Floating, Doting, and Showboating: The Peach AT thread

[TimeSmash]

Hey everyone!

So far, we've being doing a lot of good analysis recently in terms of Peach and her MUs, specials, and such. This thread serves to talk about how Peach can use the ATs of this game in general to her advantage, and arguably more important the ATs that are specific to her. If this topic gets a lot of hits, then I might expand it over time to talk about each of Peach's individual moves. There's another thread I made in the PM Zelda boards that had a lot of success, and has only died down due to Smash 4 and us not being able to really write much since 3.5 is on the way.

Bascially, here is how this guide will work. We will talk about a topic for two weeks or so, the first topic being about Toss Lag Cancelling. And then we can either put the next topic to a vote, or I can choose it if people don't want to do that. This guide is unique in that I myself don't get to play the game competitively that often, and am much better at theory, so I won't be able to contribute that much to the topics for a while. More importantly though, this guide will focus on a community effort and so we need your input for it to survive!!! Put things you think are helpful about a topic, mostly general info, but if a certain AT or move works well in your case against a character, please note it. After we conclude the topic, we'll shift to the next one and I will work on the OP with what we have come up with. I'm also posting up an Idea Board in the OP later for things that could make this guide better--stuff like what you want to talk about next, or links to other threads that would help, etc. Never be afraid to request an idea! You can suggest them whenever, since we'll be switching topics all the time. Suggesting an idea doesn't really count as going off-topic so don't feel bad or anything haha.

Anyways!! THIS WEEK will be about Toss Lag Cancelling, an AT specific to Peach where she can cancel her aerial landing lag by pressing Down B with a Turnip in her hand. This will cause Peach to immediately throw her Turnip upon landing, allowing her to quickly follow up.

What do you guys think about this move? How do you use it? I can really only do it well when I'm floating, so I'd love to know how to improve it.

 

[Hameed Ziabari]

The reason you can 'only do it well while floating' is cause you can't do aerials with a turnip in your hand if your not floating.

Anyway, there are a lot of resets you can do. If you land a floating Dair, you can use the turnip to hit them again and reset at certain percents, which can lead to dash attack, fair or nair.

She has more use of it than link and toon link. Although link and too link can cancel their arrows into bombs, it's only useful for zoning purposes.

It isn't as game breaking as people say it is. You're still stuck for 20-30 frames throwing a turnip. It is hard to punish through, and is useful for returning a game back to neutral.

 

[TimeSmash]

I want to experience more with Z dropping the turnip then instantly catching it with an aerial, landing that aerial then TLCing. Thoughts? Alternatively, you could throw it up or even to the side, but then you kind of have to wait it out or do other stuff when waiting for it.

@ Dark.Pch and @ M Meru. interested to hear what you guys think since you're like the head honchos here right now haha

 

[Dark.Pch]

One of the ways you can use TLC is for pressure. You can nair/fair to a TLC. If the turnip hits at low %, on most characters, you can get a Downtilt if they don't block. Nice frame trap I like to due when people sleep on the range. Or at higher % you can Z grab to floating air attacks, or catch it with a short hoped air attack.

When you have all this down, its time to mix **** up. Once you have your opponent condition to Block the TLC, you can do an air attack spaced like fair/nair, and then run back to a reverse jump cancel throw. to snip a roll or an approach. Mix and match this to make your turnip game insane. But that is not all you can add into it.

You can Dair a shield and move behind them to a Z drop. If it hits, you can Zgrab it or grab it with an air attack. if they shield, mix it up with TLC and reverse jumcp cancel throw.

Now that you have that down, lets add some movement to that. Use the quick realse floating to the ground to quickly move/stop your dash. I call usually call it a persudo wave dash but I think I might start calling it quick float release (QFR) Now with this it makes it hard for your opponent to tell what you gonna do. So add this with all that I just said I and you will be hela confusing. Along with a sick turnip game. if you are really good with recatching turnips, it save you the trouble of having to get another one and your neutral game being on point. This is a good way to stay close to the enemy and be safe.

