Footstool is inherently poor design

[Vro]

I am all for incorporating Brawl techniques and designs into PM. I think new mechanics are often beneficial, creating new options that did not exist in Melee. Two of the best Brawl input/mechanics present in PM (imo, ofc) are ledge jump and reverse aerials. Ledge jumps are only slightly overpowered with certain characters and with certain edge canceling properties on certain platforms. Otherwise, it really is just a nice buff from its previous form, an almost unusable option. Reverse aerials allow for a much wider variety of approaches without being on the same level as previous approaches. Reversing takes a deliberate moment to do, often a moment too long to perform on every approach. This makes it a deliberate decision, especially with spacing, when you reverse aerial. It even creates greater opportunities, like reverse upsmash.

Footstool is completely new and different from previous Smashes and is completely new in its form. There is absolutely no risk to performing the input and there is nothing but great reward. There is no precedent for this type of command nor is there any precedent for this kind of option select.

In essence, you should be rolling the D-Pad or spamming whatever custom control you have for Footstool at every frame of the game. There is absolutely 0 penalty for performing an incorrect Footstool input. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

So whether you are on the ground or in the air, your opponent should be mashing this command while performing combos that may or may not value the fact that you have been footstooled or not. When you footstool someone, you have enough time to stop spamming or completing the combo you were once performing and you get to watch your opponent's character squeal like a little ****ing ***** for being under you.

Brawl rewards you for being above players. If you were to be above a character in Melee, you are about to get *****. Why is this "option select" an air superiority? Why is the most efficient way to use footstool the abusive way? There are no strategies when optimization is not ambiguous.

 

[Mithost]

The precise timing, position, and actual effort that would need to be put into mashing the button makes up for the lack of drawbacks. Also, footstool isn't actually that good unless you are already ahead or you make it the main goal of your combos and setups to get it off. As you said, being above someone in melee is a death sentence. Footstool has no hitbox, no armor, no evasion, just a tiny little chance that your opponent will not perform anything until you come into range to do the action. If you end up landing it, what happens? Small momentum comeback? Dropped combo? It really doesn't change the game for what it's worth.

TL;DR: Footstool isn't worth the button you have to mash to make it work

 

[TreK]

Those very same points could apply against DI. Why would you not be DIing at every frame of the game ?
And I don't think you'd convince anyone here that DI is a bad mechanic.

Just because it's an option select doesn't mean it's bad.

 

[Kally Wally]

Footstool is solved by doing literally anything. If you do manage to pull one off mid-combo, good job, enjoy the world's worst meteor smash.

I get where you're coming from, and if I'm being honest there should probably be a forced delay input like teching has, but so far I'm not convinced that it's amazingly useful outside a few, relatively specific circumstances.

 

[Vashimus]

And yet I haven't seen anyone other than Reflex use this inherently poor mechanic in design.

 

[DMG]

Footstooling isn't that great overall. If I'm in a position to get a footstool, I figure why not try to land the attack I'm probably trying to setup with footstool in the first place?

You see Reflex do it with Wario because that character actually gains something from footstools (can follow through with Dair), and the character is mobile enough to land them in a myraid of scenarios. What's the point of Mario doing footstool in the middle of his combo? Toon Link? G^W?

I agree that it's dumb you can spam the input and there's no punishment, but it's not a big deal because footstooling generally isn't worth much for the average character. If you had the time to footstool, assuming you have to keep up with the opponent in momentum during the combo, you probably are better off finishing the combo with something that knocks you away instead of trying to do god knows what. You also have to be careful that they can't retaliate, because people only get "vulnerable" footstool when they are doing nothing. If I throw Bowser upwards and he starts an aerial, if I footstool him it will not interrupt his attack. Which again ties into what I said: if you have the time to safely land it, chances are you also had the time to do a decent attack as well. Wario is undoubtedly the best footstooling character overall, and he's an oddity because plenty of combos of his start with the opponent around his height/sometimes under after Fair or Nair. He doesn't lose much time by drifting over top their bodies and footstooling. Most other characters gotta come from under, or you're starting from the stage and gotta running jump through them. Or if they DI away you won't be able to properly follow up with footstool, etc. Wario's got the perfect tools to use it.

 

[Strong Badam]

FYI, I don't think there's a PMBR member that doesn't want a fail window implemented in some way or another (similar to teching). It's a coding limitation at the moment.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Those very same points could apply against DI. Why would you not be DIing at every frame of the game ?
And I don't think you'd convince anyone here that DI is a bad mechanic.

