Freedom: Across the Smash Games, and its abscence in Smash 4

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I can't believe I'm the one saying this...

Come on people, let's stop focusing on the negative and start focusing on the positive. We should just agree to disagree and try to find a compromise. I'm all for ATs so long as they're accessible and don't provide an unneeded barrier.

 

[pizzapie7]

Accessibility is relative and if there is no "barrier" then how are they "advanced"? Not trying to be nitpicky, do you have any suggestions? I'm honestly curious.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I don't entirely agree, but I definitely feel where you are coming from. Lack of momentum, waveland a and dash dancing, essentially the strongest neutral and offensive options, sucks. I do however feel like smash. 4 can remedy some of these things, as we can use tilts, jabs and smashes out of dash.

There are still some things we don't understand that could definitely be improved upon as I see characters moving in a manner in which I'm not accustomed to seeing without implementation of directional air dodges and L-canceling.

In the end I'm still going to stick to Melee, but I have no doubt this game will be a solid contender.

 

[JV5Chris]

Brawl had no lack of mobility options at all... mobility is usually mostly significant insofar as a character is really good at moving in one way, not so much in having a ton of different ways to move.

I would agree that Brawl's mobility is very character specific, but so are the options. The game just has fewer movement abilities the entire cast can utilize. That does bring certain traits more into the forefront, but at the expense of some big possibilities. aMSa's Yoshi and Bizzaro's Ganon do illustrate the difference that can make.

It's all up to personal preference at the end of the day though.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I don't entirely agree, but I definitely feel where you are coming from. Lack of momentum, waveland a and dash dancing, essentially the strongest neutral and offensive options, sucks. I do however feel like smash. 4 can remedy some of these things, as we can use tilts, jabs and smashes out of dash.

There are still some things we don't understand that could definitely be improved upon as I see characters moving in a manner in which I'm not accustomed to seeing without implementation of directional air dodges and L-canceling.

In the end I'm still going to stick to Melee, but I have no doubt this game will be a solid contender.

Honestly this video really kind of shows that a lot of people are jumping the gun on some things.

People are whinging about aerial lag up and down the forums since E3, and yet it's clear from this video that Mario has very little if not close to none on landing from his neutral and bair moves. His attacking seemed to be plenty fast.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Accessibility is relative and if there is no "barrier" then how are they "advanced"? Not trying to be nitpicky, do you have any suggestions? I'm honestly curious.

Why do there have to be barriers? What is the point of having "barriers" especially tech barriers other than to keep people from playing at higher levels?

Hypothetically, what is there to lose if Wavedashing was relegated to a button, or a button and a direction? Ex. L + Direction? Would it destroy the metagame? Would the game be lesser for letting more people access it without weeks, months or even years of practice? I mean, the mental barriers are still there. All it does is remove the mechanical barriers, leaving people free to practice on the more practical applications, and would widen the playing field for more people to play competitively.

And isn't that a thing people have been clamoring for here on Smash Boards? A bigger competitive community?

 

[Hong]

Why do there have to be barriers? What is the point of having "barriers" especially tech barriers other than to keep people from playing at higher levels?

Hypothetically, what is there to lose if Wavedashing was relegated to a button, or a button and a direction? Ex. L + Direction? Would it destroy the metagame? Would the game be lesser for letting more people access it without weeks, months or even years of practice? I mean, the mental barriers are still there. All it does is remove the mechanical barriers, leaving people free to practice on the more practical applications, and would widen the playing field for more people to play competitively.?

I'll agree with this.

Dashes are a standard in a fighting game. While I understand that Smash Bros is not a traditional fighter, and we already have "running", the values still apply. Just having a short, elaborate dash, between walking and running, should be a standard baseline feature taught to you in the "how-to-play" of every Smash Bros. As far as execution goes, yeah. Doesn't need any kind of needlessly arcane input for something that should be standard. Let's focus on more tangible depth.

 

[Vkrm]

And isn't that a thing people have been clamoring for here on Smash Boards? A bigger competitive community?