You have alot of frame traps and set ups like my dtilt one. You can also airdodge to this and instantly cancel the ledge. This is good to do against moves like Paluneta's Reflecter. You air dodge right throw it downward and TLC to get a free punish. Its really good to get close to

 

[Airgemini]

Thank you for the great thread, @ TimeSmash
I'm still very much getting used to this technique. I honestly haven't found my comfort zone in using this where I could use a different option instead, it's just kinda there. It does make me feel safe when I space Fairs though. I feel like this technique is amazing with a Saturn in hand. Apparently it shield breaks with stitches too. Jigglypuffs begone.

 

[TimeSmash]

Wow everyone thanks for the quick feedback. And @ Airgemini I completely forget about Mr. Saturns. If the opponent shields, you could definitely break it and then follow up with all SORTS of stuff. If you're near the edge when this happens and charge and FSmash, you might even be able to score an earlier KO. It might be possible to land the USmash sweetspot on larger characters if they have their shields broken as well, but I would have to test that, or someone else could.

I guess I never considered how valuable recatching is for this technique. Would Light Turnip make TLC more useful?

 

[Smockers]

I believe unfortunately that you cannot TLC with Mr. Saturns or Bob-ombs because you can't throw them with down-b. Mr. Saturn can shield break opponents easy on his own anyway.

I also tested the stitchface shield break setup that @ Airgemini mentioned myself. It seems pretty legit. Here's a replay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWUcs-BdDpc The fair will likely make them shield, and it seems you're free to throw the stitch while they're stuck in shield stun. :o

The easy recatching of light turnips with aerials and such is pretty interesting in terms of TLC, yes, especially in the neutral spacing game between you and your opponent. Yet I wanna say their rather weak strength and slow speed are kind of turn-offs. I think there is decent utility to be found there though.

I'd also like to hear others' thoughts on the hitstun-canceling aspect of it. At mid percents I find it great because my immediate response to any hit is TLC, and the turnip usually hits them because they're still going through whatever ending lag there is on the move, or they just don't expect it at all. At higher percents can we TLC a strong hit and then Peach Bomber to survive longer? I've tested it to some success, but I'm not totally sure yet.

 

[Dark.Pch]

You can not TLC with other items. Only with a turnip.

And I'm gonna play around with her custom moves today. D1 might stream in a few so if you wanna check it out, just follow his channel so you can know when we live.

www.twitch.tv/D1mx.

 

[Meru.]

This AT works the best with Fair imo. It allows her do jump upwards, float, and then do a Fair towards her opponent. This is an amazing spacing tool if you jump backwards since you’ll be able to avoid a lot of moves during Fair's start-up, the range and power is great and you'll still be safe on shield when spaced decently. Being able to do a landing Fair that is safe on shield is really really good.

The downside to this is that you have to have a turnip inhand, and usually I'm standing pretty far from my opponent when I plucked a turnip, so I'm more inclined to just throw the turnip instead of doing Fair thicks. On top of that, it's still somewhat unsafe on whiff even when canceled. That said I really love this bug, but since I'm afraid it may get removed I'm not relying too much on it still. I hope it's going to stay in the WiiU version and if it does that's when the **** is gonna happen.

I haven't experimented with airdodge cancels or being able to cancel out of histun either for the same reason.

 

[TimeSmash]

TLC is a blessing for using Fair. I haven't really tried that many hitstun-cancelling things with it, mostly because I forget you can do that? What's a good option out of TLC'd hitstun? Nair seems like a solid choice

 

[Meru.]

I think just second jumping is the safest option since she still gets sent away a little while throwing the turnip, and her second jump is very high so she will immediately avoid a lot of stuff. Nair may also work at times, but because you're still flying away during the throwing animation, you're probably a bit too far to hit/dodge them. Nair is a good GTFO and combo breaker move if they're very close to you, so of course you could use Nair in such a situation.

I haven't experienced too much with it though so don't take my word on it .

 

[TimeSmash]

Healthily bumping this. Would it be good if we talked about the uses of QFR?

 

[Dark.Pch]

 

[Nuttre]

Is that not Floatdashing, or am I mistaken?

