Flavorless Mafia III: Game Over. Who Won?

[UtopianPoyzin]

Alright. I don't think I've ever made a Kary iso because I was always too terrified to do so; however, I'm finally going to be performing this feat.

lol

Vote: UtopianPoyzin

Pokechu

Votes me because of a contradiction that I made that hopefully I cleared up in an earlier post.

I don't know why Raxx was killed.

I don't recall anything from the Raxxel - Poyzin interactions that suggested a motive for Poyzin to kill Raxxel.

"I don't know"

If you click through to the rest of the post I quoted, you will see that Poyzin said 'filler is usually scummy' and then proceeded to post a freaking pyramid of theorynomics and fluff that gets us no closer to solving this game. By his own argument he is scummy.

It also seems reasonable to assume that at most one of poyzin / GLG is mafia given their near-constant opposition of one another. If I am to believe GLG is town from his reaction yesterday, that would make poyzin more likely to be scum.



I don't have any theories that hold water. I don't think it's worth sharing a half-baked idea at this point.

1 scum between me and GLG makes sense. Nothing gamebreaking. Also an "I don't know" moment.

What has Poyzin done this game except repeat ad nauseum that he finds GLG scummy?

We put GLG in the firing line yesterday and I think he reacted well. I don't think he's cleared but I'm not interested in pushing him right now.

Defense of GLG

@giraffelasergun who would you look at if Poyzin flips town?

Question to GLG

@giraffelasergun why is Poyzin scum, in your own words?

Question to GLG

If I had to make a guess I would put the Raxxel kill in the camp of trying to dodge a protective role.
I can't point to any specific examples but I wouldn't put it past someone like Nabe to kill someone for the memes, more likely in a large game I would expect.

If I were to analyze what Z actually said:


I think it's more likely that Z is trying to understand my motive for voting Poyzin, rather than he is accusing Poyzin of being behind the Raxxel kill.
I can't say whether Poyzin would be inclined to kill Raxxel as a joke but I don't think it's scummy to just mention that possibility.

Discussion of gamestate? I'm not really sure how to interpret this post, but there's an "I don't know" moment at the end.

To answer the question, I don't make joke kills. I've never made a joke kill, and I don't intend on making any joke kills in the future. This shouldn't be a point of discussion in my opinion, but to each their own.

anyone feel like letting Poyzin slide today so that he can at least live past D2 as scum?

Useless

Pokechu gimme 2 scum reads babe

Question to Pokechu.

To me this feels like a very weak point. Do you have any results where this approach actually helped you?

This might be something worth focusing on in RVS but if you're trying to tell me this helps to justify your scumread that just seems real bad...

I feel like you can be and have been obvious town in past games and you're really slacking in this one. You're only alive at this point because Maven was more of a dead weight. I really don't want to waste two lynches on lazy townies so if you could show me some of that good stuff I would appreciate it.

Talking with GLG on how they kind of look scummy but that's OK so please give me some good stuff in the future keep it up.

bessie

Spoiler

in particular how it changed from Day 1 to now.

Question to Bessie.

Not in my town pile. I will say more as Day goes on.

States that Pokechu isn't in their town pile. Will have to follow up on this point after more is brought to light on this read.





So all in all, we have another slot that hasn't done much today. There are tons of posts, but a lot of them are directed at GLG and seems to be non-chalantly trying to boost the town's perspective of GLG. Like "they look pretty scummy, it's usually obvious when their town and this game is not one of those obv!town games... but I can't support a lynch in that direction so I'll lynch Poyzin and give GLG many opportunities to make themselves look better by asking them easy questions. I'll develop a Pokechu scumread too so we have a route to take toMorrow."

That's the short version of where I'm at. Hopefully my position is very clear.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Alright. I don't think I've ever made a Kary iso because I was always too terrified to do so; however, I'm finally going to be performing this feat.





Votes me because of a contradiction that I made that hopefully I cleared up in an earlier post.



"I don't know"



1 scum between me and GLG makes sense. Nothing gamebreaking. Also an "I don't know" moment.



Defense of GLG



Question to GLG



Question to GLG



Discussion of gamestate? I'm not really sure how to interpret this post, but there's an "I don't know" moment at the end.

To answer the question, I don't make joke kills. I've never made a joke kill, and I don't intend on making any joke kills in the future. This shouldn't be a point of discussion in my opinion, but to each their own.



Useless



Question to Pokechu.



Talking with GLG on how they kind of look scummy but that's OK so please give me some good stuff in the future keep it up.



Question to Bessie.



States that Pokechu isn't in their town pile. Will have to follow up on this point after more is brought to light on this read.





So all in all, we have another slot that hasn't done much today. There are tons of posts, but a lot of them are directed at GLG and seems to be non-chalantly trying to boost the town's perspective of GLG. Like "they look pretty scummy, it's usually obvious when their town and this game is not one of those obv!town games... but I can't support a lynch in that direction so I'll lynch Poyzin and give GLG many opportunities to make themselves look better by asking them easy questions. I'll develop a Pokechu scumread too so we have a route to take toMorrow."

That's the short version of where I'm at. Hopefully my position is very clear.

