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Fox-Ness Matchup

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TDC

Smash Rookie
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Sep 24, 2015
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Hello! I haven't had a problem with this matchup until recently. I suppose I never have played an experienced ness before this. This seems like a tricky matchup for Fox, even though I saw Larry Lurr 2 stock K9's Ness fairly convincingly. I think I'm just unfamiliar with the matchup at a high level. Ness is pretty difficult to combo and for some odd reason, falling nair/dair was not giving him enough hitstun for me to follow up with USmash. Does anyone have any advice on this matchup, because it seems much different than other matchups like Sheik (which I think is definitely in Fox's favor if executed correctly)
 

SirShadows

Smash Rookie
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Jul 5, 2015
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SirShadows
I'm not really experienced in the matchup itself (because I main both), but I know the thing both characters have in common is to be in high level play, with both, you must have the hardest mindset throughout the entire game. Calculating recovery, aggression, being defensive, both characters mix up the play styles depending on the match, the important part is predicting or reading which style goes next.

I personally think its a bad matchup. Whenever I find a Ness I rather ditto them than use my Fox. Since Fox is a fast faller he can't punish a Ness well when recovering off stage (which is where he struggles) and since Ness is very FLOATY he can easily intervene a Fox recover (especially with PK Thunder.) Also Fox won't combo well against Ness as will float away earlier than others.

The Best thing you can do is out play him as a player, not as a character. Manipulate, bait, punish, read better than the opponent and use your speed as Ness is generally slow. Have him off stage to concentrate more on calculating recovery angles and away from the metagame. Good luck.

#20XX vs.199X


EDIT: Also one of the most important elements to play him is stage control... Never be on the edge of the stage as backthrow will Kill you early (having good DI helps though). Fox kills anywhere on the stage but Ness needs specific spots unless he upairs. Can't really recommend lasers as he'll absorb it but if you're playing a casual Ness he probably won't cancel the PSI Magnet so you can punish the landing lag.
 
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Top Boss

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
344
NNID
PizzaMonkey24
3DS FC
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I don't like the matchup. Ness' braindead tools are extremely effective on us, so the progress i make in a match really doesn't seem to mean much. I put in all the work to get him to 100%, I die from back throw at 85. It's ridiculous considering how easy ness is to play. You basically shouldn't commit to much as fox, because ness is floaty, has nair, and other punish tools that KO us way too early. I feel like the matchup is decent if you're immaculate onstage.LOL
 

G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
210
Ness players love using Nair. And yes u can punish the heck out of them for using it. Just time when they are going to use shield or wait right next to them and punish. Some might try to use alot of aerials. Just time the end of there attack just right and make them pay for it. Use your speed and agility to avoid getting grabbed
 

SirShadows

Smash Rookie
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Jul 5, 2015
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SirShadows
I don't like the matchup. Ness' braindead tools are extremely effective on us, so the progress i make in a match really doesn't seem to mean much. I put in all the work to get him to 100%, I die from back throw at 85. It's ridiculous considering how easy ness is to play. You basically shouldn't commit to much as fox, because ness is floaty, has nair, and other punish tools that KO us way too early. I feel like the matchup is decent if you're immaculate onstage.LOL
Yeah he's pretty easy to pick up at low level, and you can easily get by Nairing and backthrowing in For Glory or punishing lag with PK Fire (it's quite sad.) The matchup is only good on stage as Fox has good ground game but Ness specializes in the air. Since he's floaty he should die earlier than others (like Fox lightweights) so it's basically a race to the kill. I don't specifically agree with the braindead argument at high level (I also main Sheik) as I find games harder and more stressful using Ness than my other mains, but also wins feel more rewarding.

Tip: Ness can do 2 Nairs in a single short hop so if you plan on shield grabbing make sure to wait out the second one. Down throw Fair works a lot on him too if times right.
 

yoshi8984

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 18, 2011
Messages
1,108
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Canada, Laval, Quebec
NNID
TimmyTendo
Switch FC
SW-6176-0583-0131
Ness main here, and I play this match up a LOT, both online and offline (though I sadly haven't been streamed vs a Fox yet even though my scene has quite a few lol). It's my fave MU! ;)

I STRONGLY suggest reading my post in the Ness boards about it here! ^__^

==

In a nutshell; the neutral is in Fox's hands, but most other aspects (edgeguarding/recovery/juggling) are swayed in Ness' favor. Fox CAN, and WILL die early if he's not careful. He usually will not return to the stage for free either LOL (and this is why Fox should not go offstage :p). Fox however, has the speed to overwhelm Ness and is not easy to grab unless Ness gets a good read or Fox overcommits. Conditioning and stage control are essential for Fox here!