 

[RESET Vao]

I'm not a fan of your video intros Dark.Pch but the content is flawless, super helpful. I didn't even know about QFR, gonna get that all up in my game asap.

 

[Dark.Pch]

That's the first time I heard anyone have some problem with my intro. But least the is are helping out people so that's what matters.

 

[RESET Vao]

It's minor stuff man, I can skip past it to the content that I really appreciate you uploading. It's just a bit long to me, but no biggie. You're doing good stuff for the character, always have.

 

[BoTastic!]

It was peach's technical ability in brawl that made me wanna use her over Mario sometimes. Despite movement options being decreased in smash 4 I'm glad Peach has stuff like QFR. Makes her still more fun than other characters <3

 

[Jobe]

I've been doing a fast dash dance with peach since release by inputting: <-- <-- --> --> <-- <-- --> I'm curious if this is widely used tech. Only certain characters seem to be able to do this like ganon and falcon. This dash dance is much faster than her regular <-- --> <-- --> input. The timing is strict but once you get it it's pretty easy.

edit: did some research and it appears to be "dance trotting" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LISSQnPoio0

 

[InfinityZERO]

I'm not a fan of your video intros Dark.Pch but the content is flawless, super helpful. I didn't even know about QFR, gonna get that all up in my game asap.

Yeah, I agree with this. I love your videos Dark Peach, but a minuteish for an intro is extreme. Don't people usually make it like 5-10 seconds?

 

[Piano]

Well, you can just skip it... if you hover over the play bar you can know when it'll end.

 

[Macchiato]

There's still Bomber Ledge Cancelling where you Peach bomber and the ending lag cancels on the ledge. It was more useful than brawl but should still be here.

Jump Cancel Fast Fall

Parasol Ledge Cancel

Platform Float Cancel

 

[marc0polo]

There's still Bomber Ledge Cancelling where you Peach bomber and the ending lag cancels on the ledge

Along the same vein, there's this tech.

With regards to floating, a jump input will cancel that "skidding" animation that you get after performing a dash, but you can hold down at the same time to insta-float. This means that you can bait out a response by dashing in and floating out, possibly for a nair/fair follow up. Pretty much a Peach-specific dance trot.

 

[MiniSmasher]

Not sure if this is the best place to post this and it's probably already been discussed before (I'm new to competitive smash) but I've found something that seems quite useful. Down-b has three uses when floating with a turnip in hand. It throws the turnip, cancels float and puts you into fast fall all simultaneously. I played around with it for a bit in the lab and if you do this with the correct spacing, you can immediately reach the ground and begin dashing so that you're almost next to the opponent when the turnip hits them. This combo'd into dash attack or a grab at low percents. I've not seen anyone do this at all but I feel like this could be a nice approach option for Peach since it covers the air and if the opponent shields you can dash grab them before they can act, or attack if the turnip hits.

This probably isn't even noteworthy but it's just something I thought I'd share. The fast fall turnips throw float cancel might have some other uses Possibly a nice mix-up kill option.

Edit: I managed to get it to true combo at 125% on Zelda into Dash Attack for the kill. Seems to work at any percent. Tricky to time it right but it's a nice kill set-up and you can just grab if they shield and B-throw for the kill. Not sure how well this works on other characters, though I imagine it won't work or will be very hard on small characters like Pikachu.

 

[J-Prep]

So heres something neat id like to thing i found. I was messing around in the lab with Z dropping a turnip while doing a ground float. Due to peach's animation while floating she holds the turnip behind her. Since the turnip is active on frame 1 you essentially have a live hitbox at your disposal covering your back. I found it most useful mixing it up with QFR's/ being chased. For example, say they try to dash atk you. You can create space by floating away, z drop, force them into their shield (or clash) then commence exposing them. Its also a reliable way to stay mobile and making grab available again. Also you can edge guards characters (although a bit more situational) with your back turned to the ledge, float, zdrop, and the turnip falls really close to the ledge offstage. Imo not as useful as the first, but it does look pretty cool in game. And u get your turnip to cover a low recovery option without having to even go off the stage and challenge (I'm looking at ness/Luigi foolery). I call it.....the jiggy drop!