This is a D2 iso. I'm not diving into D1, as I find today to be more interesting from them.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

It's also worth mentioning that they are voting for me on the premise that it's either me or GLG. They voted GLG last night and were "convinced" they were going out. However, when Maven flips town, I'm the culprit on a simple contradiction of "filler is scummy" due to my selfishness of not putting names into the pyramid. However again, they admit to not knowing why I am more scummy than GLG, the person who they were voting just before the deadline. In general, their reasoning thus far is that I said that "filler is usually scummy" and post a pyramid of filler, and that I have repeated ad nauseum that GLG is scum. Regarding the first point, even though I was demonstrating why GLG was scummy based on their use of unhelpful posts D1, it should really be based on one's own interpretation on whether filler is scummy. That is why I perfectly understand why I am being scumread, which is due to my use of a giant "filler" pyramid. However, if somebody DOESN'T think filler is scummy, why is my pyramid a reason to assume that I am? And then there is my push on GLG. I didn't have any evidence at first. My read was based on gut, bad vibes, and a little bit of luck. However, from then on, there wasn't any reason for me to change my vote, as my initial suspicions maintained themselves into a fullblown scumread. bessie , I hope you understand that I didn't scumread anybody off the bat. I just voted for the person who I thought was the most suspicious, and the most likely to have an ulterior motive beyond their posts. Yet, it seems like, in my mind, that I have struck gold, because I truly believe that GLG is scum. I was wavering in my initial reread of D2, as they had good answers to questions. Yet, I found that a lot of this content was prompted by Kary asking toss up questions, and potentially helping GLG with the responses in the scumchat. Now, I'm pretty sold that they are a duo, and my scumread of GLG returns.

If you're town, I'm really sorry, because I didn't give you much of a chance to make amends. However, it was through Kary's D2 that cemented the thought in my mind, which is why I need you to be lynched here to see whether my suspicions were fruitful. If you flip scum, then Kary is the most likely mate.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

There's also the possibility of Pokechu coming to my rescue as an out for when I flip town

By this I meant that if Pokechu were scum for some reason, and I flipped town at the end of the Day, then #364 would have been a great post for Pokechu because they knew my alignment and could get out of being suspected. I didn't think I looked town at all so I was really confused why they defended me much harder than whatever I did on D1.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Lol

Give me a quick min

Hm, that was a quick 2 hours.

Vote: Giraffelasergun

 

[Z25]

Hm, that was a quick 2 hours.

Vote: Giraffelasergun

About time we got some big content.
Honestly some of your points are interesting but it’s a lot to take in.

Honestly though seeing GLG’s flip first may be the better way to analyze you. If GLG is town then you are a slot I’ll definitely be looking at.

I’m curious though what do you think will happen to you if he’s town? How do you expect people to view all you just posted?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

So all in all, we have another slot that hasn't done much today. There are tons of posts, but a lot of them are directed at GLG and seems to be non-chalantly trying to boost the town's perspective of GLG. Like "they look pretty scummy, it's usually obvious when their town and this game is not one of those obv!town games... but I can't support a lynch in that direction so I'll lynch Poyzin and give GLG many opportunities to make themselves look better by asking them easy questions. I'll develop a Pokechu scumread too so we have a route to take toMorrow."

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth here.

Frankly, you wasted your 2 hours. You're obviously getting ahead of yourself because
a) your case against me is going to evaporate if GLG flips town and
b) I'm not seeing anything in terms of reasons why I am scummy, other than I interacted with GLG

I will give you this much: it's possible that GLG is mafia and I let him live yesterday.
But if GLG is mafia, what makes you so certain I am his partner in this situation? As opposed to, say Pokechu or Bessie, who both seemed reluctant to vote GLG. Or someone like Pythag who has consistently voiced dislike of GLG but without giving a very good argument.

If you think you've solved the game already, I've got bad news for you. This is your wake up call. I'm town. Try again.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I'm still waiting to hear from Pokechu (#387), then I will give my thoughts and opinions on the right direction for this Day.

 

[Pokechu]

I'm still waiting to hear from Pokechu (#387), then I will give my thoughts and opinions on the right direction for this Day.

My apologies! I was out for most of toDay. Working on my response now!

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth here.

Am I though?

but I can't support a lynch in that direction so I'll lynch Poyzin and give GLG many opportunities to make themselves look better by asking them easy questions. I'll develop a Pokechu scumread too so we have a route to take toMorrow

I'm not interested in pushing him right now.

lol Vote: UtopianPoyzin

@giraffelasergun who would you look at if Poyzin flips town?

@giraffelasergun why is Poyzin scum, in your own words?

(Pokechu is) not in my town pile. I will say more as Day goes on.

If you're aligned with GLG then his interest in Pokechu also makes sense.

