For Serious Ness Tier Discussion

[Timotee]

It is time to shut up the other character forums about how all we do is claim Ness is top tier without any proof. While we all know that when SYYG gets figured out, he will be in Broken tier, which will be at the top, for now he is far lower than he deserves, and I think it's high time to figure out a realistic place we should try to get him to.

Top Tier:
Fox
Falco

High Tier:
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle Tier:
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Doctor Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf

Low Tier:
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

22nd. Seriously? I know we all claim he is Top Tier, and maybe he isn't(I won't insult Simna by confirming it), but at the very least I think he should be moved up to below Luigi. Who does he have to displace to accomplish such a feat?

Mr. Game and Watch- While he is one of 2 characters that managed to get a title, I still think Ness beats him out. Sure, GaW has incredible vertical recovery and DI, but his dodge, shield and roll are awful. Some of his aerials aren't L-cancellable. And he's light. While his edge-guarding is pretty spectacular, I still think Ness has more going for him.

Zelda- Fair bair fair bair fair bair care bear stare? Horrible wavedash, horrible run speed, horrible jump. Lotsa lag recovery. Below-average projectile. Bottom tier taunt(seriously, it is the worst in the game, most people don't even know she's taunting). Her neutral B can do some spiffy set ups...to fair or bair. And some people think Ness is a one-trick pony.

Yoshi- Ok, this guy is a bit tougher to justify spot changes. He's heavy, when he jumps he gets heavier, and his eggs compete for broken tier with Ness. Dodgy hitboxes for his attacks make him a little harder to keep spaced properly, and he's got wicked priority when attacking from below. But once you learn to space against him, he's combo-city thanks to his weight. Ness' aerial game stands at a higher priority and kill-ability, and Ness can jump out of his shield. Take that unevolved dinosaur!

Pikachu- He's got good moves, great recovery, good speed. But Ness can do something he can't: not get chaingrabbed to hell and back. Really, Pikachu's weakness has nothing to do with comparing to Ness' moves, it's all about the fact that Pikachu is a prime repeated-hug partner. I don't like where Pika is personally, but to get above others I think Ness deserves to surpass, Pika is in the way.

Young Link- He's fast, he's got projectile power, and the most ridiculous taunt. Too bad his hookshot is so much shorter and his up-b is a paper-cutter. Young Link has some definite potential, but utilts of a good chunk of characters can be timed to best his dair, and his short-sword means that he loses Link's range advantage. Then again, he does eat Peach for breakfast, but that shouldn't be enough to keep him above Ness.

Roy- Here's the guy I really think needs to drop. His sweetspot negates his range, he falls like a brick, and he's ugly. Sure, fire = hit stun. Whee. Ness' bat tipper > Roy tipper. Disjointed hitboxes in the air don't mean much if getting close enough for good damage means he has to be within the range of his opponent's attacks. Yes, his neutral B edgeguards well. Yes, his DED can put on damage. But his recovery is a big weakness, and fast-falls feed into the combos of so many characters. Roy for bottom tier.

DK- The final guy I will claim, at the moment, Ness deserves to pass is the big ape. Bum is a little bit of a roadbump here, but that's o-tay. DK's shield is weak, he's fun to combo, and his vertical recovery could use some work. Great grab game, and ruins fast fallers, but so does Ness. DK has power and weight, but even meteor cancels are a hard save with his borizontal Up-B. DK may have some hidden stores of potential, but at the moment he's a cargo-combo based monkey that finds floats to be a threat.

I must note: Tiers just show who wins more. This means more Ness' need to get out there and show that Ness can win. Claiming he's grrrrrreat may boost our morale, but until we go out there and start stomping with him, he won't move up. I want to prove that Ness deserves to move up like we claim, so recruiting more to his cause with reasoned arguments, followed by using our inflated force to start winning sounds like a plan. Think I'm dumb/smart/missed something/ugly? Then speak up. It's time we proved Ness is not a garbage character.


...Fuzzy Pickles!

 

[Impp]

I don't think anyone in the lower tiers has an over all advantage on Ness 1 v 1. He's actually a pretty good counter against most the low tier. He gets owned by the high tier though. If their was a low tier only list, Ness would be on top.

 

[Earthbound360]

I agree with, he is WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY too low. I mean, come on, what are his glaring cons?

Light?
No, this is judged by appearance. He is small, but almost as heavy as Mario who has average weight.

Slow?
No way, we say he is very fast because he is. People who dont know Ness never think he is that fast, but DjC is faster than shuffle, and who hass the overall fastest DjCing ability? That's right, Ness. Only his B moves are slow.

