Flavorless Mafia III: Game Over. Who Won?

[#HBC | Kary]

Z25 I thought you said you were going to post a reads list today? When's that coming bruh?

 

[Sabrar]

Hello and welcome to dgames, thanks for replacing in.
How many games of mafia have you played before and what's your favorite role?

On my old site I've played for 3 years continuously, averaging about 1 game per 2 months. I've played a few IRL games couple of decades ago. According to Steam I have 259 hours in Throne of Lies (where games last anywhere between 2 and 20 minutes depending on when you get killed).
Don't really have any favorite roles as such, JOAT would be close I guess.

Oh good, another horse and cart.
Who is scum if GLG is scum?

Not sure, we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

I just checked and neither of those are my posts so I'm glad to see someone else without an argument against me

I didn't say it was the whole case, I just said they confirm it.

I didn't give an answer because I was not interested in having an argument based off an off-hand comment that I made. It's not as if Bessie cared enough to chase me up about it so I don't see why you think it's important. Surely it is more a case of our play-styles clashing than anything to do with our alignments.

Regardless of whether or not you're interested in it, you made the comment, you should be able to explain it. How can you be so sure that it is play-style clashing? Why can't it be alignment-indicative and why is it terrible if it's not?

Second, how is being "not willing to read" scummy?

Because scum has pre-set opinions which won't change based on reading, so they have less inclination to do so.

You're bad at being mafia and you don't like being pressured, got it.

Tbh I think both of these points are more or less correct even though they didn't play any role here.

 

[ranmaru]

Votecount 2.4

2. UtopianPoyzin
4. Z25
5. Giraffelasergun: UtopianPoyzin, Sabrar
6. Pythag
7. Pokechu:
8. Kary
9. Sabrar

Not Voting
Z25, Giraffelasergun, Pythag, Pokechu, Kary;

Important Game Links
Game Links and Vote Counts

Notes:
N/A

*= Currently being replaced
^= V/LA

With 7 players, it takes 4 votes to lynch
The deadline for Day 2 is March 22nd, at 11:59 PM EST.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Not sure, we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

but-

Sheep me for an easy win!

hmmm

Regardless of whether or not you're interested in it, you made the comment, you should be able to explain it. How can you be so sure that it is play-style clashing? Why can't it be alignment-indicative and why is it terrible if it's not?

I absolutely can explain it. I actually think it's obvious to the point that I don't have to explain it.
I'm not certain that it's just play style but I didn't feel it would be very helpful to pursue it. More likely to be an obtuse, difficult person than being intentionally difficult as some sort of town or scum strategy.

Because scum has pre-set opinions which won't change based on reading, so they have less inclination to do so.

So anyone who doesn't read the thread closely is scum?

Tbh I think both of these points are more or less correct even though they didn't play any role here.

You realize that it's incredibly anti-town to write a post before reading your role PM? You're literally concealing your alignment from town.

 

[Sabrar]

So anyone who doesn't read the thread closely is scum?

More likely to be scum. There could be irl reasons.

You realize that it's incredibly anti-town to write a post before reading your role PM? You're literally concealing your alignment from town.

No I don't realize it. I've done the same on multiple occasion in the past and sometimes got very useful reads because of how people reacted to it. If the opening post would be my only contribution then it would be concealing yes, but that's not the case.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

No I don't realize it. I've done the same on multiple occasion in the past and sometimes got very useful reads because of how people reacted to it. If the opening post would be my only contribution then it would be concealing yes, but that's not the case.

So what if it helps you get reads? It hurts everyone else's reads on you.
This isn't RVS, you have 10 pages of stuff you could comment on and instead you decided to deny us information. That's blatantly anti-town.

 

[Sabrar]

I reiterate, you would only be correct if that would be my only post. Why can't you understand this?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I reiterate, you would only be correct if that would be my only post. Why can't you understand this?