Not really. I honestly prefer a smaller more intimate community. Compare us with COD for example. It's all moot anyway when you consider smash melee is the most technically demanding smash and also the most popular by far.

 

[ferioku]

This guy is always complaining about the new smash brothers game. I swear not to long ago you said that this game is a failure?

 

[victinivcreate1]

If you have ideas that are not essentially copy/paste ideas from previous smash games, then I'd be heavily intrigued. Alas, you would be the first Melee 2.0 whiner to even make that effort so it's beyond me why you wouldn't initiate the discussion with those ideas rather than being just another "This game isn't like Melee, which was the best in the series" threads.

Rule of thumb : your ideas can't be ripped straight from melee mechanics. That includes removing aerial landing lag as simply a replacement for l-canceling. The landing lag was clearly implemented for a reason, and we see a stronger ground game present in Smash 4 as a trade-off, so whinging about landing lag does nothing.

No problem.

Heneral ideas- combine general gravity engine from melee, with Brawl techs. And make crouch cancelling just as good as it was in melee. Wavedash makes a return, but its not the primary option for movement. Also momentum from a run carries into jump, especially for very fast characters.

You can cancel any part of the initial dash animation with an attack, shield or a CC. For tilts, you have to CC and tilt. However, if you cancel on frame one, all of your cancels must be frame ine, or the move won't cancel.

Idea 1: Make shield even stronger. You can now dash out of it by double tapping the control stick. And all moves that are junp cancelled (like frame 1 shine) are also dash canceallable).

To counter this, attacks deal more shield damage, and more characters have vey quick frame 1/2/3 moves that can be used in conjunction with their heavy shield breakers. Fox can still "waveshine" shieldbreak but hw doesn't have to wavedash. Essentially a dash shine.

I have more ideas, but I'll list them later.

 

[Une]

Brawl characters weren't really limited in mobility, it was approach options and safety that was the issue. Also kind of annoyed people are listing L-Canceling as a mobility option. It's not an option, it's a requirement or you get punished with more lag because it's an artificial barrier just cause.

Dashdancing only sucks in Brawl because you can trip and trip chance checks everytime you initiate a dash. You can still do it but again bad design of Brawl with tripping.

Platform canceling is not a glitch like the OP says, you can do that in Melee and in Brawl. If it is, then Melee is just as guilty for this one.

I agree though Brawl went too far in the opposite direction, but still I don't think more techs is the answer for this over just cutting lag on moves down or making people generally faster.

Yeah I'm pretty sure mash dancing in Bawrl was worthless because of reasons other then random tripping

 

[Master Peach]

I actually like the idea of dashing OoS. It'd be a quicker option than wave dashing OoS and probably able to punish harder on shield pressure. At the same time you could be punished just as hard considering that your opponent could be expecting you to dash OoS. The amount of options this creates is quite good and to me it's welcomed. I'm all for it.

 

[JV5Chris]

Honestly this video really kind of shows that a lot of people are jumping the gun on some things.

People are whinging about aerial lag up and down the forums since E3, and yet it's clear from this video that Mario has very little if not close to none on landing from his neutral and bair moves. His attacking seemed to be plenty fast.

Mario's moveset in this game is just quicker in general. The landing lag is far less a case for him given most aerials either are quick enough to complete before touching down and/or have less ground recovery frames.

His ground movement though, like everyone else, still is clumsy. I don't think they've hit the right agility balance yet to go with the increased pace of the game. The conditions fit Brawl's a lot better than they do here.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do we really want Crouch canceling back in full force when it's gonna be used to punish people for hitting their opponents? Or be used to pull a Roy and ruin a character because CCing destroys them universally on top of his other issues?

Brawl may have nerfed how good it was and only fringe cases can you CC and hit the opponents but that sounds like bad game design to punish people for landing a hit.

 

[Senario]

Accessibility is relative and if there is no "barrier" then how are they "advanced"? Not trying to be nitpicky, do you have any suggestions? I'm honestly curious.