Just because it's an option select doesn't mean it's bad.

That's a terrible analogy.

You can be mashing footstool in the air not giving a **** the entire game regardless of what anyone's doing and still land it with zero punishment or commitment.

DI isn't a button, it's an analog input that you have 360 degree control of, and it's on the stick that you just so happen to do everything else with.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

For all it's worth, the opponent isn't affected by the footstool if he is doing pretty much any animation caused by Attack, Special, or Shield, which is pretty much all the time unless you're hard reading/outplaying the opponent and/or comboing into it. The opponent could be in the endlag of a massively slow aerial and they won't move downward from the footstool. The opponent continues to do exactly what he was doing before, and you've just launched yourself high in the air directly above them.

As a result, most footstool attempts that don't push the opponent (and even some that do!) just put you in an awful position. As you said, being above your opponent in Melee is one of the worst places you can be (and it's about as bad a place in Brawl, as an aside...), so even ignoring the fact that there is no "fail" window (though current fail windows like teching are already enormous, so who cares), it's definitely silly to say that there are no risks associated with the mechanic.

For all the "no-risk, great reward" you're suggesting, can you point out any examples where this has shown to be a problem? Or are you just theorycrafting and knee-jerking this reaction?

EDIT: Also, DMG, G&W actually has the lowest shorthop footstool height in the game and can combo into stuff like D-Air reasonably easily. Toon Link (and other item-spawning characters) have some cool stuff with AGT afterward.

 

[Vro]

To say that footstool's weakness is it cannot land while the enemy is in active frames is hardly saying it is a weakness. Footstooling is not the first approach, it is always a cover. If you are getting hit because you are going out to footstool someone while they have the opportunity to attack, you are doing the same kind of gambit with running grab in the neutral game. You can just wait or bait them to be in a bad position. You have absolutely no risk except poor reaction while your opponent is recovering. The very fact that you have all your options and additionally an impossible to error-whiff footstool, how can you not say there needs to be a reaction to this kind of mechanic.

Everyone wants to say it's underused and not exploitable and everyone is saying hurr only Reflex or only Warior can do these things. It doesn't take theory crafting and knee jerk reaction to know that people will practice good techniques and setups with footstool over time. What inherently bad about the design is that there is absolutely no reason not to use it. Like, 0. Only human error or stupidity make it a poor option.

Even DI has limitations because it is the same ****ing stick for offense as it is for defense.

To hear the notion of Footstool is possibly getting buffed or Footstool is working as intended is a goddamn travesty. Wasn't footstool inherently built into jump back in Brawl and then put onto a different button to add more skill? What is the skill to a infallible input? I have no commitment to whiffing my "air grab" and going to my 2nd option.

 

[standardtoaster]

it was changed to a different input because people almost never intentionally meant to footstool when double jumping

 

[Vro]

That same design made it so you couldn't footstool someone without the chance of using your double jump.

 

[Mithost]

Why does there need to be the chance (chance being a keyword here) of someone being horribly gimped for trying to land a lackluster 'meteor smash' that will rarely do anything to help momentum?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To say that footstool's weakness is it cannot land while the enemy is in active frames is hardly saying it is a weakness. Footstooling is not the first approach, it is always a cover. If you are getting hit because you are going out to footstool someone while they have the opportunity to attack, you are doing the same kind of gambit with running grab in the neutral game. You can just wait or bait them to be in a bad position. You have absolutely no risk except poor reaction while your opponent is recovering. The very fact that you have all your options and additionally an impossible to error-whiff footstool, how can you not say there needs to be a reaction to this kind of mechanic.

Everyone wants to say it's underused and not exploitable and everyone is saying hurr only Reflex or only Warior can do these things. It doesn't take theory crafting and knee jerk reaction to know that people will practice good techniques and setups with footstool over time. What inherently bad about the design is that there is absolutely no reason not to use it. Like, 0. Only human error or stupidity make it a poor option.

Even DI has limitations because it is the same ****ing stick for offense as it is for defense.

To hear the notion of Footstool is possibly getting buffed or Footstool is working as intended is a goddamn travesty. Wasn't footstool inherently built into jump back in Brawl and then put onto a different button to add more skill? What is the skill to a infallible input? I have no commitment to whiffing my "air grab" and going to my 2nd option.