So you admit it is anti-town but you think it's fine because it's only one post. Understood. This is the least interesting part of our conversation btw

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Scum wouldn’t admit to not reading their role PM. I think it’s alright tbh.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Scum wouldn’t admit to not reading their role PM. I think it’s alright tbh.

way to interrupt me

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Sabrar

 

[#HBC | Kary]

wow each day i find new keyboard combinations that randomly submit my post

sabrar, why is GLG mafia, in your own words?

 

[Sabrar]

Wasn't planning to continue this line of discussion anyway so nothing was lost there.

 

[Sabrar]

sabrar, why is GLG mafia, in your own words?

He is not proactive, not trying to solve the game. Acting surprised at Raxxel being NK feels forced.

Who is the one person you want to lynch most today? You don’t have to post an in depth reason as to why, just want to get a feeling of where everyone’s head is at going into the phase.

This could be a valid question coming from town, but the reasoning behind it is not from a townie pov, it helps scum much more who wants to know in advance what the possible wagons would be.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

He is not proactive, not trying to solve the game.

I mean he's not active, full stop. I like your other points though.

You said in your opening GLG 'started bad', do you have any points against him from his D1?

 

[Sabrar]

I gave some weight to Maven's reaction to him in #32 and this from #91 pinged me as a fabricate reason to be sus of people in the future.

I don't like it when players feel the need to say they're town, even if it is a joke so I'm going to remember that part.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I gave some weight to Maven's reaction to him in #32 and this from #91 pinged me as a fabricate reason to be sus of people in the future.

Okay. Just one more thing. What do you think of his reaction to his waggon / his play at the end of D1?

 

[Sabrar]

Okay. Just one more thing. What do you think of his reaction to his waggon / his play at the end of D1?

Not necessarily alignment-indicative. I managed to pull off a huge bluff as last scum in a recent game where I explained why I was the correct choice for the lynch, how to proceed the next day and even voted myself. Exact circumstances were a bit different but such play is not outside the realm of possibilities, just requires some gut.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Not necessarily alignment-indicative. I managed to pull off a huge bluff as last scum in a recent game where I explained why I was the correct choice for the lynch, how to proceed the next day and even voted myself. Exact circumstances were a bit different but such play is not outside the realm of possibilities, just requires some gut.

I feel like you didn't really answer the question.
GLG's situation is not quite the same as your example where you were the last scum alive, either.

 

[Z25]

Hi everyone!

It's a shame I had to replace bessie because she's the only one who could confirm what an amazing scum-hunter I am. Also now noone will understand my references.
Anyway we lynch GLG today, if he's town then scum is Kary + Z25. Sheep me for an easy win!
(GLG started out bad and never improved. Kary started bad, improved but slipped back due to interaction with bessie, Z25 started neutral then slipped heavily due to interaction with Pokechu who is my biggest town-read right now.)
UtopianPoyzin is most likely town and I just can't recall any amazing insight or action from Pythag, he's currently very neutral in my book.

#284 looks good for Kary if GLG is actual scum (though UtopianPoyzin makes a good argument against this in #400). If GLG is town then #289 and #294 confirm the other two as the scum-team.

@Kary: you never answered bessie what you found ridiculous about the no neutral line thing in #263, #268. You deflected in #269 and went from there. Also
"What I'm trying to do is get a useful answer out of you, apparently in vain." from #273 is just terrible. bessie explained herself clearly, you're just not willing to read.

Vote: giraffelasergun

PS: never had to sub in before, turns out re-reading is just not the same as actually living through how the interactions developed. Will appreciate if people point me to specific posts when they want my opinion.
PS2: wrote all of the above before receiving role-pm (but knowing that Maven and Raxxel were Town), haven't changed a single character. Make of that what you will.

Welcome to the site.

Gotta day your views are kinda of crazy. How you can read pokechu as a great slot is beyond me( no offense pokechu), and how you could see that as the scum team is a bit insane.

I literally said early on kary was my top town read and I would listen to them the most. If I was scum mates with them that would be quite frankly the stupidest decision I could make.

 

[Z25]

Z25 I thought you said you were going to post a reads list today? When's that coming bruh?

I said after today, I wanted to see our flip to finalize some thoughts. There’s a few slots I have good ideas on, but if the lynch today I’m thinking will be able to fully help me crack open things.