I'm seriously SO mean to Fox tho... :p
 

G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
210
Also don't be afraid to use lasers but make sure u plan it and space it out right.
 

EPM

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 7, 2014
Messages
28
Location
Boston, MA
I struggle with this MU, and I'm working on Olimar for it just so I don't have to deal with all the ways Fox can lose it so quickly. New England has a lot of good Ness players and I've gotten to know the MU, one of my main practice partners is a good Ness.
Basically if you're offstage, you might die. Ness always has the option to spike you out of side b or up b, but the Ness mains I play usually opt to to go for a down smash at the ledge because it renders recovering to the ledge with side b completely useless, and will kill at around 70 if they charge it. It SUCKS. So most of the time you have to up B to the ledge, but then you have to watch out for PK Thunder and a well-angled PK Fire as well. It's a huge disadvantage and the only advice I have is to save your jump, and use your shine stall to try and see what edge guard attempt they want to go for, then react accordingly. One tip for the down smash edgeguard, if you recover high you can just side b over the yoyo and hit Ness while he is charging, if you didn't get knocked too far off stage.
Next, there's the fact that Ness' aerials all have ridiculous hitboxes, in particular Nair and Uair. This renders a lot of followups useless, but many Ness players throw out the aerials predictably to cover their landings, so you can just punish it, usually with a grab because if they space right they can be in shield before you get close enough for a dash attack. The main problem is Nair just makes it really hard to combo Ness, but, for instance, if you're trying to get an up tilt string at low percent, you can still get multiple up tilts by reading where they will try to Nair out of it, power shielding, and then throwing out another up tilt. I find that Ness players are more likely to try to Nair (similar to Luigi or Yoshi) out of your combos then jump out, so even when you're chasing Ness down for the next hit of your string, a well placed power shield on that predictable Nair will give you some good options. The Uair has ridiculous range too (it can outspace up tilt) and hits hard so watch out for that, but you can punish it if you shield it. I don't find that landing damage on Ness is that hard.
As far as not taking too much damage yourself, the first thing I can think of is to DI upwards and behind Ness on his down throw at low percents. He can still true combo a Nair out of it, but it's better than taking four fairs and getting sent offstage, which is what will happen if you try to DI away. Fox falls so fast that PK Fire is not an issue, you can roll out of it, or even jab through it, basically getting hit by the fire cuts off the endlag of moves, so you can like uptilt or jab faster if you're getting hit by fire, it's good for Ness players who try to read that you will roll out of fire, but not good for Ness players who are gonna try to hit you with the tip of that OP baseball bat Ness has. Around mid percent, like after 40, Ness stops having many combos, so he mostly has to rely on his aerials for damage. Some Ness players like to dash attack, which is very punishable, but most will just try to space Bairs and Nairs and get the grab that sends you offstage. Learn your paticular Ness' air movement (this will come in handy when it's time to kill) and punish those attacks, and you should be able to get a percent lead on Ness mid-stock without too much trouble.
And here's the real struggle of fighting Ness. When it's time to kill, as in when you have Ness at over 100%, the Ness player will probably wise up and start hanging back, just waiting for a chance to get a rage backthrow. This means that they will be shielding a lot, looking for that shield grab, and we all know how much it sucks when our opponent is shielding a lot. I have very little advice here, because it all depends on the Ness to make a mistake. Be VERY careful with your aerial approaches, and always try to cross ness up so that you can't get grabbed as easily. Side B is an ok option as long as you land behind them in case they shield it, watch out for short hop back air or nair out of shield there too. If they still stay in the air at all, you can try to trade an aerial with an upsmash but Uair and bair outspace it so be careful. If the Ness is good, there's basically nothing we can do to get the kill, as far as I can tell. Most of the time I end up just getting a lot of throws until Ness is around 170 and an up tilt will kill, but there's very few attacks it's safe to throw out because of the chance of getting shield grabbed and thrown. You can try to grab and up throw ness, but most of them are gonna be smart and grab the ledge to get back onstage, making it for you to Up air them, but if you've caught onto their air movements or can read an airdodge, it's pretty safe to go for. That said, the one thing to take from this section is that the only way you're gonna kill Ness is if the Ness player makes a mistake. It's sad but it's true.
This final tip is a bit crazy, since everyone will tell you not to go offstage against Ness and for the most part they're right, but Ness is actually in a lot of danger offstage after he's used his jump, and his up B isn't great, so in moments of either great confidence or great desperation, you can go for the fast fall fair to drag him down a bit (it doesn't take much, his recovery gets bad height) or you can try to reflect his up B before he hits himself with it. Ness will usually wrap the Up B around himself going away from the stage to knock him towards it, so you want to jump over to the far side of Ness and then down B. For both options, SAVE YOUR SECOND JUMP and be ready to tech in case anything goes wrong.