Frankly, you wasted your 2 hours. You're obviously getting ahead of yourself because
a) your case against me is going to evaporate if GLG flips town and
b) I'm not seeing anything in terms of reasons why I am scummy, other than I interacted with GLG

a) I don't disagree. A lot of the case against you is from mere conjecture; however, the image in my head of you talking with GLG as you formulate your questions and answers make all too much sense.
b) You're undercutting my argument in the aspect that it's not JUST because you interacted with GLG. You have been setting up GLG with letting him sit in the hotseat on D1 before calling it a wrap near the end of the day to swing the vote onto Maven, and use GLG's position as a lynch candidate to label him as town due to his limited, prompted interaction with you near the end of the day. I wish I had more of a reason to say why you yourself were scummy, but the fact of the matter is that you're a good player and the odds that I'm able to find evidence suggesting that you are scum by yourself are slim to none. Heck, I even had you as a town lean for a while. With that being said, your performance today from my iso shows that your initiative towards solving the game has been relatively lackluster toDay, given that you've spent a majority of your time asking questions, making surface level comments, and that you've tried to redeem the one person that you suspected to be surely scum the day before. (If he would've flipped scum, then that's a terrific out for you as you nearly bussed your mate on the first Day!) It was only just now that you attempted to follow up on your initial Pokechu read. Meta also plays into it as well, as you haven't been making as bold of reads as you had in previous games, which furthers my suspicion of you. In the end, the circumstantial evidence points to you as GLG's scummate more than it does to anybody else that you attempted to defer the blame toward. Still, I am not interested in lynching you today. I am looking forward to reading the dirt that you have on Pokechu.

But if GLG is mafia, what makes you so certain I am his partner in this situation?

I think I have answered this pretty clearly in my previous posts so I'm not inclined to answer this broad of a question. Maybe I'll find some quotes of mine that will help.

 

[Pokechu]

Pokechu gimme 2 scum reads babe

My top scumread is Z for all the reasons I listed above. I just really feel like for what the slot has done, he really hasn't garnered attention. Which is strange! LMAO Like I double your vote for kicks and giggles and multiple people called that out. But Z has misrepresented me, deflects what I'm saying, backtracks, throws potshots, and no one really cares. I'm a bit jealous actually!! Most people have the mindset that everything I say is bull**** so I think part of me is envious that he hasn't gotten much heat for things I definitely would have

My second would have to be Pythag. I've only played with him once in Fire and Lightning (?) Mafia which I absolutely remember nothing of but I feel like this game he's really just been floating around. Like searching the thread for their posts, I'd estimate like half are just asking questions. Which, it can help to clarify people's stances! But he really needs to step it up. At this point it feels like he almost doesn't want to be remembered !!! I like his observation in #351 but his repeated worry over joke votes turning real is just kind of weird to me #288 #259. I get the vibe that Pythag wants to post enough, whether it be reactions, questions, or his own unique perspectives (e.g. the joke votes) to have a presence, but not enough to attract attention, and I think this kind of play is always anti-town. He started the Day sussing Z but he (Pythag) didn't seem to have anything to say about my Z teardown. What a shame :[ Pythag do you have anything to say? or is it not the masterpiece I think it is LOL

but back to my read on Pythag, I can't find the post though but you said yesterDay that people usually scumread Pythag when he's town and townread me when I'm scum, so I'm putting my Pythag read on pause. Going to see what I can gleam from rereading his posts ! With what Poyzin has put out I think? some of it caught my eye with regards to GLG, but I haven't read it all, so I mighttt look into that for now.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

I’m curious though what do you think will happen to you if he’s town? How do you expect people to view all you just posted?

If GLG is town and Kary and GLG were just looking naturally suspicious then it sucks to suck for me I guess. I'd probably have to completely reconsider my life choices at that point. Pokechu may be the next best alternative for a D3 lynch, and I'd definitely need to reconsider my position on Bessie. I'm fine with the latter sticking as town though. As a quick PoE:

Can't be Poyzin (duh)
Can't be Bessie, as they've been extremely rationale and have been both helpful and productive in the game. #380 and #388 are recent examples of solid inferences made from the game, and seem to have that townie mindset.
Can't be Pythag because I'm reading this as a typical town!Pythag game.
Can't be Z25 because:

Honestly there is way to much here for me to deal with on mobile but 3 things:

1) I actually would say I have a decent reason to feel how I do on that slot. I already said this multiple times but his last game shows a play style akin to this.

Also if he flipped scum what would you say then?

2) You clearly haven’t paid enough attention in these games if you don’t think people kill night one as a joke every so often. It’s night one scums odds of hitting anyone important would be low( admittedly they got lucky here though). So it’s not out there. Especially when Maven has literally killed people like Nabe as a joke night one( or it was the other way around. To many HBC members in our past game).

So yes people with heavy past experience with someone can absolutely pick a joke target night one for a kill. So bringing that up wasn’t crazy.

And if your gonna to preach to me about staying on a target, your in the same damn boat considering you followed Kary around like a lost puppy yesterday and just automatically went for their vote at request.

3) Please explain to me how I can be proactive if there’s barely substantial evidence and content for me to analyze. I can’t do my job of analyzing if no one else is heavily posting. Most people( and very likely scum) are trying to cost by no doubt.

I could see here and talk to my self all day long and flood the page with text, but what the **** would that accomplish if only Kary is actively participating?

The answer nothing. So yes your logic here makes no sense and now your the one seemingly to throw dirt, despite the fact you’ve been just as uncommitted.

This is town!Z25. Complete with swearing and everything.

I can't imagine either of you aligned with Pokechu. So right now the two of you are my best bet for now. It sucks that it came down to Process of Elimination but that's my logic and I really do think that the lynch has to be GLG.

