Fox vs. Yoshi Matchup Thread

[Mumbo]

Fox McCloud
This will be the first of a series of threads, each dedicated to a single matchup, covering all 41(+) matchups. These threads are going to be a collaboration, so PLEASE give me your thoughts and opinions. Post your videos here, even if you lose. Post your preferred stages, even if people think otherwise. Post your tips, even if you think you aren't the best player.
I. Videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6bZitfE0wk (games 1 & 5) Oven vs Colum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JFD8-Dukow Epic Yoshi vs FrootLoop [UFGTX]
http://youtu.be/CRgL6ZfWAQ4?t=4m41s (game 2) Spire_Fan vs Frizz


II. Overview:
Fox is a fast character with a lot of pressure potential and early kills. Here, we discuss key points and basics of the matchup, we will go into analysis later on. Firefox = Fox's Up special/recovery; Illusion/Phantom = Fox's side special; Shine/Reflector = Fox's down special.

Fox's Strengths:

• Extremely Fast
• Strong Vertical Kill power in UpSmash and UpAir
• Very fast mental game with a lot of pressure and maneuverability
• Strong Crouch Cancel game

Fox's Weaknesses:

• Linear recovery is easily edge-guarded
• Light Fastfaller, nearly ideal combo weight
• Perfect height and very long hitstun animation for maximum punish
• Tech level required to play Fox consistently is very high, this ******* the mental game of the player if it's not second nature

Key Points:

• Yoshi cannot be shinespiked out of his jump armor
• Shine does not knock Yoshi down
• Gimping fox is almost laughably simple either by punishing a missed sweetspot or going offstage to kill with anything you want
• Yoshi's Nair eats each of Firefox and Illusion, and knocks Fox back a reasonable amount, even at low percents
• Egg Lay is fast enough and long enough to be used safely on a dash dancing Fox
• Grabbing is incredibly deadly to fox

III. Matchup Analysis:
Neutral Game:

• Getting a grab is the most important thing Yoshi wants to do in this matchup as they can lead to 0-to-deaths, huge damage, and edgeguards
• Pay attention to when Fox lands and when he uses his double jump and is forced to land (try to grab him before he hits the ground)
• Jabs are huge at shrugging off pressure, if he SHFFL Nairs then shield and roll past him and jab OoS.
• Fair to uptilt
• Fox's Shorthop Nair and Shorthop Bair outprioritize eggroll
  • Breversing or wavebouncing eggroll can be good to punish if they're approaching
  • Rolling at fox can be dangerous if done in a straight line, try rolling off platforms

Comboing/Punishing Fox:

• UpThrow ChainGrab ~ 20-60%
• DJC UpAir -> regrab; UpTilt -> regrab; UpSmash -> regrab at low percents
• DownThrow -> DownSmash to edgeguard at medium percents or kill at high percents
• Eggroll is great for techchasing as it is fast, you can change direction on reaction, and it pops Fox off the ground
• Upthrow -> upsmash is free until over 100% but fox should be dead somewhere around there. Throw eggs to make him think about where/how to come back down
• Dtilt is a good way to push him off stage
• Death combo: Downthrow -> Uptilt -> / jab reset -> grab / or / standing grab / or / tech chase dash/pivot grab / -> upthrow -> uptilt -> dash attack -> eggrthow to cover high recovery -> cover phantom to ledge with run-off rising Nair -> eggroll back to stage. (gif/video plz)

Escaping Fox's Pressure:

• Yoshi can Nair out of Upthrow -> Upair until ~50%
• Fox's Throws:
  • Upthrow: Sets up for Upair, DI behind fox to make the follow up as hard as possible
  • Downthrow: Mix up DI and techrolls. Often times Fox will downthrow and read the roll for an Upsmash
  • Backthrow:
  • Forwardthrow:
• If you shield a Dair, roll the moment the Fox L-cancels to avoid taking pressure from a shine
• Hop slightly higher than fox and Nair him in the face above his Nair hitbox
• Know when to roll and where to roll when shine pressure is happening
• Smash DI
  • Smash DI Upthrow -> Upair by smashing both sticks up when Fox upairs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4zuzBaaNu8)
  • SDI Upsmash straight down, try to tech it
• Crouch Cancel Dtilt

Edgeguarding Fox:

• DownTilt and Downsmash can beat Fox trying to sweetspot the ledge
• A well timed rising Nair eats each of Firefox and Fox's SideB, and it knocks Fox back enough to repeat or kill, even at low percents
• Placing an egg at the ledge when he's even with it for a phantom will deter him from using phantom or force him to use it early (this precision takes some practice)
• Catching him without a jump means you can run off stage and rising Fair him as he panic recovers. Don't be afraid to trade with firefox because it sends you up.

