Forced Short Hop

[Reidlos Toof]

I have just discovered the #1 reason to get your right thumb off of those x and y buttons and start using up to jump! I have dubbed it, the Forced Short Hop, and it will have people aerial comboing til the cows come home, and best of all, it is next to impossible, if not completely impossible to accomplish if you use buttons to jump. What you do is this:
Press the C-stick in any direction (except up) at almost the exact same time as you press up to jump, and your character will automatically short hop and do the aerial that you pressed.

 

[DMAJohnson]

It's a nice idea, but personally I find it works just as well to tap X (or Y) and A at about the same time while directing the attack with the control stick. :/

 

[Luz]

Hum. This is really interesting, but at the same time, it's also a little overkill. I don't need to ON THE DOT HIT THEM RIGHT AS I JUMP, I'm not pro yet. Still, the idea of jumping straight into an attack is appealing. However, me and control stick jump do not mix well.

I'm guessing this works as a short hop even if you keep the control stick up in a full jump move. Because if not, this looses most of its coolness.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Yes it does luz, you can hold the control stick up as long as you like, and as long as you do it correctly you will do a short hop every time.

 

[Luz]

:D neato, I want to try this out myself.

 

[Yuna]

You know, most of us are able to press X/Y to jump and then immediately do the aerial of our choice using the control stick + A. It's called timing.

The C-stick also cannot do Nairs, still.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

This is a pretty nice discovery, but X and Y are still just really comfortable for me. I also like to do aerials with X and A at the same time, so that doesn't really help.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Apparently this is whiner hour. I don't care if you prefer to press buttons, this is just one more reason why people like me are going to be better then people like you in brawl. =)

 

[WastingPenguins]

I use this a LOT. Dashing short hops with the stick are easy-- just dash and roll the stick a quarter circle from the bottom. Anyway, it's got plenty of cool uses, especially with aerials that need to come out literally ASAP for them to finish before you land, so as to not suffer landing lag. C.Falon's dair and Fox's fair are some good examples.

 

[Bug]

Anonymity on the internet makes trash talking easy.

 

[FreakoFreako]

lol I would've done this if you told me two days ago. I just practiced Short Hop and managed to learn to do it the normal way.

How do you get to your c-stick so fast? It's really far away from the analog stick. O_o

 

[ducky285]

How do you get to your c-stick so fast? It's really far away from the analog stick. O_o

I'm guessing you use your left thumb on the analog stick and your right thumb on the C-stick?

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Anonymity on the internet makes trash talking easy.

My name is Kyle Bennett, I live in Sacramento, California, and I am part of Team Infectious, and I STILL say that this is why people like me will be better then people who use buttons to jump.

 

[Dark Crimson]

I suck at short hopping, but I find it harder to do it with the control stick. When I get Brawl I'll try forced short hopping.

 

[metroid1117]

Apparently this is whiner hour. I don't care if you prefer to press buttons, this is just one more reason why people like me are going to be better then people like you in brawl. =)

Seasoned Smashers (aka Yuna) have a huge advantage over newcomers because they understand concepts like spacing and mindgaming. You'll have to work hard at it if you want to be better than them. Being snide about skill is pointless if you can't back it up.

Anyways, your control method doesn't give you proper control of where you go in the air - sure, it lets you do aerials instantaneously, but what's the point if you can't space them without getting punished? Also, (at least for Melee,) for characters with a faster jumping animation, using the control stick to jump is difficult - try doing that with Fox, who leaves the ground in 4 frames (leaving you with 1/20th of a second to get that control stick up and down).

 

[WastingPenguins]

Anyways, your control method doesn't give you proper control of where you go in the air - sure, it lets you do aerials instantaneously, but what's the point if you can't space them without getting punished? Also, (at least for Melee,) for characters with a faster jumping animation, using the control stick to jump is difficult - try doing that with Fox, who leaves the ground in 4 frames (leaving you with 1/20th of a second to get that control stick up and down).

I think you've got it backwards IMO. In Melee, stick'ing your short hops is way easier with quick, light characters like Fox than it is for the heavies. All it takes is a quick flick. Actually maybe it isn't really "easier" exactly but it certainly is more useful. Do it like I said, by flicking the control stick a quarter circle from bottom center. Things like shffl'ing dairs and shl with Fox were better with stick hopping. In any case, Brawl short-hopping is super easy all around, even with the quickest characters, so it's not really an issue.

Anyway, I'm not a seasoned tourney vet but I am a reasonably skilled smasher and I see loads of potential in this. If you think getting your moves out ASAP isn't important with Brawl's super low hit-stun you're nuts. If you need to space differently then of course use the buttons.