 

[Pokechu]

This is town!Z25. Complete with swearing and everything.

honestly I thought that post confirmed my whole wall + then some . it's another reason why I'm reading Z as scum. I don't like that post. I would've gotten to it already but I started quoting GLG and talking with Z through there and I didn't want to bombard him LMAO

 

[Pokechu]

My top scumread is Z for all the reasons I listed above. I just really feel like for what the slot has done, he really hasn't garnered attention. Which is strange! LMAO Like I double your vote for kicks and giggles and multiple people called that out. But Z has misrepresented me, deflects what I'm saying, backtracks, throws potshots, and no one really cares. I'm a bit jealous actually!! Most people have the mindset that everything I say is bull**** so I think part of me is envious that he hasn't gotten much heat for things I definitely would have

My second would have to be Pythag. I've only played with him once in Fire and Lightning (?) Mafia which I absolutely remember nothing of but I feel like this game he's really just been floating around. Like searching the thread for their posts, I'd estimate like half are just asking questions. Which, it can help to clarify people's stances! But he really needs to step it up. At this point it feels like he almost doesn't want to be remembered !!! I like his observation in #351 but his repeated worry over joke votes turning real is just kind of weird to me #288 #259. I get the vibe that Pythag wants to post enough, whether it be reactions, questions, or his own unique perspectives (e.g. the joke votes) to have a presence, but not enough to attract attention, and I think this kind of play is always anti-town. He started the Day sussing Z but he (Pythag) didn't seem to have anything to say about my Z teardown. What a shame :[ Pythag do you have anything to say? or is it not the masterpiece I think it is LOL

but back to my read on Pythag, I can't find the post though but you said yesterDay that people usually scumread Pythag when he's town and townread me when I'm scum, so I'm putting my Pythag read on pause. Going to see what I can gleam from rereading his posts ! With what Poyzin has put out I think? some of it caught my eye with regards to GLG, but I haven't read it all, so I mighttt look into that for now.

wait I forgot about my Poyzin read! my top 2 is definitely Z and Pythag but I'm looking into GLG and Poyzin as well because their posts might have some clues !!!!!

 

[Z25]

My top scumread is Z for all the reasons I listed above. I just really feel like for what the slot has done, he really hasn't garnered attention. Which is strange! LMAO Like I double your vote for kicks and giggles and multiple people called that out. But Z has misrepresented me, deflects what I'm saying, backtracks, throws potshots, and no one really cares. I'm a bit jealous actually!! Most people have the mindset that everything I say is bull**** so I think part of me is envious that he hasn't gotten much heat for things I definitely would have

My second would have to be Pythag. I've only played with him once in Fire and Lightning (?) Mafia which I absolutely remember nothing of but I feel like this game he's really just been floating around. Like searching the thread for their posts, I'd estimate like half are just asking questions. Which, it can help to clarify people's stances! But he really needs to step it up. At this point it feels like he almost doesn't want to be remembered !!! I like his observation in #351 but his repeated worry over joke votes turning real is just kind of weird to me #288 #259. I get the vibe that Pythag wants to post enough, whether it be reactions, questions, or his own unique perspectives (e.g. the joke votes) to have a presence, but not enough to attract attention, and I think this kind of play is always anti-town. He started the Day sussing Z but he (Pythag) didn't seem to have anything to say about my Z teardown. What a shame :[ Pythag do you have anything to say? or is it not the masterpiece I think it is LOL

but back to my read on Pythag, I can't find the post though but you said yesterDay that people usually scumread Pythag when he's town and townread me when I'm scum, so I'm putting my Pythag read on pause. Going to see what I can gleam from rereading his posts ! With what Poyzin has put out I think? some of it caught my eye with regards to GLG, but I haven't read it all, so I mighttt look into that for now.

Your forgetting a crucial thing however.

My behavior is always seen as scummy in these games regardless of what I do. And I’m almost always town. Which is the same here. Something I’m sure people are conflicted on again but there are still better targets today imo.

 

[Z25]

If GLG is town and Kary and GLG were just looking naturally suspicious then it sucks to suck for me I guess. I'd probably have to completely reconsider my life choices at that point. Pokechu may be the next best alternative for a D3 lynch, and I'd definitely need to reconsider my position on Bessie. I'm fine with the latter sticking as town though. As a quick PoE:

Can't be Poyzin (duh)
Can't be Bessie, as they've been extremely rationale and have been both helpful and productive in the game. #380 and #388 are recent examples of solid inferences made from the game, and seem to have that townie mindset.
Can't be Pythag because I'm reading this as a typical town!Pythag game.
Can't be Z25 because:

This is town!Z25. Complete with swearing and everything.

I can't imagine either of you aligned with Pokechu. So right now the two of you are my best bet for now. It sucks that it came down to Process of Elimination but that's my logic and I really do think that the lynch has to be GLG.

“This is town Z25 complete with swearing and everything”

Might be one of the greatest posts I’ve read on this site lmao

 

[#HBC | Kary]

But if GLG is mafia, what makes you so certain I am his partner in this situation? As opposed to, say Pokechu or Bessie, who both seemed reluctant to vote GLG. Or someone like Pythag who has consistently voiced dislike of GLG but without giving a very good argument.

I think I have answered this pretty clearly in my previous posts so I'm not inclined to answer this broad of a question. Maybe I'll find some quotes of mine that will help.

I really don't think you have answered the question.

Maybe I didn't phrase my question the right way.
Let me present you a situation. We lynch GLG and he flips scum. Then I die Night 2 and flip town.
Who are you going to look at on Day 3? Who is GLG's partner if not me?

