Fox patch 1.10 changes

[Tenretsujin10]

Dude, chill. People are right to be concerned. Fox's jab combo was a seriously good tool, and it's a shame to lose it, especially since fox was in no way overpowered before this patch. Larry was the only fox in top 32 at CEO and he and Bloodcross the only two at Evo.

Lose it? It's not lost at all. The only thing you cannot do anymore is walk someone across the stage with jabs, and jab-jab downsmash. He still retains most of his options with jabs and can do a little more imo.

 

[G-Sword]

The new jab is not too bad honestly. It took some things and we gained some. Now jabs to rapid kicks is inescapable. Pre-patch certain characters could get out of it before u did the kicks like falco, falcon etc. Jabs to usmash does work sometimes and is character/position dependant. The new jabs u can do the jab cancel combo but not like before of course. But I'm still getting use to it. But I think the changes will actually help out once people get use to it. There is much combo potential.

Also I think illusion has a tad bit more stun. For some reason I can pull off more illusion to bair (if opponent gets hit towards me) than I ever have

 

[colinies]

The new jab is not too bad honestly. It took some things and we gained some. Now jabs to rapid kicks is inescapable. Pre-patch certain characters could get out of it before u did the kicks like falco, falcon etc. Jabs to usmash does work sometimes and is character/position dependant. The new jabs u can do the jab cancel combo but not like before of course. But I'm still getting use to it. But I think the changes will actually help out once people get use to it. There is much combo potential.

Also I think illusion has a tad bit more stun. For some reason I can pull off more illusion to bair (if opponent gets hit towards me) than I ever have

Much like the Diddy Kong nerf I think its forcing us to be more creative which I like

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Much like the Diddy Kong nerf I think its forcing us to be more creative which I like

There is no braindead walking characters across the stage anymore.

 

[G-Sword]

Fox will be fine, personally I like the idea that he's not easy to use. He was always a smart character; meaning that he rewards good play and not being reckless. He's light but fast, and has the tools to get by. Is he overpowered of course not and I will admit that he does have unfavorable matchups but unfavorable doesn't necessarily mean impossible

That's what I like about Fox. He actually requires skill to use. High precision, accuracy, timing, full knowledge of his moves and opponents, being able to read moves as well as having great reaction speed, no spamming of moves and being unpredictable... It sounds like thats is the key to being a great smash player but its the key to being a great fox since fox requires this more than anyone. That's why I fox doesn't seem like he can top the high tier characters when in fact fox could actually crush them if played at the highest level. His high degree of play just to b good turns alot of people away from him... I love it lol

Fox being top ten is kinda a iffy claim. He was viable for sure and he had good results behind him, but in all honesty he had a lot of slightly unfavorable to pretty bad matchups. He just happened to have good enough tools to make a lot of those manageable. Where he goes now we'll have to see. He still has some interesting followups to his jab, but a good number are significantly harder to pull off.

EDIT: Also interesting to note is Larry Lurr also talks about the new Jab kill setups potentially being a buff against his bad matchups, particularly Sheik. Perhaps it isn't too bad?

Nah fox is top 10 easily

 

[Foster J.]

Lmao **** no, overrated now.

 

[G-Sword]

Lmao **** no, overrated now.

I beg to differ

 

[Foster J.]

I beg to differ

We've litteraly lost JabJab Dsmash, imo our best finisher. No throws going and we still lose to rage.
Fox is Top of Mid tier if anything / bottom High

 

[G-Sword]

We've litteraly lost JabJab Dsmash, imo our best finisher. No throws going and we still lose to rage.
Fox is Top of Mid tier if anything / bottom High

It is lost but there have been many other things gained with the new jab. Jabs to usmash with tipper and sometimes non-tipper, jabs to dtilt is now actually a move that we can use instead of it just being a move we throw out hoping it lands, jabs to fsmash has worked for me, jabs to ftilt, jabs to dashA, jabs to rapid kicks is now inescapable on anyone, jabs to jabs still work u can even get 3 or 4 on certain characters I believe pit still need to mess around with it, jabs to grab still works at low percent, I have even done jabs to utilt to jabs at low percent

 

[Tenretsujin10]

We've litteraly lost JabJab Dsmash, imo our best finisher. No throws going and we still lose to rage.
Fox is Top of Mid tier if anything / bottom High

Guess you must be so bad at Fox to rely solely on Jab-Jab Down Smash to kill.