Recovering against Fox:

• Do not put an aerial out too hastily or Fox can shinespike or Backair you
• Play games with him, make him think you're recovering high, then FF to the ledge
• B-reversing and wavebounceing eggroll will augment your movement enough to trick him
• Going for ledge is relatively safe as long as the fox isn't actively trying to footstool you

Putting it all together:

• Fox has a great weight for Yoshi to get lengthy combos and even nastier kills. Spacing fox out and taking control of the stage is very easy because of Dtilt and Jabs. A key to early neutral game with fox is after anything you approach him with, being eggroll, fair, dair, or nair... Do an uptilt (or multiple). Fair to Uptilt is very fast if you Lcancel correctly. It can make it so you don't get grabbed or cover anything fox can do out of shield. if/when you get that uptilt, if fox is at low % it will knock him down without a chance to tech. At this point you get a free jab reset to Dsmash or grab or WHATEVER you feel like. If he's at higher percents, you can chase his DI with an egg, or you can get a free dash attack or you can Nair. Fox's hitstun allows you plenty of time to think about what you want to do.
• Also, don't make DJC upairs an automatic. Yes they can be effective, yes they are fun and stylish, but they are NOT safe and they are NOT the best consistent option (try it if you want but it's not necessary). Getting a regrab or pushing fox off stage are more important priorities than juggling him.
• When fox combos you, don't panic. I can't stress this enough in any matchup, You can't panic or else you will die because of mistakes. Fox CAN'T kill you unless he gets an upair, an upsmash, a backair at high percents, or a fsmash at high percents. When you get to the percent where you'll die from an Upsmash, the fox will be fishing for it and/or a grab to a chillin (which you can DI away and armor through). This is when you Bait him and get free grabs. He WILL challenge eggroll with Upsmash. It will clank if you are close or at max damage, then you dtilt him away or shield or wavedash back. If he continues to want to challenge eggroll, stop it early and get your free grab when he whiffs. When the fox want's to CC upsmash, you can just fair to uptilt for free because his only options are to spotdodge or shield or try to tank it. All of these options lead him to getting an uptilt to the face and heavy punish after. For all else, space him correctly and only take calculated risks when you're at death percent.
• The Death Combo: When you get the grab, the combo relies on you as the Yoshi to look at where you are on the stage, what kind of game the fox plays (be it heavy on mental or heavy on tech) and how long the fox has been playing (you can tell this when you're an experienced player). The downthrow to uptilt is guaranteed but after that you have to cover the options. If the fox just falls, you get a free jab reset to regrab, no brains required. If he techs and rolls towards the ledge, you have to be fast enough to see the tech and get the dash grab before he sidesteps, (or dash to wavedash in place at dash grab distance to bait his sidestep then standing grab for free <- this is actually the more effective option). If he techs in place, you can standing grab and this will grab him even if he buffers a sidestep. and if he techs behind you, you can dash in the original direction you were facing and pivot grab him. Now you Upthrow him. He will more than likely DI away from you now, so you can quickly uptilt him or you can dash attack to get him off stage. then you throw a quick egg to cover the high phantom option and go out to cover the phantom to ledge option. With his DI, a dash attack will send him almost completely horizontal, so most foxes will wait a second to get low enough then jump to be even with the ledge and phantom to it. If you're fast enough, you can forget about the eggthrow and just go out to catch his jump. There are a lot of factors at play in this combo and It's not guaranteed by really any means, but if you're good enough, all it requires is quick and consistent option coverage.

IV. Stages
Ultimately, Stage striking, banning, and Counterpicking comes down to personal preference. People will also have conflicting opinions as to which stages are better or worse for certain matchups. Use this as a rough baseline, understand the reasons why each stage may help hurt a particular character, and learn what your opponent might want to ban/counterpick against you. Different Tournaments use different stage lists with different sets of starters and different amounts of stage bans.
Counterpicks:

• Final Destination
  • +++ Counterpick
  • + It's harder for Fox to camp you without platforms
  • + Grab combos, Juggling, and 0-to-deaths are much more effective without platforms as Fox has no escape
• Dreamland
  • +++ Counterpick
  • + Yoshi lives to stupidly high %
  • + I mean stupidly high %
  • + Platforms are great for Yoshi's mobility
  • - Fox has a lot of room to run around
  • - Fox has platforms to camp
• Green Hill Zone
  • ++ Counterpick
  • + Smaller FD with a platform that doesn't interfere too much
  • + Platform helps Yoshi's movement
• Fountain of Dreams
  • ++ Counterpick
  • + High Ceiling helps against Fox's Vertical Kills
  • + Platforms sometimes get out of the way allowing Yoshi to combo Fox like it's Final D
  • - Fox can ride the walls with his firefox
• Wario Ware
  • + Counterpick

• Battlefield
  • + Counterpick

• Dracula's Castle
  • + Counterpick
  • + Yoshi lives to stupidly high %
  • + Platforms sometimes get out of the way allowing Yoshi to combo Fox like it's Final D
  • - Fox has a lot of room to run around

Even:

• Pokemon Stadium 2
  • - Strike
  • - Platforms give Fox an escape from 0 to deaths
  • + Platforms give Yoshi free dairs for tons of damage
  • + Fox cannot ride the side of the stage with his Firefox
  • - Relatively low ceiling

• Yoshi's Story
  • - Strike
  • - Low ceiling means early Kills for Fox
  • + Platforms are great for Yoshi's mobility

• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
  • + High Ceiling
  • - This stage is annoying
  • - The terrain is annoying
  • - The tilting platform is annoying
  • - The shy guys are annoying
  • - The Randall platforms are annoying and help Fox much more than Yoshi

