fox67890
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 8, 2011
- Messages
- 279
I know, new thread, but give me a chance. Please~
Ok, with that aside, I feel like I could share some of my knowledge about fox with the community. So here you go. Some of these things, such as shine hopping, you should already know. Other things, such as IaI, you might not.
Just hear what I got to say, and then judge.
Please watch the video of each section and then read each section afterwards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLbsVbRIFlU&feature=youtu.be
Instant Aerial Illusion (IaI) @ 0:10 in video
[COLLAPSE="IaI"]Ok, this part might be controversial. The Instant Aerial Illusion (IaI) allows Fox to use his illusion in a similar fashion to Falco's IaP (Instant Aerial Phantasm).
For Falco, when he jumps and immediately phantasms, the game considers him to be aerial.
However, for Fox, when he jumps and immediately illusions, the game considers him to be grounded.
To get around this, I run off the ledge and illusion because you are aerial for a brief moment when you do that. You only need to be aerial sometime in the illusion. That's why if you do a grounded illusion from one BF platform to another, you get reduced lag (because you are considered to be aerial during the gap between the two platforms
Input: Dash towards ledge> Jump RIGHT BEFORE you reach it>IMMEDIATELY Illusion towards center of stage.
The reason why I say to jump is because you slide slightly forward when you do that. This small movement gives a greater chance at sliding off the stage to actually make you aerial.
I must say, however, that you shouldn't use this often. It IS more limited than Falco's IaP, as we can't use it freely whenever we want (you have to go the ledge, remember?). You have to stay very unpredictable (not like I was in that Ganon example in the video). Fox is a fast character. You can dash to the ledge very quickly when they don't expect it. Mix up with lasers and when they don't expect it, IaI them as they come at you.
We might get more out of our IaI than Falco's IaP if it sweet spots though. Uh... I actually don't recommend trying to sweet spot it though. It's very hard to do. I think IaI should be used more as an escape tool if you are too pressured at the ledge (Illusion does have some invincibility frames, so even if they hit you, you might go unharmed). If you do manage to sweet spot it though, you can do some interesting things.
It's sets up for (some of these might actually true combo, like upsmash did in the video):
Utilt
Upsmash
Dair
Boost Pivot Grabs
maybe SH Uairs
maybe nana combos
SUMMARY:
IaI can be used as a good escape tool when pressured. Stay unpredictable (you should be using it far less than Falco IaPs) and use it when necessary. If it so happens to sweet spot, combo them.
Notes:
*Illsuions from one BF platform to another also achieves this effect without the need to dash off the ledge of the platform. This is because you are aerial in the gap from one platform to the other.
*Illusion has some invincibility frames. idk how long they are or even when they actually begin.
[/COLLAPSE]
Shine Hopping @1:17 in video
[COLLAPSE="Shine Hopping"]You hopefully already know about this, but since I don't see many people doing it, I'll just throw this in. In no way did I discover this though.
When a projectile hits your shine you can hop, spotdodge, roll, or stay in shine. Imo, hopping is the best.
Learning to laser and maneuver out of a shine is very important.
For instance, Mario's like to approach with fireballs (sometimes one, sometimes two). If he only uses one, you can shine that one, hop out of it, and have an opening (there's a fireball on your side). If he approaches with two, you can shine the first, have the first fireball clank with the second one, and then be ready to react. If he's in distance, Dairing out of a shine might actually work here. Actually, if he approaches with two fireballs, you can jab the first, reflect the second one and hop out of shine, and then strike back.
Learning this technique is vital to facing characters like Falco, Mario, and some other characters. I know I full hopped out of shine in the video in those Falco examples, but learning how to short hop out of it is very important.
Summary: Shine Hopping is essential to out camping other opponents. If you can't do this, they can actually outcamp you, since lasers have no hit stun. Learning techniques out of shine is very important.