Get gud kid.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

^Fox's kill setups are as few as they are tricky, and jab-jab-dsmash was one of the few kill move chains that can be executed consistently and reliably. A lot of the top characters can kill out of grabs or similarly easy-to-execute moves, and Fox doesn't have that. Being forced to fish for kills isn't fun and does affect Fox's viability in a significant way. Quell your 'tude.

 

[Bread on the Table]

Ok. I hope we can all look at this in a civil manner instead of calling people out. On paper, Fox was never as good as I really believe he could have been/is. His biggest advantage in this game is his ability to jump around the opponent, bait out attacks, and throw out as many safe WELL SPACED hitboxes that he can, these moves being nair (most of the time) and bair. Both are pretty-very safe on shield. Empty hops to bait people dropping their shield or throwing out bad attacks. He is arguably the best character to bait airdodges with in this game due to his fast falling speed and long lasting nair. Killing has to do alot with baits, apart from Bairs near ledge, nair and dair to up smash. So yes, he doesn't look as great as he is on paper imo. There's really not much any character in the game can do if fox is going all over the place in a SAFE matter, as his movement attributes are very good relative to the rest of the cast. I might be wrong, not that I would switch characters or anything, but that's just my opinion. feel free to disagree lol

 

[Tenretsujin10]

^Fox's kill setups are as few as they are tricky, and jab-jab-dsmash was one of the few kill move chains that can be executed consistently and reliably. A lot of the top characters can kill out of grabs or similarly easy-to-execute moves, and Fox doesn't have that. Being forced to fish for kills isn't fun and does affect Fox's viability in a significant way. Quell your 'tude.

Up-tilt > Up-Air
SHFF D-air > Up-Smash
Weak Nair > Up-Smash
Jab-Jab > Hyphen Up-Smash
Running pivot F-tilt > Up-Smash
F-tilt > Up-Smash (Weight/fallspeed dependent?) w/ missed tech
Dash Attack > Up-Air
End portion of Side-B > Up-Air
Up-tilt > Back-air
D-tilt > Up-Air

These all seem pretty consistent to me, and easy. Losing the braindead jab-jab infinite will force you baddies to explore his kill options better.

 

[Foster J.]

He isn't safe and never was, the fact that we did lose that setup puts us at risk. Yes it's possible to do a JabJab spaced to Usmash, however that isn't guaranteed until higher percentages ranging from 120-150 in which you are losing to rage.
The fact is shielding is pretty much safe against Fox, due to the lack of throw setups.

So Fox has to use his double edged speed as his weapon to bait and punish, however against cautions opponents, this can be turned against you, hence double edged. Nair isn't really safe on shield, as soon as they've taken the hit they can go in for a grab on you or whatever options X character has and is able to react to.

Fox was / is a combo monster from the setups he had, but as all of them are attacks shield is strong due to the "Triangle" of Sm4sh being Atack > Grab < Shield > Attack.
I'd say Ftilt is hard to punish on shield as well due to how fast it is, but it does move you forward if memory serves.

Like Nakat put it into words "Frame trap character" but not everyone is going to fall for the same trick twice.

Snip-

Wow presumptuous much? You really are a work of art aren't you.
You and G-sword should go form the **** talkers club, but maybe there isn't room for him due to how inflated your ego is /sigh.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

If your opponent is living that long... then just kill them with an Up-tilt...

 

[NAKAT]

More importantly WHAT CAN WE DO TO NESS NOW
THAT WAS OUR ONLY GOOD HIGH TIER MATCHUP WHYYYYY

I felt Ness beat Fox prior to the patch, but the jab made it a lot closer. Now I just think Ness wins solidly. Fox however still does great and I choose to go Fox on any Ness I play.

 

[colinies]

I felt Ness beat Fox prior to the patch, but the jab made it a lot closer. Now I just think Ness wins solidly. Fox however still does great and I choose to go Fox on any Ness I play.

I feel like Fox has so much control over the neutral with his speed and Jab and Up Tilt. Maybe i'm just not playing very good Ness players.