

See, the problem with Jab --> Grab is that literally everyone I play knows how to CC. Especially on Sheik, because without CC I could just walk around and F-tilt people, Jab-Grab spam on people, and U-tilt spam mindlessly. But sadly that's not the case. They know how to do it. They **** me for doing it. So I tend to avoid doing it. In fact, my current goal is to remove any and all dependency from Jab from my game except on gimping and edgeguarding (and knocking over Fox at 130 into D-smashes or whatever).

I think the real thing this does is that it eliminates the best counterattack most characters have on Sheik. That screws with people. Also, it makes them have to lag in order to deal with Sheik pressure and punishing filthy, horrible lag with Sheik is very, very easy. And rewarding.

But if they're shieldgrabbing, they're probably not going to be crouch canceling during the grabbing animation, since it's impossible. I think Magus has some crazy fake shieldgrab ASDI down thing in the works, but I don't think anyone really uses that yet. So the jab grab would still work.

 

[KirbyKaze]

*shrug*

I can only speak from experience on that one because I'm not sure how it works.

All I know is that when I Jab Marths around here when they're trying to shield-grab, they hold down, I trade my measely 4% Jab for getting grabbed by Marth, and it ***** my soul. So now I don't Jab shields. I think, for the most part, there are much, much better methods of shield pressure and much better ways to avoid being grabbed.

I think holding down lets the ASDI overpower the Jab's relatively weak knockback and grounds your character, thus reducing hitstun and all that jazz, but I don't know for fact and won't pretend to.

If you don't believe me, test with a friend.

 

[soap]

ive always done super late nairs to dsmash for a while and it nails the shieldgrabber everytime

i could try grabbing from now on maybe.

a good mixup is throw out auto-cancel fair at top of shield and drift back to dsmash.

one hits early, one late.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I like to Bair.

SH rising Bair FF Autocancel wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Don't do it stupidly and make sure you can do it fast enough to hit standing Fox in the head as your rising with the Bair (with the sweetspot) so you can catch him if he tries to be cute or jump or do shenanigans and stuff.

And then I do stuff after it sometimes but often I just wait and then punish because their shield is under attack oh no what are they going to do they must do stuff or they'll keep being under attack.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

ASDI doesn't reduce hitstun, crouching does. Have you tried double jabbing?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think I have, but not recently.

 

[soap]

I like to Bair.

SH rising Bair FF Autocancel wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Don't do it stupidly and make sure you can do it fast enough to hit standing Fox in the head as your rising with the Bair (with the sweetspot) so you can catch him if he tries to be cute or jump or do shenanigans and stuff.

And then I do stuff after it sometimes but often I just wait and then punish because their shield is under attack oh no what are they going to do they must do stuff or they'll keep being under attack.

they are both good, u cant always be facing the way u want out of shield

u can sh needle turn out of shield but the aerial wont be rising. sh needle turn dj bair is good sometimes too.

everything is good

 

[NeighborhoodP]

i gotta say, i am super unbelievably impressed with the metagame changes sheik has undergone recently

i'm sure they've been there all along, known by the better players, but i am adding all of these things to my game slowly but surely and it has made me at least twice the player i was before

sheik is so much fun to play as a result, and i am once again a hardcore dedicated sheik main. god this board is too good

 

[soap]

ya marth gets boring, all he does is swing a sword

 

[Hazygoose]

dude, all i do all day is play with my sword and it never gets boring. i mean...lolwut?

and kirbykaze, i was actually thinking of situations where a smart player would not be able to shield-grab you before you do the nair or beat you to the grab afterwards: while coming up low from the edge.

a lot of peaches know how to punish ledgehopping sheiks pretty easily - nairing out of shield. however, you can cancel that option if you can catch on to them catching on to you :D i'd like to see this done in a match, since i think in this use it has versatility and application. marths often do the same thing but with grabbing, although i wouldn't suggest it in case they just wd back and fsmash your face off.

but yeah...vs peach from the ledge? someone do it and record it :D if no one does it i'll try it in a week vs kosmos and let you know some results.