• Skyworld
  • - The Platforms are difficult to see
  • - The Platforms extending over the edge give Fox more recovery options

• Smashville
  • - Strike; Ban, maybe?
  • - The platform can get Fox out of combo's and it's difficult to follow up on because it moves
  • - The platform can give Fox extra recovery options and helps him more than it does Yoshi
  • + Fox cannot ride the stage with his Firefox
  • + Platform can get out of the way allowing Yoshi to combo Fox like it's Final D

BAN:

• Lylat Cruise
  • - Ban
  • - Terrain hurts Yoshi
  • - Fox has a real easy time escaping combos
  • + Fox cannot ride the wall with his Firefox
• Pokemon Stadium 1
  • - Ban (if legal)
  • - Transformations help Fox
  • - Low Ceiling

???:

• Distant Planet
  • Rarely Legal
• Metal Cavern
  • Rarely Legal

V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:

• Panic when getting pressured
• Be afraid to go out on fox at any time
• Tunnel vision into trying to pull off huge combos
• Underestimate Fox's Upsmash kill potential when you are at high %
• Underestimate your kill potential when fox is above 50%

Do:

• Grab
• Know your opponent and their habits in shining, pressure, and desperation to kill
• Know how much thought your opponent has to put into tech skill
• Know how you can manipulate their thought process
• Place eggthrows with the utmost accuracey
• Pressure fox into sweet spotting the ledge
• Punish anything you can with Fairs
• Bait anything you can for grabs
• Play cool, calculated and collected
• Keep track of fox's jumps
• Go for upsmash out of grab when you're unsure of what kind of combo you could pull off

Tricks:

• Baiting things with eggroll is effective
• Eggroll into back of shield -> dash -> pivot grab
• If fox ever dash attacks you past your shield or lands behind you with Nair, do an Out of Shield Backair; Backair carries fox to wherever you want to take him

Tips:

• Killing fox off the side is far more effective than trying to kill him off the top. If you get him in hitstun in the air, go for a Nair.
• Control the stage as much as possible, get close and control the space around you and the space behind you. Push him off the stage
• Fox has 2 options to recover and only a few more when you factor in Firefox's angle (which doesn't matter if you're out on him with a rising Nair)
• Eggs make the opponent think, use them

VI. Differences Between Fox, Falco, and Wolf:
[Coming soon]

Guide Contributors:
@ TomBoComBo
@ Mumbo
@ pugwishbone17

 

[Mumbo]

Oops I didn't finish the thread or the poll and I accidentally pressed enter, posting the thread.

I'll reserve this post for more room if needed.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Let's get this started, shall we?


II. Overview:Fox is a fast character with a lot of pressure potential and early kills. Here, we discuss key points and basics of the matchup, I will go into analysis later on.

Fox's Strengths:

• Extremely Fast
• Strong Vertical Kill power in UpSmash and UpAir
• Very fast mental game with a lot of pressure and maneuverability.
• strong CC game

Fox's Weaknesses:

• Linear recovery is easily edge-guarded
• Light Fastfaller, nearly ideal combo weight
• Tech level required to play consistently is very high, this ******* the mental game of the player if it's not second nature.
• Perfect height and very long hitstun animation for maximum punish.

Key Points:

• Yoshi cannot be shinespiked out of his jump armor
• Yoshi's Nair eats each of Firefox and Illusion, and knocks Fox back a reasonable amount, even at low percents
• Egg Lay is fast enough and long enough to be used safely on a dash dancing Fox
• Grabbing is incredibly deadly to fox
• Gimping fox is almost laughably simple either by punishing a missed sweetspot or going offstage to kill with anything you want

III. Matchup Analysis:
Neutral Game:

• Getting a grab is the most important thing Yoshi wants to do in this matchup as they can lead to 0-to-deaths, huge damage, and edgeguards
• Pay attention to when Fox lands and when he uses his double jump and is forced to land (try to grab him before he hits the ground)
• Jabs are huge at shrugging off pressure, if he SHFFL fairs then shield and roll past him and jab OoS.
• Fair to uptilt
• Fox's Shorthop Nair and Shorthop Bair outprioritize eggroll
  • Breversing or wavebouncing eggroll can be good to punish if they're approaching
  • Rolling at fox can be dangerous if done in a straight line, try rolling off platforms

Comboing/Punishing Fox:

• UpThrow ChainGrab until ~ 40% (insert gif/video)
• DJC UpAir -> regrab; UpTilt -> regrab; UpSmash -> regrab at low percents
• DownThrow -> DownSmash to edgeguard at medium percents or kill at high percents
• Eggroll is great for techchasing as it is fast, you can change direction on reaction, and it pops Fox off the ground
• Upthrow -> upsmash is free until over 100% but fox should be dead somewhere around there. Throw eggs to make him think about where/how to come back down
• Dtilt is a good way to push him off stage
• Death combo: Downthrow -> Uptilt -> / jab reset -> grab / or / standing grab / or / tech chase dash/pivot grab / -> upthrow -> uptilt -> dash attack -> eggrthow to cover high recovery -> cover phantom to ledge with run-off rising Nair -> eggroll back to stage. I'll break this down in a second.