I'm not sure you get what is being said. It's not that it can't land while the enemy is in active frames; it's that it lands while the opponent is unaffected while you still jump from the footstool, meaning you're high up in the air while the opponent is still doing whatever they want (which happens to be going for a juggle at that point). As much as you've talked up the idea of being above the opponent as a terrible place to be, how can you say that this is not an obvious flaw/limitation of the mechanic?

I am unconcerned with the idea of "a cover" and also generally disagree with the idea that it's always used with something else being the best option if the footstool fails. I sometimes go deep offstage with the intention of footstooling an opponent where a miss means I'm forced to just attempt to recover (as an aerial immediately following a missed footstool would ensure my death). There are definitely ways of attempting to use it that aren't as simple as "if the footstool doesn't work, just hit them."

As far as being inherently bad simply because there's absolutely no reason not to do it, you could say that for a lot of situations. Sweetspotting the edge when coming from below, for instance, would fall under the same category, but we can't make every single scenario in the game a deep mix-up with at least two reasonably useful choices to make. L-Canceling and wallteching are other perfect examples of something that has absolutely no reason not to use it, but no one is flipping tables because of it.

The purpose of having it separate from the normal Jump button is to prevent situations where you accidentally footstool when you just wanted to jump. Perhaps having a "Jump only" button and a "Footstool/Jump if not a footstool" button would appease you?

 

[trash?]

I'll admit, I'm 100% down for an input delay like teching for footstooling, but in its current form, footstooling is... still very situational at best

a lot of it comes down to P:M hating you for being above someone, which evens itself out. on one hand, yes, you CAN get stuff like a rest off of a footstool on wario when you're jigglypuff, but at the same time, if you're above a wario player, they should be outspacing you with his uair to begin with, and if you get on top of them for a rest, then that's you winning the spacing game

 

[Vro]

There are ways it can be used best, which is why is a good technique. There are no ways it can be used worst, which is why it is bad design. Even if you footstool someone in a "disadvantageous" spot, the opponent doesn't gain anything.

 

[Juushichi]

He gains the fact that you did a footstool that didn't work and that you are above him, maybe.

If they're doing something that is unable to be footstooled, it's not like the person below goes into the footstool animation. I've had plenty of times recently when I went down for a footstool (a whole lot of no inputs except footstool btw) and then got gimped because my read was wrong and I was Game and Watch above a likely better character.

I probably should have just daired. :x

 

[trash?]

honestly, I can see where he's going with this. footstool, in its current form, is kinda janky, and even if not fully unbalanced, is still something worth changing before P:M finalizes, to make it a proper mechanic, and not a half-working carry-over from brawl. ofc, SB already said they're down for that and it's just a programming challenge than anything else, so here's hoping someone figures that out

 

[TreK]

DI isn't a button, it's an analog input that you have 360 degree control of, and it's on the stick that you just so happen to do everything else with.

Even DI has limitations because it is the same ****ing stick for offense as it is for defense.

You two don't cheat enough at this game.
Turn off tap jump.
Dash with diagonals.
Strafe with diagonals.
Profit.
It's called automatic DI for a reason eh

Btw, I'm not arguing that footstooling is a good mechanic in PM, just that if it's bad, it's not because it's an option select. We have plenty option selects already (teching preemptively whenever you do an upB, anything that involves a hit or block confirm, and of course, automatic DI) and nobody sees anything wrong with them.
Brawl's footstool was better, because you lost your double jump if you failed it. But due to the accidental inputs that the Melee guys could apparently not do with (seriously guys...), they modified it and it became a worse mechanic. The obvious solution would be to have a 'jump' and a 'jump/footstool' button, but apparently, programming is not as easy as game design (biased, I'm a programmer lol).

 

[KayB]

As a result, most footstool attempts that don't push the opponent (and even some that do!) just put you in an awful position. As you said, being above your opponent in Melee is one of the worst places you can be.

But in certain match ups it could really help. Puff's vertical coverage is very poor and ideally one of the best places to be is above her as long as you're not on a platform to be in the perfect position to get ***** by u-air. Just throwing that out there.

it was changed to a different input because people almost never intentionally meant to footstool when double jumping

Actually, is it possible to code the game so this is at least possible to do? The reason why I don't implement footstooling into my game is because trying to use a separate button whether it be x or the d-pad just feels super awkward and seems to be too much trouble to learn and get used to for what its worth. I'd actually use footstooling more often if it was the same as Brawl.