 

[Z25]

If GLG is town and Kary and GLG were just looking naturally suspicious then it sucks to suck for me I guess. I'd probably have to completely reconsider my life choices at that point. Pokechu may be the next best alternative for a D3 lynch, and I'd definitely need to reconsider my position on Bessie. I'm fine with the latter sticking as town though. As a quick PoE:

Can't be Poyzin (duh)
Can't be Bessie, as they've been extremely rationale and have been both helpful and productive in the game. #380 and #388 are recent examples of solid inferences made from the game, and seem to have that townie mindset.
Can't be Pythag because I'm reading this as a typical town!Pythag game.
Can't be Z25 because:

This is town!Z25. Complete with swearing and everything.

I can't imagine either of you aligned with Pokechu. So right now the two of you are my best bet for now. It sucks that it came down to Process of Elimination but that's my logic and I really do think that the lynch has to be GLG.

Also everything on GLG you said has me thinking.

Rax said before the phase was over this;

Dammit. The thing is, this "last reads" post thing is the exact thing I did to save my ass in VGM when I was about to be lynched. And yet it makes me reluctant to lynch GLG. The claim helps a lot.

To be safe, in case Kary doesn't respond in time...
Vote: Maven

However, Kary, we have 10 minutes to turn this around. If you agree to it, I want to lynch Pokechu.

Makes me wonder if there’s any weight to that hypothesis

 

[#HBC | Kary]

wait I forgot about my Poyzin read! my top 2 is definitely Z and Pythag but I'm looking into GLG and Poyzin as well because their posts might have some clues !!!!!

I'm keen to hear what you think of them (glg/poyzin)

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Let me present you a situation. We lynch GLG and he flips scum. Then I die Night 2 and flip town.
Who are you going to look at on Day 3? Who is GLG's partner if not me?

To start, I doubt that you'll be killed N2. With that being said, after I punch myself a couple times, I'd probably look into Pokechu the most because we have polar opposite reads of Z25.

honestly I thought that post confirmed my whole wall + then some . it's another reason why I'm reading Z as scum. I don't like that post. I would've gotten to it already but I started quoting GLG and talking with Z through there and I didn't want to bombard him LMAO

There isn't anything bad about not being able to truly connect during a game. Like sometimes, people are on the same page and can put their heads together to come to a solution. Other times, ideas just clash, and that's alright. With that being said, I don't think that Pokechu has made a solid read on GLG, so if they're trying to avoid creating an association between the two I wouldn't be shocked. However, Pokechu is my backup after you.

Pokechu could you elaborate your position on both me and GLG, or can you link to somewhere that you have?

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

I think that's everything I wanted to cover here. Is it a good idea to try to peg a definitive scumteam D2? No. Can I be wrong? Hell yeah. Does a lot of my theory rely on conjecture? Of course it does. However, it's the best idea I've got, and it looks PRETTY solid at the moment. There's also the possibility of Pokechu coming to my rescue as an out for when I flip town, but I got myself really convinced while writing this that it's Kary and GLG, and hopefully you all take the due time to check this post out IN ITS ENTIRETY because I'm pretty sure I'm onto something.

By this I meant that if Pokechu were scum for some reason, and I flipped town at the end of the Day, then #364 would have been a great post for Pokechu because they knew my alignment and could get out of being suspected. I didn't think I looked town at all so I was really confused why they defended me much harder than whatever I did on D1.

These were the posts #HBC | Kary

 

[bessie]

If I had to make a guess I would put the Raxxel kill in the camp of trying to dodge a protective role.
I can't point to any specific examples but I wouldn't put it past someone like Nabe to kill someone for the memes, more likely in a large game I would expect.

Not exactly what I was looking for, but thanks for the answer. I was interested to know if you agreed with Z25, that it is not uncommon on this forum for scum to select their N1 target for a joke, not necessarily as a serious target (going back to Z25 speculating that UtopianPoysin would kill Raxxel for a joke). I find this entire argument very bizarre, especially in a small game, so I wanted an opinion more relating to forum meta.

bessie in particular how it changed from Day 1 to now.

Pokechu was not on my radar on Day 1. Kary had the mistaken belief that I had a town read of Pokechu on Day 1, which seems to originate with my town-scum list. As stated before, there was no neutral line on that list. I don’t clear anyone Day 1 (without mod confirmation), and I rarely completely clear anyone ever without mod confirmation that they are town. I read every post and note things that I find interesting as I read. Because I don’t have 12 hours a day to play, I don’t have time to repeatedly overanalyze everyone’s content, so I concentrate on my scum reads, or things that ping me. Nothing Pokechu posted had pinged me, so they weren’t on my radar Day 1, and I wasn’t going to dig into their content. I had an actual scum read on Maven, so I was more interested in Maven’s vote on Pythag.

Kary also speculates that my read changed from Day 1 to Day 2. I guess it has, in that I am always reevaluating everyone as new information becomes available. GLG asked what I found scummy with Pokechu. I read their Day 1 posts during the night cycle, and I don’t like that Pokechu doesn’t seem to be following the game closely, refer to what I said in Post #380; along similar lines refer to Post #388, again Pokechu agreed with something Z25 said (which was suspicious in itself) without looking it up.