Escaping Fox's Pressure:

• Yoshi can Nair out of Upthrow -> Upair until ~50%
• a Big thing we can think about with this and the falco matchup is when to roll after a Dair hits your shield. You want to roll the moment he L cancels so that your shield doesn't take pressure from a shine.
• Preventing pressure by hopping slightly higher than fox and Nair-ing him in the face above his Nair hitbox.
• know when to roll and where to roll when shine pressure is happening
• Know where to smash DI
• Crouch canceling into Dtilt

Edgeguarding Fox:

• DownTilt and Downsmash can beat Fox trying to sweetspot the ledge
• A well timed rising Nair eats each of Firefox and Fox's SideB, and it knocks Fox back enough to repeat or kill, even at low percents
• placing an egg at the ledge when he's even with it for a phantom will deter him from using phantom or force him to use it early. (this precision takes some practice)
• catching him without a jump means you can run off stage and rising Fair him as he panic recovers. Don't be afraid to trade with firefox because it sends you up.

Recovering against Fox:

• Do not put an aerial out too hastily or Fox can shinespike or Backair you
• play games with him, make him think you're recovering high, then FF to the ledge.
• Breversing and wavebounceing eggroll will augment your movement enough to trick him.
• Going for ledge is relatively safe as long as the fox isn't actively trying to footstool you.

Putting it all together:
Fox has a great weight for Yoshi to get lengthy combos and even nastier kills. Spacing fox out and taking control of the stage is very easy because of Dtilt and Jabs. A key to early neutral game with fox is after anything you approach him with, being eggroll, fair, dair, or nair... Do an uptilt (or multiple). Fair to Uptilt is very fast if you Lcancel correctly. It can make it so you don't get grabbed or cover anything fox can do out of shield. if/when you get that uptilt, if fox is at low % it will knock him down without a chance to tech. At this point you get a free jab reset to Dsmash or grab or WHATEVER you feel like. If he's at higher percents, you can chase his DI with an egg, or you can get a free dash attack or you can Nair. Fox's hitstun allows you plenty of time to think about what you want to do.
Also, don't make DJC upairs an automatic. Yes they can be effective, yes they are fun and stylish, but they are NOT safe and they are NOT the best consistent option (try it if you want but it's not necessary). Getting a regrab or pushing fox off stage are more important priorities than juggling him.
When fox combos you, don't panic. I can't stress this enough in any matchup, You can't panic or else you will die because of mistakes. Fox CAN'T kill you unless he gets an upair, an upsmash, a backair at high percents, or a fsmash at high percents. When you get to the percent where you'll die from an Upsmash, the fox will be fishing for it and/or a grab to a chillin (which you can DI away and armor through). This is when you Bait him and get free grabs. He WILL challenge eggroll with Upsmash. It will clank if you are close or at max damage, then you dtilt him away or shield or wavedash back. If he continues to want to challenge eggroll, stop it early and get your free grab when he whiffs. When the fox want's to CC upsmash, you can just fair to uptilt for free because his only options are to spotdodge or shield or try to tank it. All of these options lead him to getting an uptilt to the face and heavy punish after. For all else, space him correctly and only take calculated risks when you're at death percent.
The death combo. When you get the grab, the combo relies on you as the Yoshi to look at where you are on the stage, what kind of game the fox plays (be it heavy on mental or heavy on tech) and how long the fox has been playing (you can tell this when you're an experienced player). The downthrow to uptilt is guaranteed but after that you have to cover the options. If the fox just falls, you get a free jab reset to regrab, no brains required. If he techs and rolls towards the ledge, you have to be fast enough to see the tech and get the dash grab before he sidesteps, (or dash to wavedash in place at dash grab distance to bait his sidestep then standing grab for free <- this is actually the more effective option). If he techs in place, you can standing grab and this will grab him even if he buffers a sidestep. and if he techs behind you, you can dash in the original direction you were facing and pivot grab him. Now you Upthrow him. He will more than likely DI away from you now, so you can quickly uptilt him or you can dash attack to get him off stage. then you throw a quick egg to cover the high phantom option and go out to cover the phantom to ledge option. With his DI, a dash attack will send him almost completely horizontal, so most foxes will wait a second to get low enough then jump to be even with the ledge and phantom to it. If you're fast enough, you can forget about the eggthrow and just go out to catch his jump. There are a lot of factors at play in this combo and It's not guaranteed by really any means, but if you're good enough, all it requires is quick and consistent option coverage.

IV. Stages
Final Destination:
Excellent Counterpick against Fox. It's harder for Fox to camp you without platforms. Grab combos, Juggling, and 0-to-deaths are much more effective without platforms as Fox has no escape. +++ Yoshi Counterpick.
Yoshi's Story: even
Battlefield: + Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium 2: even
Smashville: even/strike
Dreamland: +++Counterpick
Fountain of Dreams: +Counterpick
Yoshi's Island (Brawl): Ban/+Counterpick (personal preference on ban)
Lylat Cruise: Ban
Pokemon Stadium 1: Strike (not legal in most places anyways)
WarioWare: ++Counterpick
Green Hill Zone: + Counterpick
Skyworld: even
Dracula's Castle: +Counterpick
Distant Planet: ?

