Fox vs. Heavy Characters

[m0ll0y]

Mainly , talking about King dedede and Ganondorf . For some reason i always struggle when versing them , i try to space myself but i always find i can only get a few weak hits before i get trapped in a heavy combo. Oddly i do fairly well against lighter characters such as Little mac , diddy , marth . , i dont know if its because im still stuck in melee mode , but i rarely can beat heavy characters i know i should be beating . For now i switch to puff when i know i am versing them , but thats almost a worse matchup because of how light puff is . Any ideas , tips ?? and thanks

 

[DavemanCozy]

Respect f-tilt's range. Don't go challenging his D-tilt. Remember you can N-air and Reflect Gordos back at him. Dedede actually has the 2nd fastest falling speed in the game (faster than , slower than ), he's extremely combo friendly once you poke him with something like a jab, grab, N-air or Dash attack.

is in the same boat, careful with his F-tilt, U-smash, Wizards Foot and Flame Choke. Unlike Dedede though, Ganon has zero safe approach options whereas we're faster and have much superior movement speed and attack speed. The biggest threat is his Side-B game, you should to bait that out of him. he's also very combo friendly.

 

[m0ll0y]

Respect f-tilt's range. Don't go challenging his D-tilt. Remember you can N-air and Reflect Gordos back at him. Dedede actually has the 2nd fastest falling speed in the game (faster than , slower than ), he's extremely combo friendly once you poke him with something like a jab, grab, N-air or Dash attack.

is in the same boat, careful with his F-tilt, U-smash, Wizards Foot and Flame Choke. Unlike Dedede though, Ganon has zero safe approach options whereas we're faster and have much superior movement speed and attack speed. The biggest threat is his Side-B game, you should to bait that out of him. he's also very combo friendly.

Thanks and yeah ganons flame choke always gets me then the follow up down smash

 

[luke_atyeo]

practice teching ganons flame choke, not 100% sure but teching away from it should prevent any of his follow up options from working (with the possible exception of wizard kick)

 

[Volimutt]

practice teching ganons flame choke, not 100% sure but teching away from it should prevent any of his follow up options from working (with the possible exception of wizard kick)

Usually after landing flame choke Ganon's go for the obvious D-Tilt. You can avoid the d-tilt by tech rolling behind him but do this too many time and a smart Ganon would catch on and tech chase with a second flame choke. Where then it becomes a rock, paper, scissor situation. Flame choke: No tech < D-Tilt, Spot tech < D-tilt, Roll tech < flame choke, No tech > flame choke, etc. Pretty sure there are many more scenarios, grab some friends and try em all.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Well, you should aim to avoid flame choke, but yes definitely learn the tech timing if you aren't comfortable with baiting it out of him.

Ganon's way of faking out a Flame Choke is doing DownB instead. Other than the Wizards Foot though, the only other options he has is to run in with a dash to shield, or dash attack. If Ganon chooses to wait and react to what you're going to do instead, you can laser him if you're far enough from Flame Choke / Wizards Foot range, or use your movement to fake him out at midrange. His moves have a noticeable amount of lag (buffed from Brawl, but still laggy), you can use this time to go in and beat him up.

With heavy weights (not just Dedede and Ganon, also vs R.O.B., Bowser and Donkey Kong), bad places to be in are near corners and above them. However, the same goes for them.

The hardest heavyweights for me are actually R.O.B. and DK, I'd appreciate any thoughts one of you may have, to keep this convo going
edit: add Wario to the list of difficult heavies for me, I keep forgetting he's heavy with his unusual movement

 

[m0ll0y]

Usually after landing flame choke Ganon's go for the obvious D-Tilt. You can avoid the d-tilt by tech rolling behind him but do this too many time and a smart Ganon would catch on and tech chase with a second flame choke. Where then it becomes a rock, paper, scissor situation. Flame choke: No tech < D-Tilt, Spot tech < D-tilt, Roll tech < flame choke, No tech > flame choke, etc. Pretty sure there are many more scenarios, grab some friends and try em all.

Thanks ! And I've neve acually tryed to roll behind him yet

 

[m0ll0y]

Well, you should aim to avoid flame choke, but yes definitely learn the tech timing if you aren't comfortable with baiting it out of him.

Ganon's way of faking out a Flame Choke is doing DownB instead. Other than the Wizards Foot though, the only other options he has is to run in with a dash to shield, or dash attack. If Ganon chooses to wait and react to what you're going to do instead, you can laser him if you're far enough from Flame Choke / Wizards Foot range, or use your movement to fake him out at midrange. His moves have a noticeable amount of lag (buffed from Brawl, but still laggy), you can use this time to go in and beat him up.

With heavy weights (not just Dedede and Ganon, also vs R.O.B., Bowser and Donkey Kong), bad places to be in are near corners and above them. However, the same goes for them.

The hardest heavyweights for me are actually R.O.B. and DK, I'd appreciate any thoughts one of you may have, to keep this convo going
edit: add Wario to the list of difficult heavies for me, I keep forgetting he's heavy with his unusual movement

Thanks now I just gotta wait till I vs another ganon to try this I'll let you know how it works

 

[EndlessRain]

DO NOT TECH BEHIND GANON.
Well, not too often. You need to mix it up. Rolling away avoids everything but Wizard's Foot and a pre-planned Flame Choke. But do it too often and he'll just switch to using those. Going behind lets you avoid them, but will get you dsmashed if you are predictable with it. Best thing is to avoid it, but get hit with it twice and you can get a good idea of what they like to use (normally dtilt).
For heavies in general (well, the slow ones), I tend to play really cautious, allow them to close the gap a little before poking and retreating. After a little while, once they think they are safe coming at me, think I am playing defensive, I meet the approaches head-on. Avoid the hit then double jab cancel/dash attack/tipper dtilt or something into whatever. Heavies are combo food for Fox, and he eats them for breakfast. The fact that they are bad at approaching makes life even easier: You make them come to you, then punish them for it.
Then again, my technical skill is quite bad so I have to rely on game knowledge and mindgames like this... There's probably a better way.
Also, don't try to camp ROB. That gets you nothing but killed. You can rush him down more reliably than the others, I find. Just watch for sideB... It beats more than you'd expect lol. From the air is the way to go, just fastfall if he jumps to meet you. I need help with ROB too though, so pinch of salt.
re:DK idk I get my ass handed to me so hard by most of the ones I fight that I need to watch that one shofu vid to cheer myself up again.

 

[Timbers]

Bowser scares the hell out of me still. I dunno what it is. Those jabs snuff a lot of options, dtilt's zany active frames wrecks Fox's sideB to the ledge, upB OoS makes him hella harder to shield pressure than other heavies..etc etc.

Wario is mad irritating too. Bite is just really good against characters without disjoints/range.