Thing is they don't have to be advanced techs. Lower landing lag across the board = l cancelling, being able to dash dance is about the closest and best ground mobility you can get at this point, momentum carrying over when running and jumping is accessible because it makes sense. You run and jump in a mario game and you go farther, easy.

My one criticism so far is the ledge in smash 4. Making the second person grab the ledge while another is there regardless of airtime and percent seems so unnecessary when most chars have noticeably better recovery. I always thought that there was no problem with edge guarding since it had its own risks. The current snap of smash 4 ledge combined with backwards grabbing of the ledge should have been fine if you had invincibility on the ledge to guard with. Buff recoveries or buff the ledge. Don't do both. That isn't a compromise at all, it is being excessive towards one end.

It isn't really that hard of a mechanic either. Jump, grab ledge, roll back onto the stage (a single button press). It has the benefit of guarding the edge but not the benefit of throwing out an attack instantly like pressing back and jumping into an air move.

Needless to say, not a big fan of smash4's ledge. It so far goes way too far to one end of the competitive - party spectrum instead of a true middle ground like a certain developer said he would do.

EDIT: Roy was also a frequent user of crouch cancelling as he used down tilt in what little combos he had. Crouch cancelling to me seems like something that could just be mentioned in the manual as there is no way to make it simpler. You press down. Sort of like jump cancelling, execution is at its minimum for these two because they are literally a button press only in certain situations.

 

[DakotaBonez]

7 years ago melee matches were a lot slower, but it evolved into the blazingly fast game that we know today over that 7 year period as players honed their skills and more exploits were discovered.

To call DACUS a glitch and claim that Wavedashing was an intended feature is just not right.
Both of them are exploits of the game's physics that could've slipped past testers or just have been too troublesome to fix especially because they are so difficult to input for the average player.

I believe that Brawl could have been bigger had it not been for tripping. The absence of tripping and the drastically changed ledge game in Smash 4 will most definitely spark alot of interest, who knows what kind of exploits players will find in this game?

But Project M will probably blow smash 4 away, I mean have you seen All Star Versus Mode!?! GET HYPE

 

[Mypantisgone]

Game looks just like brawl but yet it is own thing how?

What about Project M? It's a Brawl mod thay plays like Melee.
And yet, it's on our 15th Smash anniversary banner...

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Not really. I honestly prefer a smaller more intimate community. Compare us with COD for example. It's all moot anyway when you consider smash melee is the most technically demanding smash and also the most popular by far.

I doubt it's popular simply because less people can play it competitively. Melee (or at least from what I understand) is popular because of options. So if we make those options simpler to perform, literally nothing is lost.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I doubt it's popular simply because less people can play it competitively. Melee (or at least from what I understand) is popular because of options. So if we make those options simpler to perform, literally nothing is lost.

But tech shouldn´t be watered down and super easy to do. A fighting game should be fairly technical. I shouldn´t be able to master waveshine in a couple of minutes.

 

[Senario]

But tech shouldn´t be watered down and super easy to do. A fighting game should be fairly technical. I shouldn´t be able to master waveshine in a couple of minutes.

Problem is that waveshining wouldn't be in the game and that there is still execution you need to do just by the fact that the game is a fighting game. Short hopping, fast falling, jump cancels...These all require practice and just because they don't require a ton of execution doesn't mean the game loses relevancy. Spacing and fundamentals also count for something and you definitely cannot make learning those easy. Some other tech can't be watered down either. Back off a ledge then jump and air move to prevent the enemy from getting onto the ledge/attacking faster off the ledge can't be made simpler or watered down but still is tech that is not prohibitively hard and definitely opens up options.

It isn't melee 2.0 we are getting period. Would that be awesome for the competitive community? Yes. But most of the community seems to understand that accessibility for some mechanics like L cancelling is helpful. We aren't getting back wavedashing so settle for dash dancing. There is still plenty of tech and depth if the fundamentals are right. Think shield drops and double air moves in a single jump. And the fact that combos by their very nature require good execution.

 

[FancysaurusRex]

I shouldn´t be able to master waveshine in a couple of minutes.