Crappy Recovery?
Another misconception by people who dont know Ness. With good PKT skill, he is a decent recovering character. *Points at that section of my guie*
BTW, in the recovery tier list, he is middle tier.

From what I know, these are the bad things I can come up with.

Mediocre B moves
Yes they're slow and laggy, but if the hit, they often provide a good enough effect. PK Flash as an edgeguard is mostly an instakilll. PK fire can make grab setups (and we all know how bad a$$ Ness' grab game is) and sometimes YYG thingies. PSI Magnet is good for team matches and Corneria. I'm definatley not saying they're the best, but they aren't useless. Now PK THUNDEr... well...

Range
Okay, Ness has a little range trouble. Especially with his grabs, but IMO, it's not so bad. We can still hit people right? With JC grabs and Shieldgrabs, we can still catch a foe, and his bat almost has the same forward range as Marth and Roy. His dash attack is undoubtedly the longest range on in the game, and his fair can (I think) outrange Marth's fair.

Why all of this? Well, G&W is low becuase he is slow, like Zelda too. Pikachu and Ylink are light, and DK has terrible recovery. Roy makes me laugh and Yoshi also has below average recovery.

I think Ness is low because of appeal. People want easy characters to learn or ones that look coo. Ness is a Charlie-Brown style character who takes a long time to get good with. This makes people not wanna play him, take him to tournies, win, and raise his place.

Don't get me wrong though, I think Ness is a s3xy beast.

 

[indie_dave]

i thought fox was hard to learn, but today when i told the best smasher i know that i can waveshine and drillshine he said 'so, everybody can'.


HAHAHAHAHA

Ness for top-tier on the hardest to learn charts fosho, but broken on the omfg he's so much fun tier list. MORE NESS WINNERS IN TOURNAMENTS DOOO IT!!!!!

 

[thesage]

Doesn't Ness get heavier when he DJs too? I though it was for all djc'ers.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Doesn't Ness get heavier when he DJs too? I though it was for all djc'ers.

Nope, just Yoshi

 

[thesage]

Somebody should change that fox shinespike guide then... it's wrong. It's in the fox everything thread or something.

 

[Lt. Killjoy]

You know, it really doesn't matter what moves Ness has or how heavy or light he is. The only thing that really affects the tier list heavily is how well each character does at tournaments. Therefore (even though playing Sheik or Fox will win more matches) if Ness gets used at tournaments as a main more often, he will rise on the tier list. That is the only way my friends to get him to the top!

 

[Timotee]

Right you are, Killjoy. I suppose I was hoping more Non-Nessians would read this and give up their Ness-hating. They just need to know the only thing keeping him down is not using him. The only reason everyone thinks he's bad is because there are so few willing to learn that he isn't. Hopefully they'll see that and our ranks will swell. In the meantime, suit up, for war!

(or brawl)

 

[Wave⁂]

IMO, he belongs....

somewhere between Ganon and Luigi.

 

[thesage]

I think he should be right below ganon in the low tier. He gets destroyed by all the high tiers so he has to be allowed in low tier tourneys.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Ness doesn't need to be moved if his winning records remain the same.

The tiers list doesn't reflect upon the character itself,but the use of the character in tournaments,and the winning rate of the character.

If people don't play/win with him,he isn't going to ascend,and the bottom line is that ness players in general are rare in the tournament community.But I share your pain,as I wish Mario would be higher on the tier list,but that won't happen any time soon. T_T

 

[Timotee]

You're right of course, EPF. The idea of this thread was more towards giving people who have too short of attention spans to read the guide an idea of the fact that Ness doesn't suck, and with work can be a decent character who could work a good distance up the rankings. I just want people to realize he isn't some garbage write-off.

As for where I think he could go, I still say below Luigi and Link, because I see them WIN full blown tournaments, while I never hear of Ness victories. Maybe if I practice enough I can change that next week. Maybe he has advantages over them, but that's up to us to prove.

 

[Deleted member]

I always put ness as middle tier, but not so much anymore. he has low tier pretty secure in terms of matches, but the low tier characters above him do better vs better characters.

for starters, he's not as good as

Top Tier:
Fox
Falco

High Tier:
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle Tier:
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Doctor Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf

Low Tier:
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong

period. he just isn't. from then it comes down to character exploitations. ness gets edgeguarded, crouched, shield camped, and spammed. hard. other low/bottom chars get crouched like roy, spammed like zelda, edgeguarded like yoshi. Ness just seems to have the worst mix of all of them. Luckily for ness, he's small and his combos are fairly ****.

