Frame Count - Flip Kick Frame Trap

[Dr. Tuen]

INTRODUCTION​

Hello all! Welcome to what is hopefully going to become a series or a compilation thread... whichever is appropriate. The goal is to put numbers to some assumptions or feelings that we have about various capabilities of Zero Suit Samus. First up: the Flip Kick Frame Trap!

METHODS​

Seems funny to have a methods section here, but I believe it to be an important point of consistency in my work.

This analysis involves the use of technical move or combination descriptions (REF 1, for Flip Kick Frame Trap) and the compiled ZSS frame data (REF 2). The frame data is put on a chronological timeline for assessment and a description of the move, combination, or frame trap is interpreted and presented for discussion.

RESULTS​

COLOR KEY
Yellow - Start up frames
Red (ZSS) - Hitbox frames
Red (FOE) - Vulnerability Fraems
BLUE (FOE) - Invulnerability Frames

Note - I used ZSS' air dodge for this example. Others net similar results. There are also three air dodge timings presented here. The first line represents air dodging on the first frame the flip jump can occur. Some may wish to avoid being soft-spiked by that at high percent and may time an early air dodge. The second air dodge example is for avoiding the earliest kick frame. The last air dodge example demonstrates a late air dodge. These are deonoted "JUMP DODGE," "KICK DODGE," and "LATE DODGE" respectively.

A - Flip Kick startup Frames
B - Frame 19 and onward, the kick or the flip jump can be triggered
C - Possible hitbox frames for flip kick (reference: the duration of the kick is 5 frames)
D - Startup Frames for Bair ... NOTE! Since the kick can be activated on frame 41 and comes out 9 frames later... these can be hitbox frames for flip kick too!
E - Hitbox frames for Bair. ... NOTE! These can be delayed at the player's discretion!

DISCUSSION​

This frame trap is really good. It requires some interpretation by the player, but otherwise, it is very, very good. As a note, this assumes you've likely put your foe off-stage.

Jump Dodge
This is the earliest dodge presented in the data presentation above. Likely fearing any interaction with the flip kick, your opponent dodges away. Provided they do not trigger the jump early (in which case, you DI away to safety), you get a kick for free. This is a bit tricky though, because you must time that kick very well. You're aiming for a 5 frame vulnerability window. You may also have to kick in either direction depending on the foe's DI and the difference between your falling speeds.

Kick Dodge
If your opponent dodges away from the earliest kicking frame, you can execute a late kick (kick activated on frame 43-49) to catch them. This comes with the same caveats as the Jump Dodge timing... an opponent's DI and fall speed can effect the success of this hit.

Late Dodge
This is the most potent of the bunch. A late dodge gives you the greatest thing you could ask for: freedom to adjust your timing and positioning. When your opponent dodges away late, fearing some sort of long distance follow up from a Nair for example, you get a number of frames to jump/fast fall and position your back air for the hit. This may need to be adjusted to uair or nair depending on if your opponent crosses you up or not. Depending on the frequency of the hits (8 hits in 23 frames?) Boost Kick can also be a follow up option that could more reliably catch those 5 air dodge vulnerability frames. That possibility will be updated as knowledge regarding special moves improves.

Hypothesis - Ledge Cancel Kick to Fair/Bair
The data above lends itself to an interesting variant of this frame trap. Ledge canceled kick to a follow up. This presents both threats to your opponent, forcing them to get hit by one in the case of perfect play. In the Hitbox Visualization Thread (REF 3), it is shown that the attack kick of flip kick can very credibly threaten the "snap back" vulnerability frame that is present in low recoveries. Threatening this to an opponent that still has a second jump may force an airdodge... which ZSS could naturally follow with an edge cancel that leads to an aerial placed at the end of their air dodge. I have only considered this within the span of writing this thread, so consider this strictly hypothetical and discuss it in the comments to sort out its viability.

Error
There is always room for error. This analysis has been completely hypothetical, since I don't have a lot of hands-on time right now. I'm defending a PhD in 4 months and that means I probably shouldn't be doing the analysis I already do, ha ha. But alas, this is too fun.