Why not? I see no good reason for technical barriers at all.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Problem is that waveshining wouldn't be in the game and that there is still execution you need to do just by the fact that the game is a fighting game. Short hopping, fast falling, jump cancels...These all require practice and just because they don't require a ton of execution doesn't mean the game loses relevancy. Spacing and fundamentals also count for something and you definitely cannot make learning those easy. Some other tech can't be watered down either. Back off a ledge then jump and air move to prevent the enemy from getting onto the ledge/attacking faster off the ledge can't be made simpler or watered down but still is tech that is not prohibitively hard and definitely opens up options.

It isn't melee 2.0 we are getting period. Would that be awesome for the competitive community? Yes. But most of the community seems to understand that accessibility for some mechanics like L cancelling is helpful. We aren't getting back wavedashing so settle for dash dancing. There is still plenty of tech and depth if the fundamentals are right. Think shield drops and double air moves in a single jump. And the fact that combos by their very nature require good execution.

True. I know this game won´t be Melee 2.0, but I don´t want a game thats even more accesible than it is now. I mean come on. Its SMASH BROS. I learned how to play SSBM when I was THREE. Its the easiest fighting game there is! What the game needs is options. Options that are meaningful and useful like wavedashing and L-Cancelling.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

True. I know this game won´t be Melee 2.0, but I don´t want a game thats even more accesible than it is now. I mean come on. Its SMASH BROS. I learned how to play SSBM when I was THREE. Its the easiest fighting game there is! What the game needs is options. Options that are meaningful and useful like wavedashing and L-Cancelling.

You were playing Smash bros melee when you were three years old?

Aside from the fact that makes me feel old, now the whiny entitlement mentality makes sense.

 

[victinivcreate1]

You were playing Smash bros melee when you were three years old?

Aside from the fact that makes me feel old, now the whiny entitlement mentality makes sense.

Lol and I'm assuming you're the ornery old guy?

Yes I was. I was a really bad Mewtwo. I spammed shadow ball all day lol. But the guy who I was playing was a user of wavedashing. But I didn't care. I just wanted to have fun with the 2.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

holy **** is this all that smash boards is?
complaining that everything isn't melee?

 

[victinivcreate1]

holy **** is this all that smash boards is?
complaining that everything isn't melee?

Lol do folkss even read entire posts these days? Because if you DID, you'd see that I respect and enjoy competitive Brawl.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

The game isn't out yet...
The game isn't out yet...
THE GAME ISN'T OUT YET!!!
(screams internally)
Also patching.

 

[pizzapie7]

I doubt it's popular simply because less people can play it competitively. Melee (or at least from what I understand) is popular because of options. So if we make those options simpler to perform, literally nothing is lost.

The Gamecube controller is pretty tapped out on a basic command level. There's not much room to work with in adding new moves. But options need inputs to be performed. Take something like wavedashing, ignore the way the physics in Melee functioned and why it worked in the first place. Where do you fit it on the controller with a simpler input? The reason inputs in other fighting games are so wacky from an outsider perspective are because 1. Balancing issues (which Smash doesn't really need) and 2. Because of how many options they have. Try condensing the average Street Fighter command list to a Smash moveset. It'll probably really hard and a whole lot worse. If we're increasing the options, they are going to need to be matching inputs. I don't think there's really any more room on a controller to add them simplistically, so they are going to be some more "difficult" sequence. And in all honesty, x -> r3 isn't that difficult of an input to perform with some practice.

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

Lol do folkss even read entire posts these days? Because if you DID, you'd see that I respect and enjoy competitive Brawl.

i skimmed it

 

[victinivcreate1]

i skimmed it

There's your problem lol

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

holy **** is this all that smash boards is?
complaining that everything isn't melee?

No, it's all that the Wii U General Discussion subforum is. Welcome to Smashboards!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Problem is that waveshining wouldn't be in the game and that there is still execution you need to do just by the fact that the game is a fighting game. Short hopping, fast falling, jump cancels...These all require practice and just because they don't require a ton of execution doesn't mean the game loses relevancy. Spacing and fundamentals also count for something and you definitely cannot make learning those easy. Some other tech can't be watered down either. Back off a ledge then jump and air move to prevent the enemy from getting onto the ledge/attacking faster off the ledge can't be made simpler or watered down but still is tech that is not prohibitively hard and definitely opens up options.

