Mumbo
Smash Journeyman
This will be the first of a series of threads, each dedicated to a single matchup, covering all 41(+) matchups. These threads are going to be a collaboration, so PLEASE give me your thoughts and opinions. Post your videos here, even if you lose. Post your preferred stages, even if people think otherwise. Post your tips, even if you think you aren't the best player.
I. Videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6bZitfE0wk (games 1 & 5) Oven vs Colum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JFD8-Dukow Epic Yoshi vs FrootLoop [UFGTX]
http://youtu.be/CRgL6ZfWAQ4?t=4m41s (game 2) Spire_Fan vs Frizz
II. Overview:
Fox is a fast character with a lot of pressure potential and early kills. Here, we discuss key points and basics of the matchup, we will go into analysis later on. Firefox = Fox's Up special/recovery; Illusion/Phantom = Fox's side special; Shine/Reflector = Fox's down special.
Fox's Strengths:
- Extremely Fast
- Strong Vertical Kill power in UpSmash and UpAir
- Very fast mental game with a lot of pressure and maneuverability
- Strong Crouch Cancel game
- Linear recovery is easily edge-guarded
- Light Fastfaller, nearly ideal combo weight
- Perfect height and very long hitstun animation for maximum punish
- Tech level required to play Fox consistently is very high, this ******* the mental game of the player if it's not second nature
- Yoshi cannot be shinespiked out of his jump armor
- Shine does not knock Yoshi down
- Gimping fox is almost laughably simple either by punishing a missed sweetspot or going offstage to kill with anything you want
- Yoshi's Nair eats each of Firefox and Illusion, and knocks Fox back a reasonable amount, even at low percents
- Egg Lay is fast enough and long enough to be used safely on a dash dancing Fox
- Grabbing is incredibly deadly to fox
Neutral Game:
- Getting a grab is the most important thing Yoshi wants to do in this matchup as they can lead to 0-to-deaths, huge damage, and edgeguards
- Pay attention to when Fox lands and when he uses his double jump and is forced to land (try to grab him before he hits the ground)
- Jabs are huge at shrugging off pressure, if he SHFFL Nairs then shield and roll past him and jab OoS.
- Fair to uptilt
- Fox's Shorthop Nair and Shorthop Bair outprioritize eggroll
- Breversing or wavebouncing eggroll can be good to punish if they're approaching
- Rolling at fox can be dangerous if done in a straight line, try rolling off platforms
- UpThrow ChainGrab ~ 20-60%
- DJC UpAir -> regrab; UpTilt -> regrab; UpSmash -> regrab at low percents
- DownThrow -> DownSmash to edgeguard at medium percents or kill at high percents
- Eggroll is great for techchasing as it is fast, you can change direction on reaction, and it pops Fox off the ground
- Upthrow -> upsmash is free until over 100% but fox should be dead somewhere around there. Throw eggs to make him think about where/how to come back down
- Dtilt is a good way to push him off stage
- Death combo: Downthrow -> Uptilt -> / jab reset -> grab / or / standing grab / or / tech chase dash/pivot grab / -> upthrow -> uptilt -> dash attack -> eggrthow to cover high recovery -> cover phantom to ledge with run-off rising Nair -> eggroll back to stage. (gif/video plz)
- Yoshi can Nair out of Upthrow -> Upair until ~50%
- Fox's Throws:
- Upthrow: Sets up for Upair, DI behind fox to make the follow up as hard as possible
- Downthrow: Mix up DI and techrolls. Often times Fox will downthrow and read the roll for an Upsmash
- Backthrow:
- Forwardthrow:
- If you shield a Dair, roll the moment the Fox L-cancels to avoid taking pressure from a shine
- Hop slightly higher than fox and Nair him in the face above his Nair hitbox
- Know when to roll and where to roll when shine pressure is happening
- Smash DI
- Smash DI Upthrow -> Upair by smashing both sticks up when Fox upairs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4zuzBaaNu8)
- SDI Upsmash straight down, try to tech it
- Crouch Cancel Dtilt
- DownTilt and Downsmash can beat Fox trying to sweetspot the ledge
- A well timed rising Nair eats each of Firefox and Fox's SideB, and it knocks Fox back enough to repeat or kill, even at low percents
- Placing an egg at the ledge when he's even with it for a phantom will deter him from using phantom or force him to use it early (this precision takes some practice)
- Catching him without a jump means you can run off stage and rising Fair him as he panic recovers. Don't be afraid to trade with firefox because it sends you up.