That said, sources of error all lie in DI and fall speed. I would hypothesize that more similar fall speed can assist in the functionality of this frame trap. Being higher up also makes the frame trap safer, since you can fast fall without risk of death (so long as you've saved your second jump). If you fall faster than your foe, that yields even better odds if you are working with a late dodge since you can adjust your next jump to back air at will.

CONCLUSIONS​

This frame trap, at least hypothetically, looks really awesome. I believe it warrants more discussion and investigation as a community. Technically it requires no set up other than an opponent off the ledge, or one that is in the air and scared of your follow ups. Realistically, hitting a Nair, Bair, or throw first would be a helpful start up.

I hope this opens the door to other frame trap discussions, such as the viability of following up paralyzer shots on or off an opponent's shield. Or maybe, something new we have never considered.

Onwards and upwards, everyone!

REFERENCES​

1. @ DeLux - Flip Kick Frame Trap Comment - Zero Suit Samus- Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread
2. @ Dr. Tuen et al. - ZSS Frame Data - http://smashboards.com/threads/zero-suit-samus-frame-data-compilation-misc-page-update.401590/
3. @ Dr. Tuen - ZSS Spacing Visualization - http://smashboards.com/threads/the-final-frontier-a-zss-spacing-visualization-update-down-b.401184/

 

[DeLux]

This thread is ****ing breathtaking.

 

[BatShark]

Nairo got a kill with ledge cancelled flip kick into Fair in his most recent set with False, actually, IIRC.

Edit - Might have been his games vs. ESAM's Pika, actually, I can go back and check.

 

[DeLux]

I also thoroughly enjoy my referenced post is me talking in complete KSM Smash Commentary and Wii U ZSS jargon LOL

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Some rough testing shows that the ledge cancel frame trap could be real legitimate. Though it is noted that I'm pretty bad at ledge cancelling the flip kick... Also! I re-tested a ledge cancelled flip kick to make sure it could still hit as low as I measured in the visualization thread, and the spacing still holds. Though I'm not sure if a ledge cancelled flip kick could hit more "inside" the stage, a property which'd be useful for hitting foes that slide up slanted edges like Smashville.

Granted... this all only works if you threaten the capability of hitting the "snap back" vulnerability frame to start forcing air dodges. But in the process of showing the threat, you'll probably get some good spikes in there :-p.

@ DeLux , your responses to these threads are the best!

 

[BatShark]

Nairo got a kill with ledge cancelled flip kick into Fair in his most recent set with False, actually, IIRC.

Edit - Might have been his games vs. ESAM's Pika, actually, I can go back and check.

Yeah it was the ESAM games. A bit different than I recall, was actually cancelled off the side BF platforms, and not a trap vs. air dodge, so not quite the precise utility you were discussing.

But since I brought it up, here it was anyhow:

Spoiler

 

[DeLux]

Okay, I don't know if this was a one time game glitching thing or actually viable to repeat, but I hit someone like almost the exact spacing of hitting the platform AND the right time for a cancel. So what happened was I was able to combo Flip Kick non-spike followed by a ledge cancel (since the game didn't do the bounce off the opponent animation) to flip kick spike for a kill. They rage quit out so I couldn't save replay and I tried to replicate it like 100 times and can't get it to work again (ie I always get the bounce off animation from a flip kick hit confirm).

For reference it was on BF on Mario at like 25% on the right side

Maybe a frame perfect thing? Maybe an IGU perfect thing? Maybe a glitch? not sure but was super ****ing broken lol

 

[David Viran]

Okay, I don't know if this was a one time game glitching thing or actually viable to repeat, but I hit someone like almost the exact spacing of hitting the platform AND the right time for a cancel. So what happened was I was able to combo Flip Kick non-spike followed by a ledge cancel (since the game didn't do the bounce off the opponent animation) to flip kick spike for a kill. They rage quit out so I couldn't save replay and I tried to replicate it like 100 times and can't get it to work again (ie I always get the bounce off animation from a flip kick hit confirm).