 

[fireb0rn]

My name is Kyle Bennett, I live in Sacramento, California, and I am part of Team Infectious, and I STILL say that this is why people like me will be better then people who use buttons to jump.

yeah that's great. and next time you trash talk someone they're going to be buying a plane ticket to sacramento. amirite

anyways, not that great of a technique. but thanks for letting us know.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Seasoned Smashers (aka Yuna) have a huge advantage over newcomers because they understand concepts like spacing and mindgaming. You'll have to work hard at it if you want to be better than them. Being snide about skill is pointless if you can't back it up.

Anyways, your control method doesn't give you proper control of where you go in the air - sure, it lets you do aerials instantaneously, but what's the point if you can't space them without getting punished? Also, (at least for Melee,) for characters with a faster jumping animation, using the control stick to jump is difficult - try doing that with Fox, who leaves the ground in 4 frames (leaving you with 1/20th of a second to get that control stick up and down).

Just because I don't have a million posts or pay for a subscription to this site doesn't mean that im not "seasoned." I mean, obviously I'm no Ken or Isai, but who the hell is? Apart from that, have you actually gone into the game and tried it yet? Because if not, then you have no right to talk about what it does and doesnt do. Second, this is brawl discussion, not melee discussion, and as far as I know, this isnt possible in melee, and if you think how good you are in melee has anything to do with how good you can be in brawl, you are in serious need of a reality check.

 

[shadydentist]

Okay... does hitting jump with x/y then hitting the control stick at the same time not work or something?

This applies mainly to people who claw, of course.

 

[-Aether]

This is actually no different than a good player using X/Y button, unless some mechanic of sticking makes you jump faster or something.

Basically, if I have 5 frames to let go of X/Y to do a short hop, I'm going to be able to let go and get my thumb to the A button or C-stick + press the jump button in 5 frames. In Melee, Foxes Short hop was 2-3 frames. In Brawl, nearly every character is 5 +. This is more than enough time to press the button and move your hand. Also, I need to remind everyone that you cannot input moves until 1 frame after the crouching animation involved in jumping is complete. So if you have 5 frames to let go of X/Y, you cannot input a command until frame 6.

Anyone who could shorthop double lazer with fox (which is the large majority of high level smashers, atleast in the MD area..) in melee shouldn't give a **** about this.

I for one have no problems doing it with X/Y. Maybe it is perhaps you who are the slow one, obligating yourself to lose D.I. momentarily to jumo, when you could just speed up your right thumb..like everyone who SHDL'd in melee.

Also, buffering doesnt apply for the jumping animation. Not everything in this game can be buffered; this is pretty evident if you **** around with for a few seconds. So, please dont give me that buffering non-sense.

If you dont believe me, choose toon link, and do a short hopped D-air. Give any command when the sword is in the ground. You cannot buffer things during the better portion of this lag. Also, if you jump and C-stick twice in the same direction as fast as you can, you dont do two aerials..

Buffering = situational and depends on the moves. Sometimes I think buffering is just the game giving players more leniancy with when they can input attacks. If you're at the last 1-2 frames of lag, and you input a command, it seems to go off. But it only works with LAG, not with animations like the jump-crouching animation.


/flame shield

 

[mugwhump]

Wow, I was expecting another poopoo topic, but this actually works! Good job.

I mean it's not like it would be impossible to accomplish this with x/y (especially with buffering), but it's easier this way, and I can't see any disadvantages to this method. Except, of course, for being unable to use it for nairs and uairs, which kinda sucks.

Anyways yeah, good find.

This is actually no different than a good player using X/Y button, unless some mechanic of sticking makes you jump faster or something.

Basically, if I have 5 frames to let go of X/Y to do a short hop, I'm going to be able to let go and get my thumb to the A button or C-stick + press the jump button in 5 frames. In Melee, Foxes Short hop was 2-3 frames. In Brawl, nearly every character is 5 +. This is more than enough time to press the button and move your hand. Also, I need to remind everyone that you cannot input moves until 1 frame after the crouching animation involved in jumping is complete. So if you have 5 frames to let go of X/Y, you cannot input a command until frame 6.

Anyone who could shorthop double lazer with fox (which is the large majority of high level smashers, atleast in the MD area..) in melee shouldn't give a **** about this.

I for one have no problems doing it with X/Y. Maybe it is perhaps you who are the slow one, obligating yourself to lose D.I. momentarily to jumo, when you could just speed up your right thumb..like everyone who SHDL'd in melee.