(we will order these into tiers and such to indicate bans, striking, and counterpicks. +++ Counterpick, ++ Counterpick, + Counterpick, even, - strike, -- ban, ---INSTABAN)

V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:

Don't:
Panic
Be afraid to go out on fox at any time
Worry about combos
worry about the player (be it m2k or some random)
overestimate when your % is high enough for an Upsmash death
Underestimate kill potential when fox is above 50%

Do:
grab
Know your opponent and their habits in shining, pressure, and desperation to kill
Know how much thought your opponent has to put into tech skill
know how you can manipulate their thought process
place eggthrows with the utmost accuracey
pressure fox into sweet spotting
punish anything you can with fairs
bait anything you can for grabs
play cool, calculated and collected
keep track of fox's jumps
Go for upsmash out of grab when you're unsure what kind of combo you could pull off

Tricks:
Baiting things with eggroll is effective.
Eggroll into back of shield -> dash -> pivot grab
If fox ever dash attacks you past your shield or lands behind you with Fair, OoS backair. Backair carries fox to wherever you want to take him.

Tips:
Killing fox off the side is far more effective than trying to kill him off the top if you get him in hitstun in the air, go for a Nair.
Control the stage as much as possible, get close and control the space around you and the space behind you. Push him off the stage
Fox has 2 options to recover and only a few more when you factor in firefox's angle (which doesnt matter if you're out on him with a rising Nair)
eggs make the opponent think, use them

VI. Differences Between Fox, Falco, and Wolf:
I don't feel like explaining this, Just know that they're all very different matchups and the only ones comparable are fox and falco (falco is more combo-able than fox because of his horizontal air speed). Read the guides on each and know the differences by how we explain each character

Guide written by:
@ Mumbo
@ TomBoComBo

 

[Mumbo]

Let's get this started, shall we?

II. Overview:Fox is a fast character with a lot of pressure potential and early kills. Here, we discuss key points and basics of the matchup, I will go into analysis later on.

Fox's Strengths:

• Extremely Fast
• Strong Vertical Kill power in UpSmash and UpAir
• Very fast mental game with a lot of pressure and maneuverability.
• strong CC game

Fox's Weaknesses:

• Linear recovery is easily edge-guarded
• Light Fastfaller, nearly ideal combo weight
• Tech level required to play consistently is very high, this ******* the mental game of the player if it's not second nature.
• Perfect height and very long hitstun animation for maximum punish.

Key Points:

• Yoshi cannot be shinespiked out of his jump armor
• Yoshi's Nair eats each of Firefox and Illusion, and knocks Fox back a reasonable amount, even at low percents
• Egg Lay is fast enough and long enough to be used safely on a dash dancing Fox
• Grabbing is incredibly deadly to fox
• Gimping fox is almost laughably simple either by punishing a missed sweetspot or going offstage to kill with anything you want

III. Matchup Analysis:
Neutral Game:

• Getting a grab is the most important thing Yoshi wants to do in this matchup as they can lead to 0-to-deaths, huge damage, and edgeguards
• Pay attention to when Fox lands and when he uses his double jump and is forced to land (try to grab him before he hits the ground)
• Jabs are huge at shrugging off pressure, if he SHFFL fairs then shield and roll past him and jab OoS.
• Fair to uptilt
• Fox's Shorthop Nair and Shorthop Bair outprioritize eggroll
  • Breversing or wavebouncing eggroll can be good to punish if they're approaching
  • Rolling at fox can be dangerous if done in a straight line, try rolling off platforms

Comboing/Punishing Fox:

• UpThrow ChainGrab until ~ 40% (insert gif/video)
• DJC UpAir -> regrab; UpTilt -> regrab; UpSmash -> regrab at low percents
• DownThrow -> DownSmash to edgeguard at medium percents or kill at high percents
• Eggroll is great for techchasing as it is fast, you can change direction on reaction, and it pops Fox off the ground
• Upthrow -> upsmash is free until over 100% but fox should be dead somewhere around there. Throw eggs to make him think about where/how to come back down
• Dtilt is a good way to push him off stage
• Death combo: Downthrow -> Uptilt -> / jab reset -> grab / or / standing grab / or / tech chase dash/pivot grab / -> upthrow -> uptilt -> dash attack -> eggrthow to cover high recovery -> cover phantom to ledge with run-off rising Nair -> eggroll back to stage. I'll break this down in a second.

Escaping Fox's Pressure:

• Yoshi can Nair out of Upthrow -> Upair until ~50%
• a Big thing we can think about with this and the falco matchup is when to roll after a Dair hits your shield. You want to roll the moment he L cancels so that your shield doesn't take pressure from a shine.
• Preventing pressure by hopping slightly higher than fox and Nair-ing him in the face above his Nair hitbox.
• know when to roll and where to roll when shine pressure is happening
• Know where to smash DI
• Crouch canceling into Dtilt

Edgeguarding Fox:

• DownTilt and Downsmash can beat Fox trying to sweetspot the ledge
• A well timed rising Nair eats each of Firefox and Fox's SideB, and it knocks Fox back enough to repeat or kill, even at low percents
• placing an egg at the ledge when he's even with it for a phantom will deter him from using phantom or force him to use it early. (this precision takes some practice)
• catching him without a jump means you can run off stage and rising Fair him as he panic recovers. Don't be afraid to trade with firefox because it sends you up.