Notes:
*There actually are some projectiles that you can't hop out of. Olimar's pikmin is an example of this. I think this also includes Snake's nikita missle and the mortar part of hit upsmash.[/COLLAPSE]
Grab Release>Upsmash @2:12 in video
[COLLAPSE="Grab Release>Upsmash"]Ok, stuff gets good right here. Chances are, you already know an aerial release on MK is a free upsmash. You might also know that if you Grab someone and Immediately Pummel them right before they land, it forces an air release on certain characters.
Input: Grab an opponent right before they land and IMMEDIATELY pummel. Wait until they air break (don't continue to Pummel). This only works on certain characters.
You can force air releases on a number of characters, but only some of them you can combo and Upsmash from.
These characters are:
Metaknight
Solo ICs
Pikachu
Squirtle
Ness (we can also just cg them regularly)
Lucas (I think we can also just cg them regularly)
Game and Watch
edit: also works on Yoshi (VERY VERY strict timing)
On some of these, make sure to buffer the dash. (especially pika and Yoshi)
A big problem, however, is setting this up. One way I came up with is using an autocanceled SH Uair> Frametrapped airdodge> Grab. This seems to only work out of a nonfastfalled airdodge. The green light exists~ (Got idea from whoever made that Green light thread. I can't remember :\)
Other ways include:
+Alternating between Uairs and (Boost Pivot)Grabbing their landing
+Instant Aerial Ilusion
+Hitting someone with the ending part of dash attack (credit to Chef Fox for this idea)
+Shield Grabbing Mis-spaced Aerials
+out of a Utilt "lock"
Personally, every time I grab one of the characters this works on, I always buffer a Pummel, just in case I get lucky and force an air release. Believe it or not, if you actually scout out for landing this technique, it's tricky, but not all that hard to land.
Summary:
You can force Air releases and combo them into upsmash on Metaknight, Solo ICs, Pikachu, Squirtle, Ness, Lucas, and Game and Watch.
Notes
+For the sake of keeping upsmash fresh, don't always do this, even when you land it. I know I said you can do it out of a Utilt lock, but it might be better to do something else.
+ We also could simply just CG Ness and I think Lucas regularly. If they air break out of the CG though, perhaps you could react and upsmash them.
+It appears that on some of those characters, you could actually charge dash upsmash for a brief moment.
+There are some characters you can force air releases on, but can't combo them into upsmash, such as Kirby and Olimar. I haven't tested it, but our Fair might actually combo on some characters that have an air release that leaves them high in the air.
+This technique works on two of Fox's worst MUs. Cool[/COLLAPSE]
Bananas Combos and Tricks @4:16 in video
[COLLAPSE="Bananas Combos and Tricks"]This part and the next are kinda "iffy". I don't know too many nana combos (or set ups), but here are a few.
JC toss=jump canceled toss
JC toss> Upsmash
JC toss> Skid Grab
JC toss> Boost Pivot Grab
JC Down toss> Turn around grab> Pummel> dash upsmash
JC down toss> turn around JJCS> dash upsmash
Short down throw> Nair> Dash Upsmash
Short Hop down throw> Nair> Boost Pivot Grab (buffered?)
Some of those only work at certain percents. I'm not 100% sure if the last is a true combo. It seems like JJCS might not actually be a frame trap, so that one might not always work. I got the JC down toss idea from a video I seen from a famous Captain falcon player. I can't remember his/her name :\.
Some set ups:
Reverse Utilt
Instant Aerial Illusion
Alternating between Uairs and JC down tossing a nana on their landing.
Set ups are pretty hard though.
Some other stuff include this:
+If you predict a glide toss into you shield, you can OoS Upsmash Diddy if he ends up in range
+It's kinda hard, but if you predict a nana throw and shine hop one with it hitting diddy, there might be enough time and space to shine hop towards diddy> airdodge> buffer dash upsmash
I honestly don't know too much about how to deal with nanas though. Please share anything you know.