In regards to Post #206, why did Pokechu not vote, they were not voting at the time of this post. They gave reasons for not voting for meta reasons in #211, 213, 215, but was convinced to vote anyway in Post #216, then I’m not entirely sure what Post #217 means, are they going to look for supporting evidence for the vote they already made?

Some other pings with the remainder of Pokechu’s content:
No ordered town-scum list (which most players haven’t provided).
Not unvoting and staying on Maven when GLG was the likely lynch.

Something else I noted from my reread:

I don't understand your logic. You harp on inactives (me) but then when a player provides a game for the inactive (anyone could've provided the game for Raxxel's question), you try to tie them to the inactive and say something could be going on. If Poy had the time, I don't see the issue with him providing the game for me. It had been a while since T-Rax posed the question. I do agree Poy was eager to defend me, but I quite admire that! Since I'm on the receiving end I'm obviously biased LMAO but I make plays like that too, defending someone D1. Now that I think about it, maybe I admire it specifically BECAUSE I do it too, that would make sense..... LOL

My feeling is that this would be a rather bold statement for scum to make.

I can't say that I had full confidence in GLG being scum in three posts, that much is true. I was just getting an artificial vibe from it. It wasn't exactly speaking to me, you know? Not the strongest case for the first three posts, but it was enough for me to cast a vote their due to general suspicions. They look a lot better today, and it appears that they took what I said to heart (?) because they appear to have meaningful contributions. And hey, they even got a pretty good case on me! I can't say that I fault it, because I kind of forgot about the game for a bit. However, I'm willing to move them off the hotseat in my book for now. Afaict though, they seem to still be a scumlean because they had the GALL to scumread me

Thank you for your reply to one of my questions from Post #253, but I have been prodding you to answer the question at the bottom post #253.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Same question to UtopianPoyzin, why did you not ask ZestOfLife directly about his mafia experience? Do you use meta to develop your reads, and do you consider a player’s experience in your reads?

That? Bruh sorry it took so long for me to get back to you. For one, ZestOfLife never got back to me, and I just assumed they had prior experience. I think I did actually mention that I do research on people who enter the game with 0-1 previous posts here to get a sense of where they come from and kind of how they play.

With that being said I find vets much harder to read, unless they have or lack town tendencies or scum tendencies. Newer players are much more honest and seem less likely to try to intentionally deceive.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

UtopianPoyzin have you ever played with Bessie before?

 

[ranmaru]

Votecount 2.2

2. UtopianPoyzin: Kary
4. Z25
5. Giraffelasergun: UtopianPoyzin
6. Pythag
7. Pokechu
8. Kary
9. Bessie

Not Voting
Z25, Giraffelasergun, Pythag, Pokechu, Bessie;

Important Game Links
Game Links and Vote Counts

Notes:
N/A

*= Currently being replaced
^= V/LA

With 7 players, it takes 4 votes to lynch
The deadline for Day 2 is March 22nd, at 11:59 PM EST.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

UtopianPoyzin have you ever played with Bessie before?

To the best of my knowledge, no.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Vote: Pokechu

Pokechu if you're not going to work with me then I have no reason to keep you alive.

Your reads haven't developed between Day 1 (206) and Day 2 (411), and you have not done anything to try and develop them. You are not being pro-active this game, either questioning or pressuring the players you find suspicious. Instead you are being very passive.

It's true that you made a case against z25 toDay, but I think that this is a reaction to several players putting you in their scumpool (myself, bessie, z25).
Again, in your case you do not have any questions for z25, you are already at the stage of drawing conclusions:

His arguments are shallow and he's been very opportunistic. Unless an epiphany hits me, I think Z will be my vote for toDay.

The other problem with your case against z25 is that you are being very selective in what counts towards your scumread, and seem to ignore other parts of his content. You do not offer any opinion on his reads list (289), nor do you talk about how he used his vote (for example he never voted for town Maven).
I get the feeling that you are only trying to justify your scumread, and are not trying to evaluate z25's slot overall and get a good read on him.

Being passive does not automatically make a player scummy. But when you criticize z25 for not being proactive:

He hasn't made an ISO for either of us, he hasn't really interacted with us to get a better read of where we're at; he hasn't advanced his read. But as town, shouldn't you always look to advance your read? You should be motivated to put content out there if there isn't any, in order to advance your read.

This shows that you realize you should do more, but you're not doing it. You're scummy by your own standards.
Again, you could say "I made a case against z25", but I would counter: you didn't even vote for him. I don't get the feeling that you really believe what you're posting when you don't back it up with a vote.

My other problem with your play this game is I dislike your direction and how you are focusing your attention. You seem to be giving GLG a pass on his behaviour while accusing other players of things like 'being quiet'. Maybe if you had given a full reads list I could understand your perspective a bit better, but when there are arguments like Poyzin vs GLG going on and you seem to not care about them at all, it feels like we are not even playing the same game. You don't want to be my doublevoter but you aren't doing enough to make your own stances clear. The end result is I have a hard time believing the part of the picture you do share with the rest of us.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Poyzin
Bessie
Pythag
Z25
Pokechu
Kary
Giraffelasergun

Poyzin
Bessie
Pythag
Z25
Pokechu
Kary
Giraffelasergun

Felt inclined to make this slight tweak. I feel good about my town reads now. Inb4 Bessie is scum.

 

[Pokechu]

Vote: Pokechu

Pokechu if you're not going to work with me then I have no reason to keep you alive.