Recovering against Fox:

• Do not put an aerial out too hastily or Fox can shinespike or Backair you
• play games with him, make him think you're recovering high, then FF to the ledge.
• Breversing and wavebounceing eggroll will augment your movement enough to trick him.
• Going for ledge is relatively safe as long as the fox isn't actively trying to footstool you.

Putting it all together:
Fox has a great weight for Yoshi to get lengthy combos and even nastier kills. Spacing fox out and taking control of the stage is very easy because of Dtilt and Jabs. A key to early neutral game with fox is after anything you approach him with, being eggroll, fair, dair, or nair... Do an uptilt (or multiple). Fair to Uptilt is very fast if you Lcancel correctly. It can make it so you don't get grabbed or cover anything fox can do out of shield. if/when you get that uptilt, if fox is at low % it will knock him down without a chance to tech. At this point you get a free jab reset to Dsmash or grab or WHATEVER you feel like. If he's at higher percents, you can chase his DI with an egg, or you can get a free dash attack or you can Nair. Fox's hitstun allows you plenty of time to think about what you want to do.
Also, don't make DJC upairs an automatic. Yes they can be effective, yes they are fun and stylish, but they are NOT safe and they are NOT the best consistent option (try it if you want but it's not necessary). Getting a regrab or pushing fox off stage are more important priorities than juggling him.
When fox combos you, don't panic. I can't stress this enough in any matchup, You can't panic or else you will die because of mistakes. Fox CAN'T kill you unless he gets an upair, an upsmash, a backair at high percents, or a fsmash at high percents. When you get to the percent where you'll die from an Upsmash, the fox will be fishing for it and/or a grab to a chillin (which you can DI away and armor through). This is when you Bait him and get free grabs. He WILL challenge eggroll with Upsmash. It will clank if you are close or at max damage, then you dtilt him away or shield or wavedash back. If he continues to want to challenge eggroll, stop it early and get your free grab when he whiffs. When the fox want's to CC upsmash, you can just fair to uptilt for free because his only options are to spotdodge or shield or try to tank it. All of these options lead him to getting an uptilt to the face and heavy punish after. For all else, space him correctly and only take calculated risks when you're at death percent.
The death combo. When you get the grab, the combo relies on you as the Yoshi to look at where you are on the stage, what kind of game the fox plays (be it heavy on mental or heavy on tech) and how long the fox has been playing (you can tell this when you're an experienced player). The downthrow to uptilt is guaranteed but after that you have to cover the options. If the fox just falls, you get a free jab reset to regrab, no brains required. If he techs and rolls towards the ledge, you have to be fast enough to see the tech and get the dash grab before he sidesteps, (or dash to wavedash in place at dash grab distance to bait his sidestep then standing grab for free <- this is actually the more effective option). If he techs in place, you can standing grab and this will grab him even if he buffers a sidestep. and if he techs behind you, you can dash in the original direction you were facing and pivot grab him. Now you Upthrow him. He will more than likely DI away from you now, so you can quickly uptilt him or you can dash attack to get him off stage. then you throw a quick egg to cover the high phantom option and go out to cover the phantom to ledge option. With his DI, a dash attack will send him almost completely horizontal, so most foxes will wait a second to get low enough then jump to be even with the ledge and phantom to it. If you're fast enough, you can forget about the eggthrow and just go out to catch his jump. There are a lot of factors at play in this combo and It's not guaranteed by really any means, but if you're good enough, all it requires is quick and consistent option coverage.
IV. Stages
Final Destination:
Excellent Counterpick against Fox. It's harder for Fox to camp you without platforms. Grab combos, Juggling, and 0-to-deaths are much more effective without platforms as Fox has no escape. +++ Yoshi Counterpick.
Yoshi's Story: even
Battlefield: + Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium 2: even
Smashville: even/strike
Dreamland: +++Counterpick
Fountain of Dreams: +Counterpick
Yoshi's Island (Brawl): Ban/+Counterpick (personal preference on ban)
Lylat Cruise: Ban
Pokemon Stadium 1: Strike (not legal in most places anyways)
WarioWare: ++Counterpick
Green Hill Zone: + Counterpick
Skyworld: even
Dracula's Castle: +Counterpick
Distant Planet: ?

(we will order these into tiers and such to indicate bans, striking, and counterpicks. +++ Counterpick, ++ Counterpick, + Counterpick, even, - strike, -- ban, ---INSTABAN)
V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:

Don't:
Panic
Be afraid to go out on fox at any time
Worry about combos
worry about the player (be it m2k or some random)
overestimate when your % is high enough for an Upsmash death
Underestimate kill potential when fox is above 50%

Do:
grab
Know your opponent and their habits in shining, pressure, and desperation to kill
Know how much thought your opponent has to put into tech skill
know how you can manipulate their thought process
place eggthrows with the utmost accuracey
pressure fox into sweet spotting
punish anything you can with fairs
bait anything you can for grabs
play cool, calculated and collected
keep track of fox's jumps
Go for upsmash out of grab when you're unsure what kind of combo you could pull off

Tricks:
Baiting things with eggroll is effective.
Eggroll into back of shield -> dash -> pivot grab
If fox ever dash attacks you past your shield or lands behind you with Fair, OoS backair. Backair carries fox to wherever you want to take him.