It isn't melee 2.0 we are getting period. Would that be awesome for the competitive community? Yes. But most of the community seems to understand that accessibility for some mechanics like L cancelling is helpful. We aren't getting back wavedashing so settle for dash dancing. There is still plenty of tech and depth if the fundamentals are right. Think shield drops and double air moves in a single jump. And the fact that combos by their very nature require good execution.

I think you are my favorite low post count member right now.

 

[Venks]

But tech shouldn´t be watered down and super easy to do. A fighting game should be fairly technical. I shouldn´t be able to master waveshine in a couple of minutes.

That's your opinion. I think all tech should be easy to learn and not take more than a few minutes to master. Fighting games for me have always been about learning spacing, match ups, and how to analyze player behavior.

I play Street Fighter, but I wouldn't call myself a highly skilled player. I can beat a lot of players with higher technical abilities than myself because I am better at reading them and have greater match up knowledge. But against highly skilled players I will always be at a severe disadvantage due to not being able to consistently link one-frame combos and Focus Attack Dash Cancel reliably. I can win some matches, but it's usually three out of ten against these players. Their damage output and safe options are just much better than my own due to their ability to press buttons better than I can.

Then we have Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 which has incredibly easy wave dashing and combos primarily consisting of chaining rather than linking. The same players I lose to 3-7 in Street Fighter I can destroy 9-1 in Ultimate Marvel. I've won about $3,000 from participating in local tournaments in this game due to how accessible it is. Now my greater match up knowledge and player analyzing skills actually pay off.

Melee is a fun game and I enjoy playing it with friends, but it's not something I'd ever try to play competitively. I've spent days in the training room, hours at a time in Street Fighter trying to master one-frame links. Technical games are just not my forte'. I'd rather see Smash 4 with a small skill ceiling, but lots of depth due to how the players approach the game.

 

[Senario]

True. I know this game won´t be Melee 2.0, but I don´t want a game thats even more accesible than it is now. I mean come on. Its SMASH BROS. I learned how to play SSBM when I was THREE. Its the easiest fighting game there is! What the game needs is options. Options that are meaningful and useful like wavedashing and L-Cancelling.

There are plenty of options. I am a longtime melee player as well but there are good reasons I think at the very least those two mechanics are ok to be simplified. Game Design wise...is there any interesting decisions you make as to whether or not you L cancel/brawl auto cancel? No there isn't. If you can do it you do it. There is no reason an extra input needs to be there if the end result is the same. Wavedashing has interesting choices but by its very nature the mechanic is impossible due to the lack of directional air dodge, trading it out for fluid dash mechanics which are easy to lean but difficult to use properly is a good compromise. I understand that tech skill is important to you but the idea here is to bridge the gap between competitive and regular players. Competitive players get the depth they want and regular players have the tools to learn to get better if they put in time and effort. This doesn't mean there is no input skill, shield dropping is still in the game and definitely is a very skilled thing you can learn to do, I know I can't do it consistently enough to actually use it. Same with jump cancel for a short hop into a fast fall with an air move. And of course general combos require inputs Don't tell me that double up air into knee isn't skillful as captain falcon.

That said, it doesn't help competitive play argument by asking for things that many players speak out against. There are perfectly fine substitutes for the mechanics that don't have to shut out players who may eventually want to get better. Middle ground means middle ground, you make compromises that will make both sides of the debate happy. As much as some people don't get this nowadays...which sadly includes Sakurai imo possibly due to stubbornness. Props to Nintendo for listening and doing their homework on the community. They receive an A from me when it concerns their current attitude towards competitive play.

Oh on my post count...I kinda lurk on and off on smash boards due to other more pressing matters but I do love playing the game in general.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

But tech shouldn´t be watered down and super easy to do. A fighting game should be fairly technical. I shouldn´t be able to master waveshine in a couple of minutes.

