Flowchart?

[theproject2212]

Hey everyone... ive been playing Ness for quite a while now, but i dont really post much on the forums, i usually just take in everyone elses tactics and strategies and incorporate them into my playstyle.

Anyway i thought i would be a good idea to make a legitimate flowchart kind of thing for Ness. Ive seen them for characters like Snake, DDD and Sheik, and i think it would help many players looking for tactics in different situations.

Please tell me if you think its a good idea or not. Everyone from the Ness boards could contribute their ideas. I was planning on making a preliminary one and then my fellow Ness's (you) could help tweak it or we could all just start from scratch and then put it all together. Im hoping this topic will be good for discussing Ness specific tactics and for making a final product.

I think since Ness is placed in the lower part of the tier list, people dont develop his metagame as much as a Meta Knight or Snake. Seeing how much posts there are on the Meta Knight boards, i thought i would help contribute back to the Ness forums.

Feedback would be great! Thanks

 

[kennypu]

what do you mean "flowchart"? like a metagame development list, where it shows what level you stand when playing a character? I believe we have one of those, its just buried somewhere, let me go dig it up :3

EDIT: I found this one: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189121

 

[theproject2212]

this is the one i found for sheik. id like to have this kind of visual chart.

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q436/saviorslegacy/decaychart-1.jpg

 

[kennypu]

ohhh something like that. interesting. but confusing. lol

 

[theproject2212]

lol yeah i was thinking maybe something easier to read than that. I thought something like that would be useful for new players and experienced players. its visual and it could put everyones ideas onto one picture.

 

[Eagleye893]

Dtilt is gonna be insane... Everything can branch out of it except psi attacks and fsmash. Fair leads into it if autocanceled (I think it's a true combo if the opponent lands close enough). Dtilt>jab is true. Pkt tailwhip>pkt head and pkt2 are both true if done right. If not, a string. Dtilt trip leads to all but fsmash and dtilt hit without tripping leads to several things string-wise.

Aerial... Fair>nair is true at lower percents, but string otherwise... I believe. Nair bair and fair can lead into the other aerials except dair with a string. Some of those lead-INS require a fh or dj from sh to work. Utilt>utilt works as true for a very short time. Uair>utilt works as a true combo at early percents. Fair autocancel (to me meaning the first few hits, because you have significantly less lag after it) leads to jab or grab fairly consistently, but I'm unsure of whether or not it is true. Pkfire pillar can almost always lead to a grab. If they di the bolt, you aren't getting the grab. Dthrow>fair/pkt/etc is a string. Uthrow>pkt is somewhat of a string.

I've gotta focus on my project...

 

[theproject2212]

im working on a preliminary one right now, and its really REALLY bad but i just want to everyone what i am aiming for. I insist that everyone points out my mistakes and what i missed so that it gets better and better each verison.

 

[Neon Ness]

The thing I don't like about flowcharts is they seem really limiting.

Like it's almost telling you "In Situation A, only do X, in Situation B, only do Y and Z" etc. That could lead to being predictable.

Have you ever heard of the term Flowchart Ken in Street Fighter?

Lols aside, look how there are only a small pool of moves in the situations presented. Easy to read, easy to punish.

I think it's better to try unusual moves in unusual situations. In which case I don't know if a flowchart is really needed

 

[kennypu]

LOL!!
yeah, being limited is bad. imo, when in doubt full jump nair to get out of the situation x]

 

[Yink]

im working on a preliminary one right now, and its really REALLY bad but i just want to everyone what i am aiming for. I insist that everyone points out my mistakes and what i missed so that it gets better and better each verison.

I thank you for doing it, and we will once we see the chart.

I'm actually kind of excited to see it.

 

[theproject2212]

okay this is what i have so far... obviously im missing ALOT of stuff but please do tell me what you think.

EDIT: I also didnt want to start with PKT but i had to start somewhere. Its not like Ness has a move similar to Sheiks ftilt (unless im really stupid and completely missed it)

 

[xoxokev]

looking good, but very messy... i'll try to make one also

 

[Levitas]

more complete flowcharts look something like this:

That game's options are somewhat more limited too, so ours might be bigger when fully expanded.

EDIT: sorry about stretching the page lol

 

[theproject2212]

yeah im skill discovering the beauty of dtilt and utilt. i apologize for how unorganized (and the flowbreeze logo) it is... i randomly downloaded some trial flowchart maker.

i also was thinking about the "limiting" factor to flowcharts and i think that it is limiting if you follow the flowchart exactly, but i believe its best use is to use ideas and strings and combos to improve your game.

jw what game is that flowchart from?