Your reads haven't developed between Day 1 (206) and Day 2 (411), and you have not done anything to try and develop them. You are not being pro-active this game, either questioning or pressuring the players you find suspicious. Instead you are being very passive.

It's true that you made a case against z25 toDay, but I think that this is a reaction to several players putting you in their scumpool (myself, bessie, z25).
Again, in your case you do not have any questions for z25, you are already at the stage of drawing conclusions:


The other problem with your case against z25 is that you are being very selective in what counts towards your scumread, and seem to ignore other parts of his content. You do not offer any opinion on his reads list (289), nor do you talk about how he used his vote (for example he never voted for town Maven).
I get the feeling that you are only trying to justify your scumread, and are not trying to evaluate z25's slot overall and get a good read on him.

Being passive does not automatically make a player scummy. But when you criticize z25 for not being proactive:

This shows that you realize you should do more, but you're not doing it. You're scummy by your own standards.
Again, you could say "I made a case against z25", but I would counter: you didn't even vote for him. I don't get the feeling that you really believe what you're posting when you don't back it up with a vote.

My other problem with your play this game is I dislike your direction and how you are focusing your attention. You seem to be giving GLG a pass on his behaviour while accusing other players of things like 'being quiet'. Maybe if you had given a full reads list I could understand your perspective a bit better, but when there are arguments like Poyzin vs GLG going on and you seem to not care about them at all, it feels like we are not even playing the same game. You don't want to be my doublevoter but you aren't doing enough to make your own stances clear. The end result is I have a hard time believing the part of the picture you do share with the rest of us.

Honestly a lot of this I explained . And chunks of it I can’t dispute (me not using my vote.... OK?? LOL that’s not changing any time soon, town or scum...)

Like I never said I didn’t care about Poy vs GLG. I’ve been swamped and haven’t been able to keep up with the new posts as much as I would’ve liked (and when I was going hard in on Z, no one was posting then). I even said in my response to you before that I hadn’t read most of Poy’s argument against GLG but that one or two things did catch my eye.

I’ll give a response to this! But really not sure how you’re pushing against me. I’m satisfied with my content! Part of the reason I posted my wall was to see how Z would react, and it’s his reaction that furthered my read. So in that sense it’s false to say I haven’t been proactive or developed my reads because I’m letting them stir and I’m having it for dinner LMAO

 

[Z25]

Poyzin
Bessie
Pythag
Z25
Pokechu
Kary
Giraffelasergun

Felt inclined to make this slight tweak. I feel good about my town reads now. Inb4 Bessie is scum.

Going to post my own update list after this phase as I think the flip today could help really hone in on who’s town and not town

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

I’ll give a response to this! But really not sure how you’re pushing against me. I’m satisfied with my content! Part of the reason I posted my wall was to see how Z would react, and it’s his reaction that furthered my read. So in that sense it’s false to say I haven’t been proactive or developed my reads because I’m letting them stir and I’m having it for dinner LMAO

To be fair, I find Kary’s case against you to be perfectly valid, so I’m not sure what your goal is in this quote besides devaluing a perfectly acceptable argument.

Letting things stir before commenting is, by definition, reactive.

Kary’s argument is that you’re playing your own game and don’t seem to be addressing the current happenings of the thread, such as me v GLG. Maybe it’s because you don’t want to be associated with GLG, and I get that if you’re scum. However, you’re playing a really quiet game in the sense that you are trying to remain low on everybody’s radar, but still trying to appear like you’re contributing through your Z25 hunt.

We’re opening up the floor to you for your opinion on who the scum is between GLG and I, if at all. Please comment on this.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

I even said in my response to you before that I hadn’t read most of Poy’s argument against GLG but that one or two things did catch my eye.

If you’re going to say this please elaborate

 

[#HBC | Kary]

UtopianPoyzin have you read Whose Line Mafia?

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

UtopianPoyzin have you read Whose Line Mafia?

I have not but I have plenty of time to do so. If you can link it that would be grand

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I have not but I have plenty of time to do so. If you can link it that would be grand

I'm not suggesting that you read it. It's about a million pages long if I recall.

I do want to know why you are so confident in your Bessie read. They mostly seem to ask about trivial things or pick up on small details without giving many comments on the big picture. For someone you've never played with before, and someone who could well be a 'vet' as you call them, you seem pretty happy to slap them with a town read.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

I do want to know why you are so confident in your Bessie read. They mostly seem to ask about trivial things or pick up on small details without giving many comments on the big picture. For someone you've never played with before, and someone who could well be a 'vet' as you call them, you seem pretty happy to slap them with a town read.

If I wasn't able to form opinions on people I've never played with, then playing games with a brand new group of people would be near impossible if I had no prior knowledge. I've been relying on more vibes than I usually do in mafia, but from my perspective, Bessie has a clear townie mindset and a productive modus operandi. Each question they ask has an understandable and recognizable purpose, they are in tune with the game and make sure to voice their opinions over hot topics, are generally consistent with their reads and make sure to let people know when they change, and haven't done anything that looks particularly scummy. With that being said, they are not on my radar as of now, as if I consider them to be scum my brain would probably implode. If we mislynch today though, Bessie would definitely be the first person I would reread, as I have stated somewhere, due to the fact that I haven't ever played with them and maybe their scum play is just extremely townie. I grabbed some posts of theirs that I liked.