 

[Wave⁂]

well....i think i agree with you, Mow, but i also believe you may be exagerating a bit. not in a "OMFG, hehe, ness is uber bad, he sucks!" kind of way, though.

 

[Deleted member]

no, it's just that his offense and defense are severely crippled due to the game mechanics. Had this been ssb64 he'd be ****, he's so much faster than he was in ssb64. Unfortunately, this game has a lack of shield stun, stronger DI, the ability to crouch, etc. and they're just bad news for ness.

ness's speed is somewhere between falco and sheik. his combos are pretty nice all around. however, you can't deny that ness is lacking in range recovery and simplistic defensive techniques. Ness is also highly prone to being fagged gayed and cheesed out of stock faster than bowser.

Ness isn't low because of appeal, he's low due to his character design. Every tournament you're always going to play that one guy that just plays doc and uses nothing but WD back crouch pill cape and shieldgrab. Ness has massive problems with that kind of stuff. Same w/ peach turnip spamming.

While I'm on it, this is the primary reason that I've never understood all the unnecessary hype for YYG. It's so impractical to hit a player with it, especially someone with a campy play style that ness can't touch. To me, YYG has the about the same utility as Link's super jump does for stalling, minus that Link can do it by himself, which is actually better for between stocks. I think I'm just more tournament oriented than the rest of the ness boards though.

As for saying Ness sucks, I have mixed feelings there. On one hand he's very fast, does some solid damage, and has pretty good edgeguarding. I like him, I play him pretty often still. On the other hand, you know your character is a gimp when all you have to do to edgeguard him is jump at them and not attack, take 8 % and recover. If on the first day the game came out in december 2001, had you compared say ness's forward tilt and sheik's forward tilt, the difference is still pretty horrific. Or how about his dashgrab stumbing? he's the only character that does that. HAL clearly knew that Ness wasn't going to be the game's best character, I have no idea why half the ness players seem to think he's top tier.

And how embarassing is it for those people? I heard "Ness is top tier" for a good 6 months, then the MBR did a tier list vote and moved him to bottom (I had no vote or imput on the last list). Instead of going up, he went down to BOTTOM. What a HOT DlCKING to the community. Now, everyone in the ness community wants ness to place higher in tournaments. EVEN IF ness was a common tournament character, there's very few good nesses. It's like what, mofo, me and simna. Guess what, all 3 of us have something in common: we learned pretty much jack from the ness boards. The Ness boards really don't offer useful help. Our front page has 7 YYG topics. 7. Let's take a look:

Ness players who want to improve drastically have no option but to learn everything themselves. Even if there was a standard technique to beat say, sheik's shieldgrab to death CG (there is by the way) you can't find it on these boards anyway. How do you expect ness players to improve in tournament standings? me and mofo play fox and falco in tournaments. looks like it's up to simna. No wonder Ness got moved to bottom.

 

[N.OW]

I main ness in tournaments, and almost everything Umbreon said was right. There is no one who has been even moderately successful with ness in tournament play (except possibly simna but ive never seen him play against top tiers other then fox) so you really have no one to look to for help. And umbreon i would love to know how to beat shieks chaingrab to death, as i just see ness vs shiek as an impossible matchup. Its gotten to the point where i lose every tournament against sheik while i beat the other top tiers with low difficulty, unless they are really good.

 

[Deleted member]

idk last time I played neil in ness vs sheik I 2 stocked him, but the match before that I won like last hit. IM me if you want help, I prefer that.

 

[Wave⁂]

which is why i main Samus.

...

anybody here see the match of Simna vs. Zelgadis? it's a mazing, it's on youtube.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

lol like every match of mine vs. zelgadis on youtube is a goof off fest

check out our fox dittos...its the most laughable thing i've heard of

Ness is also highly prone to being fagged gayed and cheesed out of stock faster than bowser.

lol@cheesed

On the other hand, you know your character is a gimp when all you have to do to edgeguard him is jump at them and not attack, take 8 % and recover.

I don't really think the pk thunder eating specifically is a downfall of Ness' at all, but rather the slow speed of the recovery. Basically, anytime a person could jump out and take 8% to kill Ness, they could have just as easily hit ness, taken 0%, and then recovered.

Instead of going up, he went down to BOTTOM. What a HOT DlCKING to the community. Now, everyone in the ness community wants ness to place higher in tournaments.

Mow you can drive a car right? Well I can't. This would be so much easier for us if you came to my house and we travelled to mroe tournaments^_^.

 

[Timotee]

Am I a bad person if I use psi magnet to gimp in Ness ditto matches?