 

[Sabrar]

I feel like you didn't really answer the question.
GLG's situation is not quite the same as your example where you were the last scum alive, either.

I think I did. That answer could come from town who didn't really have the time to play and acknowledges the situation or scum playing a dangerous game because there was a lynch-alternative around. Personally I've never been mislynched on my old site and therefore don't have the mentality where I would resign myself to be lynched as town. Therefore it is harder for me to envision that pov from another player even though I have seen examples. So overall that response is neutral for me.

I literally said early on kary was my top town read and I would listen to them the most. If I was scum mates with them that would be quite frankly the stupidest decision I could make.

It is WIFOM. This game would be much easier if no scum ever put their partner as top town-read.

 

[Z25]

On my old site I've played for 3 years continuously, averaging about 1 game per 2 months. I've played a few IRL games couple of decades ago. According to Steam I have 259 hours in Throne of Lies (where games last anywhere between 2 and 20 minutes depending on when you get killed).
Don't really have any favorite roles as such, JOAT would be close I guess.

Not sure, we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

I didn't say it was the whole case, I just said they confirm it.

Regardless of whether or not you're interested in it, you made the comment, you should be able to explain it. How can you be so sure that it is play-style clashing? Why can't it be alignment-indicative and why is it terrible if it's not?

Because scum has pre-set opinions which won't change based on reading, so they have less inclination to do so.

Tbh I think both of these points are more or less correct even though they didn't play any role here.

More likely to be scum. There could be irl reasons.

No I don't realize it. I've done the same on multiple occasion in the past and sometimes got very useful reads because of how people reacted to it. If the opening post would be my only contribution then it would be concealing yes, but that's not the case.

UtopianPoyzin #HBC | Kary Pokechu giraffelasergun

Read the bolded, potential slip? I find it interesting how they pretty much cake in reading Pythag null, then made a comment how scum are people that wouldn’t read the thread as they had less reason to.

Then they backtrack and said that other then irl reasons. Which is interesting when Pythag said he hadn’t been too caught up or reading due to irl stuff.

Thoughts? Could Sab have been trying to low key provided protection other Pythag?

Specifically 446 mentions how they saw a lot had happened which seemed to imply they hadn’t caught up until then and had been away.

Might be a coincidence but that quick response to Kary saying irl could be a reasons feels almost a little unnatural to me.

 

[Sabrar]

How is that a backtrack? Kary asked why not reading would make her look scummy, I explained. I never claimed it to be a sure scum-tell.

 

[Sabrar]

I like how Z2S's first reaction is to attack me based on a strawman.

 

[Z25]

How is that a backtrack? Kary asked why not reading would make her look scummy, I explained. I never claimed it to be a sure scum-tell.

No but you conveniently left out that someone could just have irl stuff and not read a thread. Making assumptions for people on their not reading especially when the slot is considered pretty town this whole game; is a really odd move for someone in town. You can going after the most active player this game so yes that’s worth noting right off the bat especially when your opinion changes next post.

 

[Sabrar]

No but you conveniently left out that someone could just have irl stuff and not read a thread.

I did not leave it out. Scum has less reason to carefully read the game, that's a fact and an answer to Kary's question in itself without the second part.

You can going after the most active player this game so yes that’s worth noting right off the bat especially when your opinion changes next post.

Activity means nothing. If people's poting habits change between alignments then that's a sure way to lose as scum.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Sabrar looks good in my book. I do think that they've held their ground in their reasoning, especially after coming under recent fire. While they are definitely more brash than Bessie was, they are expressing a townie thought process which lines up in many places with my own.

UtopianPoyzin #HBC | Kary Pokechu giraffelasergun

Read the bolded, potential slip? I find it interesting how they pretty much cake in reading Pythag null, then made a comment how scum are people that wouldn’t read the thread as they had less reason to.

Then they backtrack and said that other then irl reasons. Which is interesting when Pythag said he hadn’t been too caught up or reading due to irl stuff.

Thoughts? Could Sab have been trying to low key provided protection other Pythag?