Also, buffering doesnt apply for the jumping animation. Not everything in this game can be buffered; this is pretty evident if you **** around with for a few seconds. So, please dont give me that buffering non-sense.

If you dont believe me, choose toon link, and do a short hopped D-air. Give any command when the sword is in the ground. You cannot buffer things during the better portion of this lag. Also, if you jump and C-stick twice in the same direction as fast as you can, you dont do two aerials..

Buffering = situational and depends on the moves. Sometimes I think buffering is just the game giving players more leniancy with when they can input attacks. If you're at the last 1-2 frames of lag, and you input a command, it seems to go off. But it only works with LAG, not with animations like the jump-crouching animation.


/flame shield

You are completely mistaken! Attacks and other actions can indeed be buffered in the jumping animation, and every other animation. In fact, I haven't yet found any situation whatsoever where you can't buffer whatever you want.
You can buffer anything, any time, and your character will perform the buffered action the first frame they're capable of doing so.

You're right that the buffering window isn't that long, however... it's maybe, I dunno, 5 frames? So yes, you wouldn't be able to buffer anything till the end of TL's dair recovery animation, and if you press the c-stick twice as quick as you can, the second command will be too soon to get buffered.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Apparently this is whiner hour. I don't care if you prefer to press buttons, this is just one more reason why people like me are going to be better then people like you in brawl. =)

Did you know that technically this technique does not make you any faster? That's because many competative players are actually able to move their finger from the jump button to the c-stick before the jump comes out. That's basically how Marths do retreating SHDFs in melee. You gain no real advantage in doing this other than feeling more comfortable with how you're controling your character. For those of us that are comfortable with X and Y already, then switching to this will both not give us any speed advantage, but also make us feel less comfortable for a while. There is no reward for using the control stick to jump, and the jump button is actually superior because you're no longer taking up the control stick (which can then be used for DI and aerial spacing).

 

[falco-hokage]

Most people don't realize that if you tap x or y to shorthop, you can then buffer the up command on the analog (instead of using the c stick to do their air moves) while they are in the bending of their knees right before the jump,this gives you the fastest possible uair attack, you also dont have to waste that time going from pressing x or y to pressing up..... on the c stick, left analog or whatever you use.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^But then you momentarily lose the ability to space your attacks, so we'd rather just take the time to speed up our thumb and have that extra little advantage.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Seasoned Smashers (aka Yuna) have a huge advantage over newcomers because they understand concepts like spacing and mindgaming. You'll have to work hard at it if you want to be better than them. Being snide about skill is pointless if you can't back it up.

Anyways, your control method doesn't give you proper control of where you go in the air - sure, it lets you do aerials instantaneously, but what's the point if you can't space them without getting punished? Also, (at least for Melee,) for characters with a faster jumping animation, using the control stick to jump is difficult - try doing that with Fox, who leaves the ground in 4 frames (leaving you with 1/20th of a second to get that control stick up and down).

This post is correct. Learning to short hop 100% with X/Y is better than using this stick because the stick doesn't allow you to air control correctly.

 

[jdub03]

The foot whats your friend code. I want to play you.

 

[metroid1117]

if you think how good you are in melee has anything to do with how good you can be in brawl, you are in serious need of a reality check.

... No comment.

The key point is that you have less control of your spacing. With less technical aspects to focus on, Brawl will be based around your ability to read your opponent and use well-spaced attacks so you don't get punished. Compare the amount of control you get if you want to do a running BAir or a retreating FAir with your technique versus jumping with the X/Y button. You have much more control spacing your attacks when jumping with the X/Y button.

Also, "seasoned" Smashers don't go around and say how they will be better than others.

 

[Tyr_03]

first of all not all how good you are at melee DOES affect how good you are at brawl. Spacing, mindgames, strategy all still apply. The games are different in physics and technique but not in concept. More on subject, I find that using the analog as a jump is not terribly useful and doesn't really give you a speed advantage as long as you have fast enough fingers to use x/y. I do however use up on the analog stick for the second jump of some characters' moves such as Ness's fair just because it makes it easier to get the move out quickly (for an interesting effect in Brawl) and because in melee I used the analog second jump to use Ness's double jump cancel. It is not only an old technique but not so much an important one so much as an issue of personal preference.

 

[Crispy4001]

You know, most of us are able to press X/Y to jump and then immediately do the aerial of our choice using the control stick + A. It's called timing.

Yeah, it's really not that difficult.