In a game like Smash Brothers? Yes. Yes it should be easy to do. Because EVERY OTHER MOVE IN THE GAME IS EASY! If you told me that a move like Wavedashing (the execution and everything) was in a game like BlazBlue, I wouldn't have it changed a bit. Every other aspect of the game is more complicated, tech wise. Quarter Circles, Full Circles, ect. It's a very tech heavy game with a lot of options that aren't easy. When someone like myself picks up BlazBlue, I know EXACTLY what I'm getting into, and asking for that game to be easier does make me a bit self-entitled in that instance.

But Smash Brothers?

Every non-AT move in the game is easy to perform. No move besides player found glitches or exploits or whatever word you want to use for those moves are as easy as a button and a direction. Done. That's it.

And I've noticed only competitive people seem to think that Wavedashing is "simple" and "easy." But compare it to every other move in the game! I'm sorry, but to me, I believe that one of Smash Bros. greatest strengths is its accessibility and Wavedashing or other more complicated techniques such as that completely fly in the face of that accessibility.

Most importantly, why are tech barriers a good thing? In what situation is making sure that less people being able to compete a good thing? Maybe it's because I'm not as hardcore as some people on this site, but to me, supporting tech barriers is literally just supporting keeping people at a lower level simply so you can have an advantage. To me, there is literally nothing lost by removing technical barriers. The mental barriers will always be there. Assuming they kept Wavedashing in Sm4sh, but then made it as easy to perform as every other move, I would still not master it instantly because I would have to relearn the game with that extra option in mind. The only difference is I wouldn't have to struggle to perform the Wavedash, the challenge being less in the execution, but in the application of the technique, which I personally thing is far more important.

EDIT: @ pizzapie7 : As far as controls go, there are two redundant Shield buttons and two redundant jump buttons. There are at LEAST two buttons that could be remapped into something else. Barring that, I'm fairly certain there are better ways to perform the techniques besides some arcane and annoying to perform input.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Most importantly, why are tech barriers a good thing? In what situation is making sure that less people being able to compete a good thing? Maybe it's because I'm not as hardcore as some people on this site, but to me, supporting tech barriers is literally just supporting keeping people at a lower level simply so you can have an advantage. To me, there is literally nothing lost by removing technical barriers. The mental barriers will always be there. Assuming they kept Wavedashing in Sm4sh, but then made it as easy to perform as every other move, I would still not master it instantly because I would have to relearn the game with that extra option in mind. The only difference is I wouldn't have to struggle to perform the Wavedash, the challenge being less in the execution, but in the application of the technique, which I personally think is far more important.

I think you answered your own question, to some degree. Even without difficult actions to perform that increase a player's repertoire, new players still lack the experience and cerebral play that the already-established players have. At least "advanced techniques/technology" give these players something to practice in their downtime, as opposed to matchup knowledge/experience and understanding of player mentality which can only really be increased by actually playing against real opponents.

This might be a big assumption to make of new players, but I feel like newbies will still get discouraged even if they're crushed by someone who doesn't use ATs. I feel as though ATs are a clear goal in some ways. That feeling of "oooh how did you do that? I WANT that!" is an easy draw for improvement rather than someone being completely unsure of how to get better in small ways (which from what I've observed, generally comes later). Fine-tuning those fundamentals isn't as easy as just doing new things.

I'm still in support of making the game more accessible though

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I think you answered your own question, to some degree. Even without difficult actions to perform that increase a player's repertoire, new players still lack the experience and cerebral play that the already-established players have. At least "advanced techniques/technology" give these players something to practice in their downtime, as opposed to matchup knowledge/experience and understanding of player mentality which can only really be increased by actually playing against real opponents.

This might be a big assumption to make of new players, but I feel like newbies will still get discouraged even if they're crushed by someone who doesn't use ATs. I feel as though ATs are a clear goal in some ways. That feeling of "oooh how did you do that? I WANT that!" is an easy draw for improvement rather than someone being completely unsure of how to get better in small ways (which from what I've observed, generally comes later). Fine-tuning those fundamentals isn't as easy as just doing new things.