Specifically 446 mentions how they saw a lot had happened which seemed to imply they hadn’t caught up until then and had been away.

Might be a coincidence but that quick response to Kary saying irl could be a reasons feels almost a little unnatural to me.

I don't think that this is a scumslip. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your claim?

 

[Pokechu]

No but you conveniently left out that someone could just have irl stuff and not read a thread. Making assumptions for people on their not reading especially when the slot is considered pretty town this whole game; is a really odd move for someone in town. You can going after the most active player this game so yes that’s worth noting right off the bat especially when your opinion changes next post.

Just to be clear, you're saying here that it's suspicious how at first Sab (can I nickname you that?) at first made the blanket statement "Not being willing to read is scummy" but later expanded it to "but there could be IRL reasons"?

I don't think that's a scum tell. Like it's just common sense, imo, that IRL reasons would be the exception. You shouldn't be expected to add "qualifiers" or "exceptions" like that to every point made, the first time you make the point, and I know no one automatically does add them. Not alignment indicative really, they just furthered the thought

 

[Pokechu]

Just to be clear, you're saying here that it's suspicious how at first Sab (can I nickname you that?) at first made the blanket statement "Not being willing to read is scummy" but later expanded it to "but there could be IRL reasons"?

I don't think that's a scum tell. Like it's just common sense, imo, that IRL reasons would be the exception. You shouldn't be expected to add "qualifiers" or "exceptions" like that to every point made, the first time you make the point, and I know no one automatically does add them. Not alignment indicative really, they just furthered the thought

Also I think it's kind of weird how you're questioning them for attacking the "town-read" player (Kary) here

Making assumptions for people on their not reading especially when the slot is considered pretty town this whole game; is a really odd move for someone in town.

but you applauded Poyzin for doing it

About time we got some big content.
Honestly some of your points are interesting but it’s a lot to take in.

I guess that quote of yours was about their GLG vote and wall but it did heavily link it to a scum!Kary too. Like just because someone is universally town-read doesn't mean they shouldn't be immune to criticism I think

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Oh yeah I wanted to talk about Pokechu's readslist. Hi!

Alot of what has him on people's radars is that he's lacking town intent. But I see it the opposite way. He's not on my radar because he has no scum intent at all.

Are these not binary opposites to you? Like is there a third option? From my perspective, it can be either "has town intent" and "does not have town intent". There is no middle ground for me.

Like take this piece for example. At first I thought it strange, the fact that he just dropped it. Like after that post I made he let the point go. Scum could have easily pushed it still, and I think it looks better for scum to do that, even if I corrected him with how I only voted once with Kary. It shows motivation and acutness on his part as scum if he were to push it still, dropping it is a weak look. Like that's what really raised my unibrow here. GLG made the point that I was overly buddying, after I corrected him on it, GLG dropped the point while Z kept it on!! And it wasn't even Z's point! LOL

I don't see where you're going with this. GLG is town because he didn't continue with his line of reasoning? But scum would? Maybe GLG just didn't see a reason to continue with this because you corrected him and that he wouldn't gain any traction on you.

Even now he's kind of still skirting the lines for inactivity, like he hasn't shown up for almost three days. If it was scum!GLG being inactive I think he would try to make his posts "worth" more. Like put out more serious reads and posts in an attempt to not get attention. The fact that he's just really trying to get by, I feel it's town intent. like I've been in his shoes before.

How is this not simply scum!GLG not really caring about the game, but not wanting to give up? Town typically shouldn't try to "give up" on D1, especially when there's no substantial evidence against them. If there was, then I can see why a VT would withdraw due to ambiguity about the slot. But that's not the case here; town!GLG wouldn't have a reason to say "I'm VT. Lynching me is more helpful". I really think that it was NAI and unreadable.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I said after today, I wanted to see our flip to finalize some thoughts. There’s a few slots I have good ideas on, but if the lynch today I’m thinking will be able to fully help me crack open things.

uh okay

tell me again who did you want to lynch today?