 

[standardtoaster]

fwiw we do want to make a button configuration for jump and footstool/jump eventually

 

[ph00tbag]

Those very same points could apply against DI. Why would you not be DIing at every frame of the game ?

Because... you are DIing at every point in the game?

???????????

Beeteedubs, the limitation of footstooling is that if you do it on the ground, you taunt.

 

[TreK]

Because... you are DIing at every point in the game?

Pretty much, yeah. Aren't you ? You should.
Just turn off tap jump, and learn how to do all your fancy movement by strafing and dashing with diagonals instead of just forward/backwards. It's not optimal DI by any stretch of the imagination, but it's still much better than not doing it. And you can still adjust this preemptive DI on reaction just in case.
It's even better than in Brawl, because in Brawl you'd interrupt this technique whenever you'd do a dtilt, spot dodge or whatever. But P:M has got crouch canceling so it's not even as bad as in Brawl. In P:M, the only times your guard should be down is when inputting a fast fall, or a platform drop. (and moonwalking ? not too sure about this one)

 

[ph00tbag]

I don't think you understand my point.

Neutral DI is still DI. It is physically impossible not to DI a move. The only question is whether or not your DI choice was the right one.

 

[TreK]

Oh, I thought that was a genuine question.
Fair enough.

 

[EpixAura]

*Maps footstool to R*
*Presses R nonstop when in the air*
*Drops every combo because remembering to press R nonstop while doing standards combos is a lot of mental effort*
*Drops controller because R button starts jamming*
*Ragequits, because I can't footstool anymore*

 

[DMG]

I only find this useful on Wario because loldair. Buff footstool combos plz

 

[Mr.Pickle]

There are ways it can be used best, which is why is a good technique. There are no ways it can be used worst, which is why it is bad design. Even if you footstool someone in a "disadvantageous" spot, the opponent doesn't gain anything.

I wouldn't go as far as saying its "bad design", but it has room for improvement. Yeah that is true that if you footstool someone in a disadvantageous spot the opponent doesn't gain anything, but you don't get anything out of it either. So you didn't do yourself any favors ending your string with something that does no damage, and at best resets to neutral.

Don't take this the wrong way vro, I get where you're coming from and agree to a point. Footstool needs a repercussion from misuse in the future. The optimal choice I think would be to give back the risk of losing your double jump, but still have the option for it to be mapped to a specific button. Though as strong bad said, its a coding limitation that they have yet to break, which is unfortunate.

 

[666blaziken]

" What inherently bad about the design is that there is absolutely no reason not to use it."
so by that logic, you are saying that L-canceling is bad design right?

 

[cannedbread]

oh yes lets get this **** started

 

[\Apples]

" What inherently bad about the design is that there is absolutely no reason not to use it."
so by that logic, you are saying that L-canceling is bad design right?

Almost. 2 things make L-canceling a good mechanic:
1. A downside is that L-cancelling and teching share the same fail window.
2. It rewards players for having a strong reaction time. (i.e. when the player successfully L-cancels despite a timing deviation from their initial prediction via connecting or not connecting with a body or shield, paying attention to their character's position (Sonic, Wario, Metaknight dairs and FoD platforms), etc.) It also punishes players for failing, there isn't really a gray area here. (This is a rare true case of black and white, IMO) This also ties in with #1.

 

[Kally Wally]

I know you can L-cancel with Z, and I don't think there's any fail window for l-cancelling - you can just mash the button, to my knowledge.

Technically, you can just mash Z during every SHFFL with no repercussions. Even if you get hit, since you're not pressing Z, you can still tech.

 

[666blaziken]

Almost. 2 things make L-canceling a good mechanic:
1. A downside is that L-cancelling and teching share the same fail window.
2. It rewards players for having a strong reaction time. (i.e. when the player successfully L-cancels despite a timing deviation from their initial prediction via connecting or not connecting with a body or shield, paying attention to their character's position (Sonic, Wario, Metaknight dairs and FoD platforms), etc.) It also punishes players for failing, there isn't really a gray area here. (This is a rare true case of black and white, IMO) This also ties in with #1.

that's... odd, the way I learned how to master l cancelling, was to mash the L button while attacking at the same time. I would do this until I got the timing down (easy to tell in SSBM if using link's down thrust). When I got the timing down, I didn't need to mash the button while attacking anymore, but I don't remember ever being punished for trying to L cancel, because there is no risk as long as the attack animation is still going on.