Summary:
Just read this section :\
Notes:
Uh, If a nanna hits your shield and you want to catch it, it might be better to fullhop catch it rather than Shorthop catch it, especially if he has another nana.
I don't know this MU[/COLLAPSE]
The Shine Spike @5:20 in video
[COLLAPSE="The Shine Spike"]This might be able to make a small return.
When you grab the ledge, you gain a moment of invincibility. If you jump off the ledge as soon as possible, you can leave the ledge with a few moment of invincibility frames. If you take these frames and use them with the invincibility frames of the shine, you can put yourself in the enemies recovery path and shine them.
I'm kinda short on examples though :\
With good reading, I think the following characters are somewhat vulnerable to this:
Bowser
DK
Link
Ganon
Toon Link
Maybe IC's Side+B
Fox's Up+B
Falco Up+ B
Wolf Up+B (might also work well vs his Side+B)
Captain Falcon
Squirtle
Charizard
Maybe Ike's Side+B if he does it close to stage level
Do keep in mind though, depending on conditions (such as percents), they might live the shine spike. The TL and DK examples show this well.
Summary:
Section was short. Read it
Notes:
None[/COLLAPSE]
Other stuff not in video
*I'm under the impression that reverse utilt is always better than a reguarly one. If you dair some, I strongly recommend that you buffer the turn around and then utilt. It combos out of dair a bit earlier, does a but more damage, has a better chance at achieving a ultilt "lock", and at mid percents it puts your opponent in a worse position than a normal utilt does. In other words, I always try to do a reverse utilt rather than a normal one when possible.
*TKD once mentioned this before. If you're fast enough, if you let go of the ledge and jump ASAP, you can land on SV's platform. Apparently, this also works on BF. On this stage, right after you let go, jump to one of the middle platforms while drifting towards it. You can airdodge for some added protection. The things is, though, we might be a little vulnerable towards the end of the airdodge. Also, you might have RCO lag, which is bad since you're jumping towards the stage on BF (rather than away from the stage on SV).Timing is strict for both.
Ok, that's all.
Ok, with that aside, I feel like I could share some of my knowledge about fox with the community. So here you go. Some of these things, such as shine hopping, you should already know. Other things, such as IaI, you might not.
Just hear what I got to say, and then judge.
Please watch the video of each section and then read each section afterwards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLbsVbRIFlU&feature=youtu.be
Instant Aerial Illusion (IaI) @ 0:10 in video
[COLLAPSE="IaI"]Ok, this part might be controversial. The Instant Aerial Illusion (IaI) allows Fox to use his illusion in a similar fashion to Falco's IaP (Instant Aerial Phantasm).
For Falco, when he jumps and immediately phantasms, the game considers him to be aerial.
However, for Fox, when he jumps and immediately illusions, the game considers him to be grounded.
To get around this, I run off the ledge and illusion because you are aerial for a brief moment when you do that. You only need to be aerial sometime in the illusion. That's why if you do a grounded illusion from one BF platform to another, you get reduced lag (because you are considered to be aerial during the gap between the two platforms
Input: Dash towards ledge> Jump RIGHT BEFORE you reach it>IMMEDIATELY Illusion towards center of stage.
The reason why I say to jump is because you slide slightly forward when you do that. This small movement gives a greater chance at sliding off the stage to actually make you aerial.
I must say, however, that you shouldn't use this often. It IS more limited than Falco's IaP, as we can't use it freely whenever we want (you have to go the ledge, remember?). You have to stay very unpredictable (not like I was in that Ganon example in the video). Fox is a fast character. You can dash to the ledge very quickly when they don't expect it. Mix up with lasers and when they don't expect it, IaI them as they come at you.
We might get more out of our IaI than Falco's IaP if it sweet spots though. Uh... I actually don't recommend trying to sweet spot it though. It's very hard to do. I think IaI should be used more as an escape tool if you are too pressured at the ledge (Illusion does have some invincibility frames, so even if they hit you, you might go unharmed). If you do manage to sweet spot it though, you can do some interesting things.