I remember in the Wifi-Wars Ganondorf vid they said you'd need to use the left-stick to jump and the c-stick to down-air so you wouldn't land with lag. But I've been able to manage just fine rolling my thumb from Y to A. Works like a charm.

 

[Umby]

HEY GAIS I FOUND A NEW TECHNIQUE CALLED slide transition.

 

[ph00tbag]

This is an interesting technique, but you should really take note that it has limited use, and there are many more options open to you, which may even be more useful. The people who can do either will still beat you because they know how the game works, not because they can do one silly maneuver with limited use.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

... No comment.

The key point is that you have less control of your spacing. With less technical aspects to focus on, Brawl will be based around your ability to read your opponent and use well-spaced attacks so you don't get punished. Compare the amount of control you get if you want to do a running BAir or a retreating FAir with your technique versus jumping with the X/Y button. You have much more control spacing your attacks when jumping with the X/Y button.

Also, "seasoned" Smashers don't go around and say how they will be better than others.

No, YOU have less control of your spacing. If you actually use up in your real play, you learn to space just fine with it.

Like hell "seasoned" smashers dont say they will be better then eachother. What rock have you been living under? Do you actually play with other people or do you just come on smashboards to spout your "wisdom"? Smashers are cocky, arrogant *******s. For god sake, Isai sandbags like a mofo and if thats not arrogance, I dont know what is.

 

[metroid1117]

Smashers are cocky, arrogant *******s. For god sake, Isai sandbags like a mofo and if thats not arrogance, I dont know what is.

Apparently, you don't know Smashers personally. The Smashers I've met are cool people to hang around, and I bet if you show this to any big-time Smasher (Omnigamer, Phanna, etc.), they'll refute your statement.

There are other people besides me who have said that this tactic doesn't allow you to control your spacing as effectively as using the X/Y buttons. If you want to use this "Forced Short Hop" (all short-hops are forced, so I have no idea why you would name it that), go ahead. Just don't sell it as letting...

people aerial comboing til the cows come home, and best of all, it is next to impossible, if not completely impossible to accomplish if you use buttons to jump.

Sell it after beating well-known players and winning tournaments with that jumping method.

By the way, people who play with the "claw" grip (Mew2King, I believe) don't have trouble at all with jumping and attacking right after, let alone any good Smasher who has conditioned their right thumb to move right from X/Y to the C-stick while their character prepares to leave the ground.

Also... (from a previous post you made regarding getting Final Smashes with no items on from http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=151374)

I don't think that it can happen in tournament legal matches. I've already played like 200 matches and have 4 stocked people plenty of times and no one has ever gotten a pity final smash.

In tourney legal matches for Brawl, we play 3-stock. Unless you JV 4 stock people (beating them without taking ANY damage), your post is false.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Apparently, you don't know Smashers personally. The Smashers I've met are cool people to hang around, and I bet if you show this to any big-time Smasher (Omnigamer, Phanna, etc.), they'll refute your statement.

There are other people besides me who have said that this tactic doesn't allow you to control your spacing as effectively as using the X/Y buttons. If you want to use this "Forced Short Hop" (all short-hops are forced, so I have no idea why you would name it that), go ahead. Just don't sell it as letting...



Sell it after beating well-known players and winning tournaments with that jumping method.

By the way, people who play with the "claw" grip (Mew2King, I believe) don't have trouble at all with jumping and attacking right after, let alone any good Smasher who has conditioned their right thumb to move right from X/Y to the C-stick while their character prepares to leave the ground.

Also... (from a previous post you made regarding getting Final Smashes with no items on from http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=151374)



In tourney legal matches for Brawl, we play 3-stock. Unless you JV 4 stock people (beating them without taking ANY damage), your post is false.

And all those people use the buttons to jump, therefore they are unpracticed using up to jump.

so are you stalking me now? That smells very much like trolling. Not to mention that you are proving my point about arrogance as we speak. Just because YOU play 3 life matches in brawl doesnt mean that that is what tournament legal is. Quite frankly, it is downright asinine to assume there is any such thing as tournament legal for brawl, as it actually came out in the united states mere days ago.

 

[Umby]

Excepting the ones we imported.

 

[Skeet11]

I never felt comfortable using X and Y to jump. Although you can't nair with this I'll definitely try it out, I think it could help me.

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Excepting the ones we imported.

well of course, but only a very small percentage of the smash community imported the game, and even then its only been 2 months. Thats still no where near enough time to deem what is and isnt tourney legal, I mean it took like 2 or 3 years for people to decide if items should be aloud in tournaments or not.