For reference it was on BF on Mario at like 25% on the right side

Maybe a frame perfect thing? Maybe an IGU perfect thing? Maybe a glitch? not sure but was super ****ing broken lol

@ Shaya was talking about apparantly you can frame cancel the kick. Maybe that's what happened.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Okay, I don't know if this was a one time game glitching thing or actually viable to repeat, but I hit someone like almost the exact spacing of hitting the platform AND the right time for a cancel. So what happened was I was able to combo Flip Kick non-spike followed by a ledge cancel (since the game didn't do the bounce off the opponent animation) to flip kick spike for a kill. They rage quit out so I couldn't save replay and I tried to replicate it like 100 times and can't get it to work again (ie I always get the bounce off animation from a flip kick hit confirm).

For reference it was on BF on Mario at like 25% on the right side

Maybe a frame perfect thing? Maybe an IGU perfect thing? Maybe a glitch? not sure but was super ****ing broken lol

Like...

[flip] --> [weak kick] --> [ledge cancel, no bounce] --> [strong hit]

Am I interpreting this correctly in that there is no second flip kick? Or are you flip kicking a second time, resulting in...

[flip] --> [weak kick] --> [ledge cancel, no bounce] --> [flip] --> [strong hit]

 

[DeLux]

The latter

Flip Jump -> Kick out non spike hitbox -> ledge cancel no bounce -> flip jump -> flip kick spike

 

[Dr. Tuen]

The latter

Flip Jump -> Kick out non spike hitbox -> ledge cancel no bounce -> flip jump -> flip kick spike

When I next get some experimentation time, I'll see what I can do. Sounds pretty interesting!

 

[Emblem Lord]

This thread...pleases Emblem Lord.

Also from what move are you doing the frame trap? What set-up? From a throw, a fair, etc?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

This thread...pleases Emblem Lord.

Also from what move are you doing the frame trap? What set-up? From a throw, a fair, etc?

It can be any of those, or none of those. If they are over the edge for any reason, caused by you or not, you can just flip jump at them to start the trap. If you react right, you can determine that you'll get the kick and just... kick them. If they air dodge, you have the frame data to say that you'll either get a free kick at the very very end of the flip jump or get a back air for free.

The latter

Flip Jump -> Kick out non spike hitbox -> ledge cancel no bounce -> flip jump -> flip kick spike

So... I just spent an hour doing that and got no results. I was hoping it was going to be something like the frame sync (I swear that's a better name for it!), but that was only ever done on shield, right?

I'm not sure if this is known or not, but on the subject of cancelling flip jumps, I seem to be able to do inside kick cancels on a consistent basis too. This tends to be accomplished by flip jumping, holding toward the jump direction for an amount of time, releasing the control stick, and kicking at the right spacing. So if you're at the center of battlefield, cancelling off the right platform, it would be... [down b] --> [hold right] --> [release to neutral] --> [A, for a left kick] --> [cancel]

And since this is a one-stop-shop for flip kick related stuff... anyone know why nair is commonly buffered out of a flip kick cancel even if I press A once?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Maybe buffering out of flip kick ignores directional input because you can still change your position while flip kicking.
I had the same happen to me and was wondering too.

 

[Shaya]

It's likely just the terrible buffering system (who's idea was it to have a PRIORITY system for buffering? absolutely absurd). I think the same thing can happen if you start an aerial that has a pre-hitbox auto cancel into the ground and you buffer a smash attack.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Fun fact: you can't buffer a DA with left stick + attack (will end up being a smash) but you can buffer one with left stick + c stick.

 

[Shaya]

I've been only control stick + c sticking (down) for dash attacks since Brawl, was the only way it could be reliably buffered I believe.

 

[pichuthedk]

I've been only control stick + c sticking (down) for dash attacks since Brawl, was the only way it could be reliably buffered I believe.

I heard that Daz Lock was sexy xD. A shame I never quite mastered when since I was a yungin sprouting my branches looking for love and sunshine...errr man I kinda miss her dash attack lock D;.

 

[NickRiddle]

Brawl dash-attack and d-smash plz

 

[Shaya]

But McTiddle, anti-air disjointed dash attacks!

 

[NickRiddle]

But McTiddle, anti-air disjointed dash attacks!

But Homura, Dazlock