I'm still in support of making the game more accessible though

I can kinda see where you're coming from. My only issue with that though, is that it's a false goal. Sure, they want to learn the AT, but eventually they're still going to have to learn how to use it. All the tech skill in the world isn't going to make up for application. The only thing that difficult to perform techs do is just increase the amount of time needed to practice in order to make a competent player. By making the tech more simpler to perform, you don't remove the difficulty of learning the mindgames and the application of the techniques, you just remove the unneeded extra time spent trying to perform said technique consistently.

 

[victinivcreate1]

There are plenty of options. I am a longtime melee player as well but there are good reasons I think at the very least those two mechanics are ok to be simplified. Game Design wise...is there any interesting decisions you make as to whether or not you L cancel/brawl auto cancel? No there isn't. If you can do it you do it. There is no reason an extra input needs to be there if the end result is the same. Wavedashing has interesting choices but by its very nature the mechanic is impossible due to the lack of directional air dodge, trading it out for fluid dash mechanics which are easy to lean but difficult to use properly is a good compromise. I understand that tech skill is important to you but the idea here is to bridge the gap between competitive and regular players. Competitive players get the depth they want and regular players have the tools to learn to get better if they put in time and effort. This doesn't mean there is no input skill, shield dropping is still in the game and definitely is a very skilled thing you can learn to do, I know I can't do it consistently enough to actually use it. Same with jump cancel for a short hop into a fast fall with an air move. And of course general combos require inputs Don't tell me that double up air into knee isn't skillful as captain falcon.

That said, it doesn't help competitive play argument by asking for things that many players speak out against. There are perfectly fine substitutes for the mechanics that don't have to shut out players who may eventually want to get better. Middle ground means middle ground, you make compromises that will make both sides of the debate happy. As much as some people don't get this nowadays...which sadly includes Sakurai imo possibly due to stubbornness. Props to Nintendo for listening and doing their homework on the community. They receive an A from me when it concerns their current attitude towards competitive play.

Oh on my post count...I kinda lurk on and off on smash boards due to other more pressing matters but I do love playing the game in general.

I KNOW I´m not the only one who is highly impressed every time you post on the matter of whether Smash4 should have a tech skill ceiling or not.

That's your opinion. I think all tech should be easy to learn and not take more than a few minutes to master. Fighting games for me have always been about learning spacing, match ups, and how to analyze player behavior.

I play Street Fighter, but I wouldn't call myself a highly skilled player. I can beat a lot of players with higher technical abilities than myself because I am better at reading them and have greater match up knowledge. But against highly skilled players I will always be at a severe disadvantage due to not being able to consistently link one-frame combos and Focus Attack Dash Cancel reliably. I can win some matches, but it's usually three out of ten against these players. Their damage output and safe options are just much better than my own due to their ability to press buttons better than I can.

Then we have Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 which has incredibly easy wave dashing and combos primarily consisting of chaining rather than linking. The same players I lose to 3-7 in Street Fighter I can destroy 9-1 in Ultimate Marvel. I've won about $3,000 from participating in local tournaments in this game due to how accessible it is. Now my greater match up knowledge and player analyzing skills actually pay off.

Melee is a fun game and I enjoy playing it with friends, but it's not something I'd ever try to play competitively. I've spent days in the training room, hours at a time in Street Fighter trying to master one-frame links. Technical games are just not my forte'. I'd rather see Smash 4 with a small skill ceiling, but lots of depth due to how the players approach the game.

