Freedom: Across the Smash Games, and its abscence in Smash 4

[pizzapie7]

...sweet ****ing blood, tell me you didn't just say that. Do you not want the scene to be seen as anything other than circlejerking elitist ****s?

Seriously, OP, you're really making the competitive fandom look bad.

To be fair he's not really doing anything truly negative, people around these parts tend to hate on the competitive fandom enough as it is.

I disagree with some of what @ victinivcreate1 is saying, but some of it is also true. Adding mechanical depth for the sake of adding mechanical depth, while rewarding for players who do learn to do it effectively, is not something that Smash Bros should be moving toward. Tech where it is placed should be as equally tricky as it is rewarding, it should have a purpose outside of simply doing it to make you automatically better. I'd only support adding tech if it's adding an option. I love me some options. Wavedashing, in my opinion, is a perfect example of tech in Smash done right. It adds a bit of mechanical depth that you need to practice, but much of the depth is learning how to effectively use it. It also gives the players an option that, after learning, they will always have in their toolkit. I guess some people just don't like practice, but if you're going to get good at anything, including a video game, you need to practice.

EDIT: And I just saw your post @ Ogre_Deity_Link , I guess we'll just have to agree or disagree on where the line between simplistic and difficult lies. I could see removing one of the roll buttons, but I'm not sure how that would work on any controller that's not a Gamecube controller. Considering there will be no Smash game with Melee's air dodge, the fact that it's a physical exploit involving an airdodge into the ground is really irrelevant, so the jump command would no longer be necessary.

 

[Book Jacket]

If you have ideas that are not essentially copy/paste ideas from previous smash games, then I'd be heavily intrigued. Alas, you would be the first Melee 2.0 whiner to even make that effort so it's beyond me why you wouldn't initiate the discussion with those ideas rather than being just another "This game isn't like Melee, which was the best in the series" threads.

Rule of thumb : your ideas can't be ripped straight from melee mechanics. That includes removing aerial landing lag as simply a replacement for l-canceling. The landing lag was clearly implemented for a reason, and we see a stronger ground game present in Smash 4 as a trade-off, so whinging about landing lag does nothing.

You were playing Smash bros melee when you were three years old?

Aside from the fact that makes me feel old, now the whiny entitlement mentality makes sense.

As a general note, L cancelling was great but not accessible. This is a fair criticism because L cancelling holds no inherent decisions about whether or not you do it, no interesting gameplay arises as you ALWAYS L cancel. However, taking it out in favor of no landing lag reduction at all was a terrible decision. You could've solved the problem just by decreasing landing lag across the board.

Wavedashing is great for mobility options but also suffers the same accessibility problem even if it does incorporate good gameplay decisions. As a competitive community I think going forward with new smash games is to emphasize that we are fine with the game being accessible since that is what Sakurai wants. But also that these things need to be in the game in an easier form so that we can also play the game we want. Momentum carrying over when running and jumping, Lower landing lag across the board, dash dancing, all of these are accessible and good compromises between the simplicity the game aims for and the ability to be deeply complex like Melee, 64, or Project M. Because obviously melee 2.0 is impossible and ideally you don't want that because it'll cause the rift between the groups of players just to expand even more.

In the first two, we see an offensive and inflamatory response to a respectfully opinionated post. Whether or not you agree with those opinions is your business and whether or not you state them is your business.

However, in the third, we see a well thought out response that isn't deliberately offensive and intelligently adds to the discussion.

I'm just saying, "whiny entitlement mentality" and "Melee 2.0 whiner" add absolutely nothing to the discussion and only serve to perpetuate the over-aggressive opinion you have shared in countless threads. You can think what you want, but you don't have to be offensive about it. The OP wasn't even offensive at all, and even praised a lot of Brawl's competition, but you attacked it nonetheless.

I mean come on, the guy just wants more options in the next Smash, not a melee carbon-copy. He has an opinion (that yes, is specific enough to warrant a thread), and he shared it. Politely. Maybe a little passionate, but it wasn't anti-casual and it wasn't anti-sakurai. I don't see (for the everloving life of me) what the OP did to warrant all the hate here.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I, for one, support improved rolling. It will be a viable movement option that's easy to perform and has a lot of applications. And most importantly, it's explained within the game.

Exactly! What's wrong with rolling being a little better?

 

[Book Jacket]

Exactly! What's wrong with rolling being a little better?

Depends on how you define wrong.

Simple fact is that improved rolling means stronger options from shield, so it buffs a defensive mechanic some. That could be good. Could be bad. Depends on how you see it.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Depends on how you define wrong.

Simple fact is that improved rolling means stronger options from shield, so it buffs a defensive mechanic some. That could be good. Could be bad. Depends on how you see it.

Well, one of the reasons I'd enjoy a balance between Melee and Brawl, would be to make both offensive AND defensive mechanics viable. Sadly, most competitive players seem to want it all offensive and complain about Brawl's defensive styles. Sure, too much defense DOES get boring, but I don't think that it's fair to make a game be all offensive. Rolling and Shielding SHOULD have some benefit, otherwise, why even bother?