At the time I posted, not yet posting on D2 was one of the reasons.

From rereading during the night cycle, I do not like Post #291. There was no indication that GLG might replace out. Pokechu made this post without even reviewing the content to see when GLG last posted, also an indicator that they were not really following the game. And this post made it clear that Pokechu didn’t scum read either Maven or GLG. Later, it is open for Pokechu to point to this and say “I didn’t really want to lynch them.” See also #295, why didn’t Pokechu check instead of asking the thread if they missed anything?



This was in Post #192. Why did you wait until now to point this out? Agree strongly with the statistics thing btw, but since I don’t know Z25 at all, I don’t feel justified in scum reading him for an error that happens to a lot of people (see my earlier reference to Gambler’s Fallacy). In one game I played we had a math teacher make a similar observation and we all piled on him.



#HBC | Kary your opinion on this please?

Yes. I had a scum read of Maven, see Post #222 (for reasons) and #311.


Sorry I read through your posts and somehow missed that.



This is an odd speculation. Why would you even think this? Per Activity Rule #1, you are required to post once every 48 hours. If there is some allowance for the weekend, GLG was within the requirements.

Spoiler

#21 3/4/2020
#31 3/4/2020
#47 3/4/2020
#80 3/5/2020
#91 3/5/2020
#99 3/5/2020
#121 3/6/2020
#123 3/6/2020
#224 3/9/2020
#227 3/9/2020
#260 3/10/2020
#318 3/11/2020
#320 3/11/2020
#322 3/11/2020

Hmmmmm.

Not exactly what I was looking for, but thanks for the answer. I was interested to know if you agreed with Z25, that it is not uncommon on this forum for scum to select their N1 target for a joke, not necessarily as a serious target (going back to Z25 speculating that UtopianPoysin would kill Raxxel for a joke). I find this entire argument very bizarre, especially in a small game, so I wanted an opinion more relating to forum meta.



Pokechu was not on my radar on Day 1. Kary had the mistaken belief that I had a town read of Pokechu on Day 1, which seems to originate with my town-scum list. As stated before, there was no neutral line on that list. I don’t clear anyone Day 1 (without mod confirmation), and I rarely completely clear anyone ever without mod confirmation that they are town. I read every post and note things that I find interesting as I read. Because I don’t have 12 hours a day to play, I don’t have time to repeatedly overanalyze everyone’s content, so I concentrate on my scum reads, or things that ping me. Nothing Pokechu posted had pinged me, so they weren’t on my radar Day 1, and I wasn’t going to dig into their content. I had an actual scum read on Maven, so I was more interested in Maven’s vote on Pythag.

Kary also speculates that my read changed from Day 1 to Day 2. I guess it has, in that I am always reevaluating everyone as new information becomes available. GLG asked what I found scummy with Pokechu. I read their Day 1 posts during the night cycle, and I don’t like that Pokechu doesn’t seem to be following the game closely, refer to what I said in Post #380; along similar lines refer to Post #388, again Pokechu agreed with something Z25 said (which was suspicious in itself) without looking it up.

In regards to Post #206, why did Pokechu not vote, they were not voting at the time of this post. They gave reasons for not voting for meta reasons in #211, 213, 215, but was convinced to vote anyway in Post #216, then I’m not entirely sure what Post #217 means, are they going to look for supporting evidence for the vote they already made?

Some other pings with the remainder of Pokechu’s content:
No ordered town-scum list (which most players haven’t provided).
Not unvoting and staying on Maven when GLG was the likely lynch.

Something else I noted from my reread:

My feeling is that this would be a rather bold statement for scum to make.



Thank you for your reply to one of my questions from Post #253, but I have been prodding you to answer the question at the bottom post #253.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

UtopianPoyzin one more question.

You realize that if we lynch GLG today and he flips town, you're dying on D3? How do you feel about that?

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

UtopianPoyzin one more question.

You realize that if we lynch GLG today and he flips town, you're dying on D3? How do you feel about that?

That's a loaded question, but I feel pretty confident in my read. I can't imagine you and Pokechu being aligned, and if I've been reading Bessie wrong then I'm not in a good spot. I'll answer this question on D3 if GLG flips town.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Kary does it ping you at all that pokechu is sheeping your vote?
That exchange between you two was weird as all get out

Tried to twist Pokechu's arm into being my doublevoter was because I wasn't feeling a lot of town vibes from him.
Sheeping the top town isn't a top tier mafia strategy but its not bad, particularly for example if you are too busy to be completely caught up on things.
However Pokechu doesn't seem keen to blindly follow me. But this works out for me because when I'm telling him to vote for X or Y but he disagrees, that gives me information on his stances that I'm not getting from his pretty sparse posts.
From my point of view the situation also works out if he does decide to sheep me, because if he's scum it limits his options and if he's town it keeps him from being an imbecile and allows me to apply more pressure.
So that's the long and short of why I did it.
I expected him to go along with it in the beginning because he really had no excuse for not voting anyone at that point in time.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

That's a loaded question, but I feel pretty confident in my read. I can't imagine you and Pokechu being aligned, and if I've been reading Bessie wrong then I'm not in a good spot. I'll answer this question on D3 if GLG flips town.

It's the reality that you've signed up for by strapping yourself to the GLG waggon.