 

[Eagleye893]

dtilt is insane... nobody knows yet. xD


We also need to make a team flowchart thing.... THAT, my friends, would be insanely huge. Like impossible.



so starting on the flowchart. I say NEVER start it with a single move. Start it by asking "what type of opponent is being used against you?" then have the options of "campy," "aggressive," "marth," "ICs," "energy projectile user/spammer," "Non energy-projectile user/spammer," Close range char," and a huge list of stuff like that. It'd be difficult to lump everyone together. ICs don't fit anyone, Ike is close range, Marth doesn't fit anyone because he barely outranges and out WHATEVERs basically anything from us. Also, Falco isn't too different from many CG'ers in the beginning, so create a minor group with CG'ers.

After that, put recommended uses. Those that spam energy projectiles I would say jump back and PSImag is the best option, but you could also approach, wait, PKT from a SH that distances yourself slightly, or PKFire if close enough. The stage also makes a difference. If you are on a stage where you start close to your opponent, the beginning options may be different.

Approach can be everything.

Run towards opponent on ground

shield when near

Shield-dashgrab
OoS SH/FH Fair (combined, because they essentially accomplish the same thing)
OoS SH Nair
OoS FH Nair
OoS Usmash
OoS FH PKfire (moving backwards)
Spotdodge
Roll Backward (not recommended, but CAN help)
OoS SH Dair
Drop shield

dtilt (my favorite. let the shield slide you a bit and cover, then if the opponent does something dumb, dtilt madness > grab > uthrow > pkt or FH whatever)
utilt (if close and low percents, but also really high percents.)
ftilt (if slightly distanced)
FSMASH!!! (super mindgame)​

dashgrab
Dash-attack (need super spacing)
SH Fair (start from the run, but retreat as much as possible)
SH Nair (if they aren't shielding, puts some pressure. Mostly punish something or as unexpected. Approaching with either uair or fair ending it)
SH AD (not recommended most of the time, but could lead to something...)
SH Dair (slightly approaching... mostly if they shield)
FH PKFire (Retreating. Puts some pressure on shields, also if they spotdodge or are airdodging to the ground and you can time it right)
FH Fair (If they are airborne. Also retreat if unsure. Approach slightly [start nearer the opponent] If you know you can hit and follow with something)
FH Nair (gives good options and puts you above basically everyone's grab range. Any aerial can be done out of it and still land, but dair has to NOT FF. Airdodge for mindgames to the ground and follow with a utilt or dtilt or jab combo or shield or whatever)
RAR SH Bair (space right and you put great pressure on your opponent. mostly for those with shorter grab ranges. also mainly for the punish.)
RAR FH Bair (airborne opponent, but can also be used similar to FH Nair... only problem is dair won't get in before reaching ground)
RAR Every aerial said before (RAR FH Nair makes it easier for a landing bair, RAR SH Nair is better for Uair to go off better, RAR SH fair... PSHH... THA's Stupid..., RAR SH DAIR... not too useful)
Hyphen Usmash (okay for the punish. Can do shield pressure but not really. Only if their shield is super down and you can easily poke it)
Reverse Hyphen usmash (super mindgame)​

That's only approach. It all is super-dependent on what your opponent does...

If I were to make this, the page would need to take up a huge poster in order to be legible and still contain everything.




just my words on some things. This is a time-consuming task. Good luck!

 

[Levitas]

Eagleye, that list is categorized by options, rather than situations. A full teams flowchart for ness would be way bigger than just a poster if you wanted to actually cover all contingencies, I'd expect.

 

[Eagleye893]

I was going to comment something as a correctIon to my fail there... But I don't remember now that my phone ran outta battery on me. I'll post what i was going to do later.

 

[Meccs]

Just look at what 5 mins in paint can do

 

[Eagleye893]

Best flowchart ever?

No, but close.




I guess this flowchart is taking forever because of how cool ness is.

 

[theproject2212]

I guess this flowchart is taking forever because of how cool ness is.

no cus i bought starcraft lol

but still a very valid point

 

[Dajayman]

Flowchart does indeed seem limited, but if we got a big enough flowchart like the one Levitas posted it'd be a bit better and we could share options we have in certain situations.