In a game like Smash, thats already accessible, new players should not be going even with SilentWolf in terms of raw technical ability after 2 minutes. Video games are a test to your mechanical and mental skill. When one of those elements are removed, the game is essentially dumbed down. That being said, I´m not fond of BlazBlue (only technical fighter I like is Soul Calibur cuz I grew up on it), to me its too technical, but I feel that if I actually sat down for 2 hours and tried to do the combos, I could do it, and I´d feel rewarded for doing it. If tech skill is easy to do, the sense of reward is gone. If people are complaining because they saw Dark do all of these crazy invisible shines, and they can´t do it, this is what you do: Training mode, 1/4 speed. Practice. Then move speed to 1/2, then 2/3, then 1. Thats how I learned to invisi-Shine. I can´t do it consistently, but I can do it. If Melee Fox was all of a sudden a really easy to play character, I hope you realize that we´d never see any character variety. Every game has a best character, and this character usually has a high technical ceiling. If ICs were easy to play, then you would never hear MK (a considerably less technical character) being called broken. If Diddy was easy to play, OMG. If Melee Fox/Falco were easy to play, every match would be ditto matches.

tldr-If a game has no technical capacity, then there is no sense of reward when you practice. And only the most technical characters would see play in tourney. And everyone would then complain about lack of character variety. Then the PMBR would save us by making every character tourney viable.

edit: if so called comeptitive players are complaining about tech being hard, they're bad and don't have the will to become greats. Greats don't complain. They work with what they have.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

In a game like Smash, thats already accessible, new players should not be going even with SilentWolf in terms of raw technical ability after 2 minutes. Video games are a test to your mechanical and mental skill. When one of those elements are removed, the game is essentially dumbed down. That being said, I´m not fond of BlazBlue (only technical fighter I like is Soul Calibur cuz I grew up on it), to me its too technical, but I feel that if I actually sat down for 2 hours and tried to do the combos, I could do it, and I´d feel rewarded for doing it. If tech skill is easy to do, the sense of reward is gone. If people are complaining because they saw Dark do all of these crazy invisible shines, and they can´t do it, this is what you do: Training mode, 1/4 speed. Practice. Then move speed to 1/2, then 2/3, then 1. Thats how I learned to invisi-Shine. I can´t do it consistently, but I can do it. If Melee Fox was all of a sudden a really easy to play character, I hope you realize that we´d never see any character variety. Every game has a best character, and this character usually has a high technical ceiling. If ICs were easy to play, then you would never hear MK (a considerably less technical character) being called broken. If Diddy was easy to play, OMG. If Melee Fox/Falco were easy to play, every match would be ditto matches.

tldr-If a game has no technical capacity, then there is no sense of reward when you practice. And only the most technical characters would see play in tourney. And everyone would then complain about lack of character variety. Then the PMBR would save us by making every character tourney viable.
edit: if so called comeptitive players are complaining about tech being hard, they're bad and don't have the will to become greats. Greats don't complain. They work with what they have.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see things your way. There is a reward when you practice. Simply because you don't turn your fingers into knots doesn't make a game "dumbed down." I've said it multiple times, the mental aspect is still there, and in many cases, is more difficult than even the tech skill.

To me, people who support "tech barriers," come across as simply wanting a game to be difficult for the sake of difficulty, and in that case, go play Dark Souls, or I Wanna Be The Guy or something along those lines. Either that, or as I've suspected in the past, people who support, "tech barriers," just want some sort of advantage because they have far more free time to dump into the game, and wouldn't like it if they were no longer special for being able to consistently perform unneeded and unnecessary inputs.

Also, your quote of, "Only the most technical characters would see play in tourneys." That is incredibly false. Unless you enjoy difficulty for the sake of difficulty, or that character simply is broken due to that tech skill, people will choose who they want. A game doesn't need to be hard simply so people like you can feel superior when they've dumped X hours/weeks/months into the game. Difficulty shouldn't have to come from the manual input.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I, for one, support improved rolling. It will be a viable movement option that's easy to perform and has a lot of applications. And most importantly, it's explained within the game.

I can wavedash with the rest of them, but I don't exactly LIKE having carpal tunnel...

edit: if so called comeptitive players are complaining about tech being hard, they're bad and don't have the will to become greats. Greats don't complain. They work with what they have.

...sweet ****ing blood, tell me you didn't just say that. Do you not want the scene to be seen as anything other than circlejerking elitist *****?

Seriously, OP, you're really making the competitive fandom look bad.