 

[Umby]

well of course, but only a very small percentage of the smash community imported the game, and even then its only been 2 months. Thats still no where near enough time to deem what is and isnt tourney legal, I mean it took like 2 or 3 years for people to decide if items should be aloud in tournaments or not.

Aye, I'm just pointing out an influencing factor in this case. Right now it looks like standard casual play (from what I've seen) would at least warrant the rule of 3 stocks in a tournament match, for example.

 

[metroid1117]

And all those people use the buttons to jump, therefore they are unpracticed using up to jump.

so are you stalking me now? That smells very much like trolling. Not to mention that you are proving my point about arrogance as we speak. Just because YOU play 3 life matches in brawl doesnt mean that that is what tournament legal is. Quite frankly, it is downright asinine to assume there is any such thing as tournament legal for brawl, as it actually came out in the united states mere days ago.

I'm disproving your points; this is how I write when I debate. (By the way, it's been proven that people misunderstand each other online 50% of the time b/c you can only imply the tone of the other person, so I may be misunderstanding you as well.) I looked at your posts because of your 1) low post count, 2) your reply to Yuna about how this technique will make you surpass him, and 3) your belief that this technique gives you equal spacing as using X/Y to jump; this indicates to me that you are new to the boards and to competitive Smash in general (which I confirmed via your "introductory" thread). I was merely assessing your credibility - I get concerned when non-credible sources post "new" techniques for the masses to try out. A troll is "someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)). I was backing my reasonings with logic (on the issue of spacing) and, regarding your statements, trying to make you see that your own statement of

I don't care if you prefer to press buttons, this is just one more reason why people like me are going to be better then people like you in brawl. =)

was in itself arrogant. Yuna, although he (?) was sarcastic with his response to your topic, was simply pointing out what probably all Melee and SSB64 veterans had in mind when they viewed this topic - it's really not that hard to get used to using the C-stick right after using X/Y.

(Forewarning: no matter how dry or condescending the following sounds, I'm attempting to articulate my ideas in a calm tone.) On the issue of spacing: you get more control with where your character goes in the air by using the X/Y buttons because you don't have to use precious time tilting your control stick up and then a direction; rather, you can just input a direction WHILE jumping, which gives the X/Y buttons and inherent advantage. Yes, I DID try it out, and I feel that you get more directional influence by using X/Y. You may feel the opposite, but consider that NOBODY in Melee (and Smash 64, for that matter) uses the control stick to short-hop. This is not only because it was very hard to do with certain characters (aka Fox), but also because of the spacing issue that I said earlier. Also, pros WILL change their gamestyle if it will benefit them - when waveshining, for example, people realized that it was easier to put their control stick back in neutral before starting another wavedash, and thus had to switch their muscle memory. If it will benefit their gameplay, they WILL make the switch over to a different control style (much like in tennis or in ping-pong). Pros play competitively not just for fun, but also to win - if something helps them win, they will do it.

However you play is your own choice - I only ask that you listen to other people's replies in this thread and judge for yourself which way will help you in the long run.

About the tournament standards - as people have pointed out, there have been tournaments for Brawl ever since the release of the Japanese version, and those tournaments have been 3-stock matches, setting the precedent for tournaments to come. It's logical - even 3-stock matches can go on for more than 5 minutes, which can really stall a tournament. Even if there are no standard tournament rules as of now, it is most likely that this rule will stay simply because of time constraints.

The point is, I apologize for sounding condescending in my previous posts. However, you must realize that you will get this attitude from others if you continue to hint at arrogance and ignorance with statements such as...

- the one above

My name is Kyle Bennett, I live in Sacramento, California, and I am part of Team Infectious, and I STILL say that this is why people like me will be better then people who use buttons to jump.

if you think how good you are in melee has anything to do with how good you can be in brawl, you are in serious need of a reality check.

Just because YOU play 3 life matches in brawl doesnt mean that that is what tournament legal is.

Most people will judge someone on Smashboards to be a newbie or not judging by their post count instead of looking through what they actually posted. I advise that you avoid posting statement such as the ones I quoted above so that you don't run into trouble with other SWF members.

An a lighter note, welcome to Smashboards. Good luck with using this style of jumping - if Wi-Fi lag gets reduced, I'll look forward to playing friendlies with you someday.

 

[Enoch-Fox]

if you think how good you are in melee has anything to do with how good you can be in brawl, you are in serious need of a reality check.

if you think how good you are at pushing buttons has anything to do with how good you can be in brawl, you are in serious need of a reality check.

if you think how good you are at general spacing and mindgames has anything to do with how good you can be in brawl, you are in serious need of a reality check.

must construct additional lolz