- Do not put an aerial out too hastily or Fox can shinespike or Backair you
- Play games with him, make him think you're recovering high, then FF to the ledge
- B-reversing and wavebounceing eggroll will augment your movement enough to trick him
- Going for ledge is relatively safe as long as the fox isn't actively trying to footstool you
- Fox has a great weight for Yoshi to get lengthy combos and even nastier kills. Spacing fox out and taking control of the stage is very easy because of Dtilt and Jabs. A key to early neutral game with fox is after anything you approach him with, being eggroll, fair, dair, or nair... Do an uptilt (or multiple). Fair to Uptilt is very fast if you Lcancel correctly. It can make it so you don't get grabbed or cover anything fox can do out of shield. if/when you get that uptilt, if fox is at low % it will knock him down without a chance to tech. At this point you get a free jab reset to Dsmash or grab or WHATEVER you feel like. If he's at higher percents, you can chase his DI with an egg, or you can get a free dash attack or you can Nair. Fox's hitstun allows you plenty of time to think about what you want to do.
- Also, don't make DJC upairs an automatic. Yes they can be effective, yes they are fun and stylish, but they are NOT safe and they are NOT the best consistent option (try it if you want but it's not necessary). Getting a regrab or pushing fox off stage are more important priorities than juggling him.
- When fox combos you, don't panic. I can't stress this enough in any matchup, You can't panic or else you will die because of mistakes. Fox CAN'T kill you unless he gets an upair, an upsmash, a backair at high percents, or a fsmash at high percents. When you get to the percent where you'll die from an Upsmash, the fox will be fishing for it and/or a grab to a chillin (which you can DI away and armor through). This is when you Bait him and get free grabs. He WILL challenge eggroll with Upsmash. It will clank if you are close or at max damage, then you dtilt him away or shield or wavedash back. If he continues to want to challenge eggroll, stop it early and get your free grab when he whiffs. When the fox want's to CC upsmash, you can just fair to uptilt for free because his only options are to spotdodge or shield or try to tank it. All of these options lead him to getting an uptilt to the face and heavy punish after. For all else, space him correctly and only take calculated risks when you're at death percent.
- The Death Combo: When you get the grab, the combo relies on you as the Yoshi to look at where you are on the stage, what kind of game the fox plays (be it heavy on mental or heavy on tech) and how long the fox has been playing (you can tell this when you're an experienced player). The downthrow to uptilt is guaranteed but after that you have to cover the options. If the fox just falls, you get a free jab reset to regrab, no brains required. If he techs and rolls towards the ledge, you have to be fast enough to see the tech and get the dash grab before he sidesteps, (or dash to wavedash in place at dash grab distance to bait his sidestep then standing grab for free <- this is actually the more effective option). If he techs in place, you can standing grab and this will grab him even if he buffers a sidestep. and if he techs behind you, you can dash in the original direction you were facing and pivot grab him. Now you Upthrow him. He will more than likely DI away from you now, so you can quickly uptilt him or you can dash attack to get him off stage. then you throw a quick egg to cover the high phantom option and go out to cover the phantom to ledge option. With his DI, a dash attack will send him almost completely horizontal, so most foxes will wait a second to get low enough then jump to be even with the ledge and phantom to it. If you're fast enough, you can forget about the eggthrow and just go out to catch his jump. There are a lot of factors at play in this combo and It's not guaranteed by really any means, but if you're good enough, all it requires is quick and consistent option coverage.