@ pizzapie7 Agreed. Honestly, I can see where you're coming from, I think it just comes down to personal preference. I do know that because Brawl and (most likely) Sm4sh lacks Melee's airdodge+physics. I was simply stating a hypothetical situation in which they brought Wavedashing back...somehow.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Depends on how you define wrong.

Simple fact is that improved rolling means stronger options from shield, so it buffs a defensive mechanic some. That could be good. Could be bad. Depends on how you see it.

The way I see it, why should a defensive tactic be the best movement option? I mean if Lucario had a roll that was a lag-free as MK´s Brawl forward roll, with the same distance Lucario has in Brawl, well thats a little dumb. Its not broken, but dumb IMO.

 

[Saikyoshi]

The way I see it, why should a defensive tactic be the best movement option? I mean if Lucario had a roll that was a lag-free as MK´s Brawl forward roll, with the same distance Lucario has in Brawl, well thats a little dumb. Its not broken, but dumb IMO.

...if the best reason you can come up with is "it's dumb", you don't have a good argument.

 

[Reila]

Your type is always saying "I don't want Melee 2.0, I just want mobility options!", and then your only great ideas are techniques ripped straight out of Melee. A glaring signal to the collective creativity and blatant contradictory nature of your type that continues to be consistently nauseating to read.

Just go play Melee.

They can't. They need to keep bashing Brawl and now Smash 4 as well, instead of just go play ****ing Melee. I mean, if the gameplay is so perfect in Melee, why even bother with the sequels. Leave Brawl and Smash 4 for people who accept change and the people who actually prefer the Brawl-style of gameplay (YES, people who prefer "slower" and "floatier" gameplay styles exist).

 

[Saikyoshi]

They can't. They need to keep bashing Brawl and now Smash 4 as well, instead of just go play ****ing Melee. I mean, if the gameplay is so perfect in Melee, why even bother with the sequels. Leave Brawl and Smash 4 for people who accept change and the people who actually prefer the Brawl-style of gameplay (YES, people who prefer "slower" and "floatier" gameplay styles exist).

Neither you or the OP are doing anything but game- and fandom-bashing. Think about that.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Neither you or the OP are doing anything but game- and fandom-bashing. Think about that.

How am I bashing? Brawl is factually slower than Melee. Did the laws pf the universe change and I wasn't told? People are called bashers for stating facts?

Also? DID YOU NOT READ THE POST COMPLETELY? If you did you'd see that I LIKE competitive Brawl.

Also, about the roll thing? I stated a legitimate reason. Rolls are meant to be defensive tactics. Not offensive ones.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

How am I bashing? Brawl is factually slower than Melee. Did the laws pf the universe change and I wasn't told? People are called bashers for stating facts?

Also? DID YOU NOT READ THE POST COMPLETELY? If you did you'd see that I LIKE competitive Brawl.

Also, about the roll thing? I stated a legitimate reason. Rolls are meant to be defensive tactics. Not offensive ones.

Oh really? Are you Sakurai now? Who are you to objectively state what each intended usage for every mechanic is?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Oh really? Are you Sakurai now? Who are you to objectively state what each intended usage for every mechanic is?

Lol when would a roll be used offensively? Even characters like Mewtwo amd Lucario who had awesome rolls would hardly use them. And I'm pretty sure it says in the instruction manual that rolls are made for a quick escape or something along those lines. Not to move faster than dashing.

 

[Venks]

So... I don't see much constructive discussion happening here. Mods gonna close this thread down anytime soon?

I've used rolling as an offensive option. I'm not a technical player, I charge smash attacks and use tap to jump. I also win a lot of tournaments in Brawl. This game is more about reading your opponent than simple tech skill. And I like it that way.

 

[victinivcreate1]

So... I don't see much constructive discussion happening here. Mods gonna close this thread down anytime soon?

I've used rolling as an offensive option. I'm not a technical player, I charge smash attacks and use tap to jump. I also win a lot of tournaments in Brawl. This game is more about reading your opponent than simple tech skill. And I like it that way.

IMO it should be a test to both tech skill amd mental ability. Not lopsided towards one.

Also, I'm certain I'm not the aggressor here.

 

[Saikyoshi]

How am I bashing? Brawl is factually slower than Melee. Did the laws pf the universe change and I wasn't told? People are called bashers for stating facts?

Also? DID YOU NOT READ THE POST COMPLETELY? If you did you'd see that I LIKE competitive Brawl.

Also, about the roll thing? I stated a legitimate reason. Rolls are meant to be defensive tactics. Not offensive ones.

You've SAID it, but your actions say otherwise. You're basically going, "Hey, some of my best friends are Brawl players, but..."
(In case there's any confusion, I meant OP as in original postER, not original POST.)

And Rolling doesn't HAVE to be defensive. I cite Abel in Street Fighter IV, whose Marseilles Roll was an excellent approaching option. (And by extension, Rolento, who is an example of the same mechanic being used defensively.)

Done right, it can be both ways. As it stands right now, though, it can't be used AT ALL without being punished.

 

[Hong]

So... I don't see much constructive discussion happening here. Mods gonna close this thread down anytime soon?

I've been watching.

It's just a real shame, because the OP and a number of posters have been having an actual discussion about game mechanics instead of needlessly attacker other users or finding another reason to argue about Melee VS Brawl.

Edit - Disregard that. In respects to the creator's request, this thread has been closed.