It's sets up for (some of these might actually true combo, like upsmash did in the video):
Utilt
Upsmash
Dair
Boost Pivot Grabs
maybe SH Uairs
maybe nana combos
SUMMARY:
IaI can be used as a good escape tool when pressured. Stay unpredictable (you should be using it far less than Falco IaPs) and use it when necessary. If it so happens to sweet spot, combo them.
Notes:
*Illsuions from one BF platform to another also achieves this effect without the need to dash off the ledge of the platform. This is because you are aerial in the gap from one platform to the other.
*Illusion has some invincibility frames. idk how long they are or even when they actually begin.
[/COLLAPSE]
Shine Hopping @1:17 in video
[COLLAPSE="Shine Hopping"]You hopefully already know about this, but since I don't see many people doing it, I'll just throw this in. In no way did I discover this though.
When a projectile hits your shine you can hop, spotdodge, roll, or stay in shine. Imo, hopping is the best.
Learning to laser and maneuver out of a shine is very important.
For instance, Mario's like to approach with fireballs (sometimes one, sometimes two). If he only uses one, you can shine that one, hop out of it, and have an opening (there's a fireball on your side). If he approaches with two, you can shine the first, have the first fireball clank with the second one, and then be ready to react. If he's in distance, Dairing out of a shine might actually work here. Actually, if he approaches with two fireballs, you can jab the first, reflect the second one and hop out of shine, and then strike back.
Learning this technique is vital to facing characters like Falco, Mario, and some other characters. I know I full hopped out of shine in the video in those Falco examples, but learning how to short hop out of it is very important.
Summary: Shine Hopping is essential to out camping other opponents. If you can't do this, they can actually outcamp you, since lasers have no hit stun. Learning techniques out of shine is very important.
Notes:
*There actually are some projectiles that you can't hop out of. Olimar's pikmin is an example of this. I think this also includes Snake's nikita missle and the mortar part of hit upsmash.[/COLLAPSE]
Grab Release>Upsmash @2:12 in video
[COLLAPSE="Grab Release>Upsmash"]Ok, stuff gets good right here. Chances are, you already know an aerial release on MK is a free upsmash. You might also know that if you Grab someone and Immediately Pummel them right before they land, it forces an air release on certain characters.
Input: Grab an opponent right before they land and IMMEDIATELY pummel. Wait until they air break (don't continue to Pummel). This only works on certain characters.
You can force air releases on a number of characters, but only some of them you can combo and Upsmash from.
These characters are:
Metaknight
Solo ICs
Pikachu
Squirtle
Ness (we can also just cg them regularly)
Lucas (I think we can also just cg them regularly)
Game and Watch
edit: also works on Yoshi (VERY VERY strict timing)
On some of these, make sure to buffer the dash. (especially pika and Yoshi)
A big problem, however, is setting this up. One way I came up with is using an autocanceled SH Uair> Frametrapped airdodge> Grab. This seems to only work out of a nonfastfalled airdodge. The green light exists~ (Got idea from whoever made that Green light thread. I can't remember :\)
Other ways include:
+Alternating between Uairs and (Boost Pivot)Grabbing their landing
+Instant Aerial Ilusion
+Hitting someone with the ending part of dash attack (credit to Chef Fox for this idea)
+Shield Grabbing Mis-spaced Aerials
+out of a Utilt "lock"
Personally, every time I grab one of the characters this works on, I always buffer a Pummel, just in case I get lucky and force an air release. Believe it or not, if you actually scout out for landing this technique, it's tricky, but not all that hard to land.
Summary:
You can force Air releases and combo them into upsmash on Metaknight, Solo ICs, Pikachu, Squirtle, Ness, Lucas, and Game and Watch.
Notes
+For the sake of keeping upsmash fresh, don't always do this, even when you land it. I know I said you can do it out of a Utilt lock, but it might be better to do something else.