 

[Shuriken]

I played Ness a lot at the last tournament of about 70 people, I think I ended up tied with 4 people for 13th, but I did use fox to make sure I got out of pools >.<
IMO the crap grab range doesn't matter because his wavedash grab is pretty quick out of shield or after fair.
As for top tier, fox is a rough matchup if only because of the uair combos, Falco can go well for Ness, and he gets destroyed vs. Sheik (Marth is painful too).
@Umbreon, are you sure that you can't DI straight up out of the CG at about 30%? It works for me every time, only problem is you have to eat an up smash if they see it coming. Course, the people I play with Ness don't have much experience against Ness, so that might be why.

I figure Ness should be top of the low tier, and Luigi and Link should be moved into middle tier. They should just make mid tier larger, because Link is obviously a tourny usable character.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik can CG ness to 80 flawlessly unless you know some tricks. that wouldn't do it.

I do not drive @ simna.

 

[thesage]

You get out of shieks chaingrab by djc an airdodge (that's what I do at least and I go to tourneys). I agree with shuriken that ness should be the top of low tier. Yyg is overrated but since the only stages I play on at a tournament is either corneria or green greens (if corneria is banned.)

The reason I was asking about what stage I should ban is that I was kinda hoping people would say why and what stages are good.

If you're saying the Ness boards are useless mabye you should try to do something about it and help out with the super guide. That way the won't have to be any more threads besides people asking the nesses to be rated.

 

[Deleted member]

I haven't learned anything about ness besides YYG since 2003. I have the character mastered, posting here will not improve my talent.

As for a guide, I wrote a huge Ness guide, also in 2003. But I got a lot of crap for it when I said that Ness is faster than Sheik, so I took it down. If I'm not mistaken, I sent the first quarter of it to simna a long time ago? I don't exactly remember.

Ness is still faster than sheik, I'll disprove any disbelievers.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I do not drive @ simna.

fu

cking
sh

it

 

[Wave⁂]

hmmm..... how come you can swear and we cant?

 

[thesage]

He's a mod duh... Mow is right. The only thing helpful here is the super guide. Everyone work on that.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i cant swear im just censor dodging

 

[Wave⁂]

oh, i get how he did it. i think cleaning p the YYG topic would be really helpful, right Simna?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i'll clean up the yyg topic next tmie we make a breakthru on yyg or syyg^_^ otherwise, i suggest we just gather stuff up and include it in the superguide^_^

 

[Wave⁂]

Fine. i'll go do that. ^_^ to you to.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

As for top tier, fox is a rough matchup if only because of the uair combos, Falco can go well for Ness

*Falls out of chair laughing*

 

[Wave⁂]

can someone tell me why these not-serious not-ness people are here? please?

 

[Hoboman725]

I take personal offense to the topic starter calling Roy ugly.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

can someone tell me why these not-serious not-ness people are here? please?

Do I not have the freedom to post here?

But I will get serious if I was being offensive.

To be serious,Ness doesn't have it good against a Falco,and there is more that 1 reason why Ness gets ***** by Fox(Even though,I feel reminded of that infamous"Ness Infinate",Lol)

But in my previous post,I already explained why Ness really isn't suited for anything other than it's current place on the tier list.And as Mow stated,the majority of shared techs on the Ness forum are'novelty'.How can anyone expect better Ness players if they don't have a proper source.

Alot of things on the forum is about the Yo-Yo glitch,which really isn't that useful.The populas must spread more information on useful techs with Ness,which are less situational.

That's all I have to say. :D

 

[_clinton]

Spring Break is fun so far (I wasted some people in SSBM, a few of those matches were with Ness, however Random is a jerk sometimes).

 

[thesage]

Alot of things on the forum is about the Yo-Yo glitch,which really isn't that useful.The populas must spread more information on useful techs with Ness,which are less situational.

I agree with him. The big names in the Ness game need to open up. This can't continue into brawl.

BTW I predict that Ness (or any clones, if any, of him) will be unpopular. How many pros in the ssb64 tournament scene main Ness?

 

[Timotee]

I take personal offense to the topic starter calling Roy ugly.

If you take offense because you look like Roy, then I apologize.

If you just take offense on principle, may I direct you to the fact that of the Fire Emblem names in Smash, Marth is the one with the pretty boy looks. I'm sure Roy would look alright in a romantic comedy, but I doubt Roy would ever try to pick up chicks while Marth is around, unless he likes disappointment.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

lol @ this entire topic and everyone in it except for mow. what is wrong with ness mains anyways XD