Tips:
Killing fox off the side is far more effective than trying to kill him off the top if you get him in hitstun in the air, go for a Nair.
Control the stage as much as possible, get close and control the space around you and the space behind you. Push him off the stage
Fox has 2 options to recover and only a few more when you factor in firefox's angle (which doesnt matter if you're out on him with a rising Nair)
eggs make the opponent think, use them

VI. Differences Between Fox, Falco, and Wolf:
I don't feel like explaining this, Just know that they're all very different matchups and the only ones comparable are fox and falco (falco is more combo-able than fox because of his horizontal air speed). Read the guides on each and know the differences by how we explain each character

Guide written by:
@ Mumbo
@ TomBoComBo

Updated the OP with all of your information, Thanks a lot!

Quick question, you refer to Fox's Fair a lot. Do you mean his Nair?

 

[TomBoComBo]

Updated the OP with all of your information, Thanks a lot!

Quick question, you refer to Fox's Fair a lot. Do you mean his Nair?

probably, I was very tired writing that.

 

[Damp]

I feel like this is an extremely easy matchup for Yoshi, especially if you come from a melee background like myself. If you get one grab in there, the fox is basically dead. When he's offstage, just downtilt him when he recovers so he has to use firefox then go nair him offstage. If you can land a dair on the ground, he's even easier to juggle and kill. Just uptilt a bunch and fsmash him off. Use the edgeguard options described above. Too easy.

 

[Mumbo]

@ TomBoComBo , why do you dislike smashville so much in this matchup? I understand the platform hurts combos and helps fox recover but not that much platform play usually goes on. I would argue this stage is better than ps2 actually and maybe yoshis story. Plus, without walls, fox has to go farther offstage to sweetspot the ledge, making edgeguarding that much more free.

@ Damp what do you think about stages?

 

[Damp]

@ Mumbo I always try to get FoD, FD, or Green Hill. Green Hill Zone is my absolute favorite stage for Yoshi. The moving platform provides so much utility for Yoshi in terms of being able to follow up combos with a waveland into DJC nair on a very narrow and flat stage. Fountain is basically the same with more platforms for movement, but the platforms also give fox an escape option if he goes too high on juggles. FD is pretty obvious. I also like Dreamland since the platforms are high up so Fox can't escape combos and Yoshi can live forever. WarioWare is also pretty good, but I tend to stay away for some reason. Probably just personal preference.

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ Mumbo it's just a personal ban. Smashville isn't a favorite of mine. The platform allows for more recovery options and some camping and saving fox from combos. It's manageable, Just not a favorite stage of mine

 

[Damp]

@ Mumbo it's just a personal ban. Smashville isn't a favorite of mine. The platform allows for more recovery options and some camping and saving fox from combos. It's manageable, Just not a favorite stage of mine

I also hate smashville. The moving platform screws with combos and the balloon gets in the way of eggs.

 

[pugwishbone17]

Hey, I made a thing for you to put in that chain grab spot:

You also might want to add that the chain grab doesn't really work until about 20%. Fox can easily air dodge before that. After that you can probably easily take him up to 60%, even more if he DIs since that actually lowers his max height.

 

[Mumbo]

Hey, I made a thing for you to put in that chain grab spot:

You also might want to add that the chain grab doesn't really work until about 20%. Fox can easily air dodge before that. After that you can probably easily take him up to 60%, even more if he DIs since that actually lowers his max height.

Thanks, this is really helpful. Noob question, how do i add your gif to the OP?

 

[pugwishbone17]

Copy the video location of that gif, edit your post and click the insert media thing wherever you want to put it, then just paste the url into the thingy.

edit: aaaand I just realized it doesn't let you copy the location
Here's the actual URL: http://fat.gfycat.com/WarmheartedTinyFoal.webm

 

[Mumbo]

Copy the video location of that gif, edit your post and click the insert media thing wherever you want to put it, then just paste the url into the thingy.

edit: aaaand I just realized it doesn't let you copy the location
Here's the actual URL: http://fat.gfycat.com/WarmheartedTinyFoal.webm

I tried to add it to the OP. Did it work? Im on my phone and i cant see it.

 

[pugwishbone17]

Yup it did

 

[Damp]

The fox has absolutely 0 DI in that gif. I know it's to illustrate that it can be done, but you don't always have the luxury of being able to pivot grab after each throw.

 

[pugwishbone17]

The fox has absolutely 0 DI in that gif. I know it's to illustrate that it can be done, but you don't always have the luxury of being able to pivot grab after each throw.

It's just to show it's possible, and it's actually not that hard since yoshi's up throw can't really be DI'd that far along with the fact that the pivot grab covers a pretty big area in such a short time

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Hey Mumbo, first off this is a great idea! I was wondering if I could maybe steal some of your info/format for the Wolf sub-forum? I feel like every character forum should have something similar to help develop match-ups and the meta-game. Cheers.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Hey Mumbo, first off this is a great idea! I was wondering if I could maybe steal some of your info/format for the Wolf sub-forum? I feel like every character forum should have something similar to help develop match-ups and the meta-game. Cheers.