+ We also could simply just CG Ness and I think Lucas regularly. If they air break out of the CG though, perhaps you could react and upsmash them.
+It appears that on some of those characters, you could actually charge dash upsmash for a brief moment.
+There are some characters you can force air releases on, but can't combo them into upsmash, such as Kirby and Olimar. I haven't tested it, but our Fair might actually combo on some characters that have an air release that leaves them high in the air.
+This technique works on two of Fox's worst MUs. Cool[/COLLAPSE]
Bananas Combos and Tricks @4:16 in video
[COLLAPSE="Bananas Combos and Tricks"]This part and the next are kinda "iffy". I don't know too many nana combos (or set ups), but here are a few.
JC toss=jump canceled toss
JC toss> Upsmash
JC toss> Skid Grab
JC toss> Boost Pivot Grab
JC Down toss> Turn around grab> Pummel> dash upsmash
JC down toss> turn around JJCS> dash upsmash
Short down throw> Nair> Dash Upsmash
Short Hop down throw> Nair> Boost Pivot Grab (buffered?)
Some of those only work at certain percents. I'm not 100% sure if the last is a true combo. It seems like JJCS might not actually be a frame trap, so that one might not always work. I got the JC down toss idea from a video I seen from a famous Captain falcon player. I can't remember his/her name :\.
Some set ups:
Reverse Utilt
Instant Aerial Illusion
Alternating between Uairs and JC down tossing a nana on their landing.
Set ups are pretty hard though.
Some other stuff include this:
+If you predict a glide toss into you shield, you can OoS Upsmash Diddy if he ends up in range
+It's kinda hard, but if you predict a nana throw and shine hop one with it hitting diddy, there might be enough time and space to shine hop towards diddy> airdodge> buffer dash upsmash
I honestly don't know too much about how to deal with nanas though. Please share anything you know.
Summary:
Just read this section :\
Notes:
Uh, If a nanna hits your shield and you want to catch it, it might be better to fullhop catch it rather than Shorthop catch it, especially if he has another nana.
I don't know this MU[/COLLAPSE]
The Shine Spike @5:20 in video
[COLLAPSE="The Shine Spike"]This might be able to make a small return.
When you grab the ledge, you gain a moment of invincibility. If you jump off the ledge as soon as possible, you can leave the ledge with a few moment of invincibility frames. If you take these frames and use them with the invincibility frames of the shine, you can put yourself in the enemies recovery path and shine them.
I'm kinda short on examples though :\
With good reading, I think the following characters are somewhat vulnerable to this:
Bowser
DK
Link
Ganon
Toon Link
Maybe IC's Side+B
Fox's Up+B
Falco Up+ B
Wolf Up+B (might also work well vs his Side+B)
Captain Falcon
Squirtle
Charizard
Maybe Ike's Side+B if he does it close to stage level
Do keep in mind though, depending on conditions (such as percents), they might live the shine spike. The TL and DK examples show this well.
Summary:
Section was short. Read it
Notes:
None[/COLLAPSE]
Other stuff not in video
*I'm under the impression that reverse utilt is always better than a reguarly one. If you dair some, I strongly recommend that you buffer the turn around and then utilt. It combos out of dair a bit earlier, does a but more damage, has a better chance at achieving a ultilt "lock", and at mid percents it puts your opponent in a worse position than a normal utilt does. In other words, I always try to do a reverse utilt rather than a normal one when possible.
*TKD once mentioned this before. If you're fast enough, if you let go of the ledge and jump ASAP, you can land on SV's platform. Apparently, this also works on BF. On this stage, right after you let go, jump to one of the middle platforms while drifting towards it. You can airdodge for some added protection. The things is, though, we might be a little vulnerable towards the end of the airdodge. Also, you might have RCO lag, which is bad since you're jumping towards the stage on BF (rather than away from the stage on SV).Timing is strict for both.
Ok, that's all.