Ultimately, Stage striking, banning, and Counterpicking comes down to personal preference. People will also have conflicting opinions as to which stages are better or worse for certain matchups. Use this as a rough baseline, understand the reasons why each stage may help hurt a particular character, and learn what your opponent might want to ban/counterpick against you. Different Tournaments use different stage lists with different sets of starters and different amounts of stage bans.
Counterpicks:
- Final Destination
- +++ Counterpick
- + It's harder for Fox to camp you without platforms
- + Grab combos, Juggling, and 0-to-deaths are much more effective without platforms as Fox has no escape
- Dreamland
- +++ Counterpick
- + Yoshi lives to stupidly high %
- + I mean stupidly high %
- + Platforms are great for Yoshi's mobility
- - Fox has a lot of room to run around
- - Fox has platforms to camp
- Green Hill Zone
- ++ Counterpick
- + Smaller FD with a platform that doesn't interfere too much
- + Platform helps Yoshi's movement
- Fountain of Dreams
- ++ Counterpick
- + High Ceiling helps against Fox's Vertical Kills
- + Platforms sometimes get out of the way allowing Yoshi to combo Fox like it's Final D
- - Fox can ride the walls with his firefox
- Wario Ware
- + Counterpick
- Battlefield
- + Counterpick
- Dracula's Castle
- + Counterpick
- + Yoshi lives to stupidly high %
- + Platforms sometimes get out of the way allowing Yoshi to combo Fox like it's Final D
- - Fox has a lot of room to run around
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- - Strike
- - Platforms give Fox an escape from 0 to deaths
- + Platforms give Yoshi free dairs for tons of damage
- + Fox cannot ride the side of the stage with his Firefox
- - Relatively low ceiling
- Yoshi's Story
- - Strike
- - Low ceiling means early Kills for Fox
- + Platforms are great for Yoshi's mobility
- Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
- + High Ceiling
- - This stage is annoying
- - The terrain is annoying
- - The tilting platform is annoying
- - The shy guys are annoying
- - The Randall platforms are annoying and help Fox much more than Yoshi
- Skyworld
- - The Platforms are difficult to see
- - The Platforms extending over the edge give Fox more recovery options
- Smashville
- - Strike; Ban, maybe?
- - The platform can get Fox out of combo's and it's difficult to follow up on because it moves
- - The platform can give Fox extra recovery options and helps him more than it does Yoshi
- + Fox cannot ride the stage with his Firefox
- + Platform can get out of the way allowing Yoshi to combo Fox like it's Final D
- Lylat Cruise
- - Ban
- - Terrain hurts Yoshi
- - Fox has a real easy time escaping combos
- + Fox cannot ride the wall with his Firefox
- Pokemon Stadium 1
- - Ban (if legal)
- - Transformations help Fox
- - Low Ceiling
- Distant Planet
- Rarely Legal
- Metal Cavern
- Rarely Legal
V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:
- Panic when getting pressured
- Be afraid to go out on fox at any time
- Tunnel vision into trying to pull off huge combos
- Underestimate Fox's Upsmash kill potential when you are at high %
- Underestimate your kill potential when fox is above 50%
- Grab
- Know your opponent and their habits in shining, pressure, and desperation to kill
- Know how much thought your opponent has to put into tech skill
- Know how you can manipulate their thought process
- Place eggthrows with the utmost accuracey
- Pressure fox into sweet spotting the ledge
- Punish anything you can with Fairs
- Bait anything you can for grabs
- Play cool, calculated and collected
- Keep track of fox's jumps
- Go for upsmash out of grab when you're unsure of what kind of combo you could pull off
- Baiting things with eggroll is effective
- Eggroll into back of shield -> dash -> pivot grab
- If fox ever dash attacks you past your shield or lands behind you with Nair, do an Out of Shield Backair; Backair carries fox to wherever you want to take him
- Killing fox off the side is far more effective than trying to kill him off the top. If you get him in hitstun in the air, go for a Nair.
- Control the stage as much as possible, get close and control the space around you and the space behind you. Push him off the stage
- Fox has 2 options to recover and only a few more when you factor in Firefox's angle (which doesn't matter if you're out on him with a rising Nair)
- Eggs make the opponent think, use them
[Coming soon]
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