We'll be attacking each character in turn, so if You need wolf, We'll do him next. Also as a side note, Wolf is super free, almost no way to kill Yoshi and both his recoveries are stuffed by Nair
@ Mumbo Wolf next it seems

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

We'll be attacking each character in turn, so if You need wolf, We'll do him next. Also as a side note, Wolf is super free, almost no way to kill Yoshi and both his recoveries are stuffed by Nair
@ Mumbo Wolf next it seems

I've actually picked up a counter for this match up, I'd probably rarely pick Wolf into Yoshi at this point. I use Snake as my counter, seems like you have to play extremely campy, which I don't like, but it has to be done.

Hopefully I'm allowed to create similar match up threads in the Wolf sub forums, pretty dead there.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I've actually picked up a counter for this match up, I'd probably rarely pick Wolf into Yoshi at this point. Hopefully I'm allowed to create similar match up threads in the Wolf sub forums.

Picking wolf against Yoshi means you're giving away the match, think you're the best wolf in the world x10, or are completely unaware of the MU. I can't tell you how bad I wanted to fight Chillindude at CEO, I knew I'd cream him if he went wolf.

 

[Mumbo]

Hey Mumbo, first off this is a great idea! I was wondering if I could maybe steal some of your info/format for the Wolf sub-forum? I feel like every character forum should have something similar to help develop match-ups and the meta-game. Cheers.

Absolutely! I hope every character forum picks this matchup thread idea up.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Absolutely! I hope every character forum picks this matchup thread idea up.

Marth reply/addition/critique done

 

[Jinjo64]

So I was playing with some friends and Falco can shine through Yoshi's armor. Which means a decent Falco can kill you off the edge no problem. Can Fox do the same thing? This completely wrecks Yoshi.

 

[TomBoComBo]

So I was playing with some friends and Falco can shine through Yoshi's armor. Which means a decent Falco can kill you off the edge no problem. Can Fox do the same thing? This completely wrecks Yoshi.

Fox's shine does nothing. and Falco's shine spike has been thoroughly discussed. Easy way to avoid that spike is to eggroll to get popped up. Also the other easy way to not get hit with that is to not recover low. Yoshis should almost always recover high in that MU. Also Jinjo, I'd like to know the tags of the Yoshi(s) you play

 

[Jinjo64]

Fox's shine does nothing. and Falco's shine spike has been thoroughly discussed. Easy way to avoid that spike is to eggroll to get popped up. Also the other easy way to not get hit with that is to not recover low. Yoshis should almost always recover high in that MU. Also Jinjo, I'd like to know the tags of the Yoshi(s) you play

Hmmm alrighty. I did practice Yoshi all night last night and did notice the egg roll in air dodge was a very reliable recovery option compared to what I thought before. Also I am the only okay Yoshi player around SW Michigan I believe. So I am very open minded to what you guys have to teach me!

 

[TomBoComBo]

If you have any questions with almost any MU vs Yoshi, ask me.

 

[Boshi PV]

If you have any questions with almost any MU vs Yoshi, ask me.

I am aware that you guys are doing every character in turn, but a Peach would be much appreciated. Such an annoying opponent.

 

[Mumbo]

I am aware that you guys are doing every character in turn, but a Peach would be much appreciated. Such an annoying opponent.

Throw eggs bait moves and whiff punish. Shes very hard to challenge on the ground or in the air and yoshi has a very hard time comboing her.

Edit: actually please post that kind of stuff in the general matchup thread. This thread should really be fox only (no items final destination)

 

[TomBoComBo]

keep this post about fox.

 

[Jinjo64]

Fox only. Final Destination.

 

[SPIRE_FAN]

If it helps (starting at 4:54) (he counterpicked to Wario Ware to be clear):

 

[Mumbo]

If it helps (starting at 4:54) (he counterpicked to Wario Ware to be clear):

That was a great game. Also you upthrew -> upsmashed at 100 and killed. I, and probably most other yoshi's, would have downthrew there but that was a good option I didn't even imagine working. I'll add to the OP. Thanks

 

[TomBoComBo]

That was a great game. Also you upthrew -> upsmashed at 100 and killed. I, and probably most other yoshi's, would have downthrew there but that was a good option I didn't even imagine working. I'll add to the OP. Thanks

upthrow wrecks spacies

 

[Mumbo]

upthrow wrecks spacies

Yeah it does. I just never found good use out of it at high percents when I have downthrow->downsmash into edgeguard at the very least. Upthrow -> upsmash is a great mixup for low ceilings.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Yeah it does. I just never found good use out of it at high percents when I have downthrow->downsmash into edgeguard at the very least. Upthrow -> upsmash is a great mixup for low ceilings.

upthrow nair? upthrow upair? upthrow NAIR??

 

[Deleted member]

how do i vote fox fox wrecking yoshi

 

[Damp]

how do i vote fox fox wrecking yoshi

You don't because it's completely false.

 

[Deleted member]

if you just win the match-up why bother discussing something as arbitrary as the margin?

ive played smash long enough to accept that no character really beats fox per se, some just dont lose automatically

 

[Mumbo]

if you just win the match-up why bother discussing something as arbitrary as the margin?

ive played smash long enough to accept that no character really beats fox per se, some just dont lose automatically

I don't want to sound rude here, but do you realize we are not discussing melee?