I think that's all I've got. Again, I struggle with this MU and I'm gonna be working on it a lot, since I only just recently realized how much I struggle with it. The alternative, and I'm dead serious here, the alternative is to get a decent Rosalina. Like if you just play Rosalina for a week, she's so effective on Ness that your decent Rosalina should be able to handle a good Ness with ease. It's not what I do, but like I said, I've opted for Olimar, because I think he covers all of Fox's worst matchups really well.
Good luck!
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
^ thats one way to do it, fair spike works too since pk thunder doesn't cover in front of ness at all, and it'll drag him down far enough that he cant recover.
 

EnhaloTricks

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Messages
197
Location
Texas
I've been practicing Ness gimps. This is very effective on computers, don't see why it wouldn't work on people. Ness is pretty easy to kill once he's used his jump
http://giphy.com/gifs/mEiwWNLQuJ72M
Ness main here.

Just wanted to say that probably won't work on a real person. Very, VERY rarely does anything like that work in this game for 2 reasons. 1) A Ness won't put PKT out that far. It's usually wrapped in pretty tight making it hard to do that gimp. 2) a competent Ness will eventually read this and wrap the PKT around the opposite way (if they're offstage on the right, they'll wrap it around counterclockwise and hit themselves upwards to the left). This is VERY dangerous cause if you get hit by the tail it's basically game over in this instance.

EDIT: To my above paragraph, I've actually never had anyone manage to gimp me this way on purpose.

Two things you can do (which are also risky) is to jump off, air-dodge THROUGH Ness and then eat the PKT on the other side, or if you're confident in your teching and they're low enough you can just eat the PKT2, tech the wall and watch as they fall helplessly (did both today against another Ness while I was DHD. They're pretty fun gimps lol).

In any case, for Fox it's best to probably go for a quick fair-drag to footstool (very good at low percents if you can get stage control and make them use their DJ) or to sit on stage and let him recover. Since Ness' recovery is so predictable a ledge trump to bair (or if they regrab the ledge dsmash) is not a bad idea either.

I don't know if doing any gimps would be worth it since I'm almost positive a PKT2 will kill Fox around 30% or so.
 
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luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
Since Ness' recovery is so predictable a ledge trump to bair (or if they regrab the ledge dsmash) is not a bad idea either.
the ledge trump bair can work, but dsmashing them as they regrab the ledge isn't an amazing idea, if you start charging the dsmash, they can extend the pkt2 past the ledge and hit you, which will probably just kill you, and if you wait to confirm that they are gonna grab the ledge, then you cant dsmash in time to hit them, its a really scary 50/50 mixup that could get either of you killed.
 

EPM

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 7, 2014
Messages
28
Location
Boston, MA
I won two sets against one of NE's best Ness mains (probably second best) the other day using a lot of falling fair drags and just getting out and in at the right time. Also only got back thrown once the whole of both sets I think. Hope they can help.
The first set is at 3:06:30 here
http://www.twitch.tv/smashonthehillboston/v/25809645
The second set is right at the beginning of this video. I had already won game one, that wasn't recorded, and then he went Lucas game 3 (bo5 for loser's finals)
http://www.twitch.tv/smashonthehillboston/v/25848593
 
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