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Also I think it's kind of weird how you're questioning them for attacking the "town-read" player (Kary) here

but you applauded Poyzin for doing it

I think that these are two completely different circumstances and not something you can use against Z25. I have many problems with your Z and Pythag read but I wanted to get the GLG one out of the way because it was on the last page and I need to hop around for the other two.

 

[Sabrar]

Sab (can I nickname you that?)

Sure, I got used to it on another forum.

 

[Pythag]

Hey friendo you mind making your own stance and perhaps read any part of my mega post? Please tell me how I’m wrong.

Hey, yes. I've read it. Also, sorry I wasn't trying to be disingenuous in my previous response, it just seemed you spent a LOT of time talking about kary.

I like your big post on GLG. I was for that lynch, and most of your quotes seem fair. I like your big post more than your EoD posts on GLG, which made me nervous.

Kary was my top town read at the time, and his main defense of GLG was that he looked town judging by his responses to the wagon, which is what gave me pause, especially when he was colliding with your views.

But by all accounts in my mind, Kary should be townreading you for the same response. You gave a reads list, you showed your line of reasoning, yet Kary voted you earlier today.

Kary why did you give GLG a pass and not UP. How were their responses different in your eyes?

I'm not ready to call Kary scummy because of that, but I am thinking of doing the scary thing and still voting GLG despite Kary's 'clear.'


Sabrar Welcome!

UtopianPoyzin #HBC | Kary Pokechu giraffelasergun

Read the bolded, potential slip? I find it interesting how they pretty much cake in reading Pythag null, then made a comment how scum are people that wouldn’t read the thread as they had less reason to.

Then they backtrack and said that other then irl reasons. Which is interesting when Pythag said he hadn’t been too caught up or reading due to irl stuff.

Thoughts? Could Sab have been trying to low key provided protection other Pythag?

Specifically 446 mentions how they saw a lot had happened which seemed to imply they hadn’t caught up until then and had been away.

But that slot under bessie wasn't interested at ALL in protecting me.
What were you thinking of that slot pre-sabrar?

@Kary double vote me?

PoE if you and UP is a TvT :
UP - Town
Kary - Town
Sabrar - Town (going off of my previous bessie read)

That leaves : GLG, Z25 and Pokechu.

Were I to trust your GLG read (over UP), that leaves the remaining Z25 and Pokechu as scum.

Kary, has Sabrar's play greatly affected your Bessie read?
Have you softened on UP? Do you think his play is scum, or just misguided?

Pokechu I have been one of your top reads for scummy play.
Yet you defended(?) me against Bessie? What's that about?

 

[Pokechu]

Are these not binary opposites to you? Like is there a third option? From my perspective, it can be either "has town intent" and "does not have town intent". There is no middle ground for me.

Yes, other options exist! Like, you can have town intent. You can have scum intent. You can be lacking town intent, or you can be lacking scum intent.

It's kind of like how there's two ways to get questions right on multiple choice tests. You can know which one answer choice is right, or you can know which three are wrong. And likewise to getting questions wrong. You can not be able to discern which one answer is right, or not be able to discern which three are wrong. There's a difference between all. I think there definitely is a middle ground and it allows for more perspectives than just simply "yes town intent" or "no town intent" would.

I don't see where you're going with this. GLG is town because he didn't continue with his line of reasoning? But scum would? Maybe GLG just didn't see a reason to continue with this because you corrected him and that he wouldn't gain any traction on you.

But Z kept on going and elaborated. That shows that there was still a way to gain traction and that it was still a "viable" observation. Like the point could have been saved. But GLG dropping it shows that he isn't out to get anyone - and scum is always out to get someone, right? And make them look bad? It kind of goes with my last point, that he has no scum intent.

Like even saying something like "This still feels forced as you never said you had a problem with being her doublevote and even seemed to find it funny; clearly seriously helping the town isn't a priority for you" would've helped, but he didn't. imo It looks much better to make something up than to just leave it.

How is this not simply scum!GLG not really caring about the game, but not wanting to give up? Town typically shouldn't try to "give up" on D1, especially when there's no substantial evidence against them. If there was, then I can see why a VT would withdraw due to ambiguity about the slot. But that's not the case here; town!GLG wouldn't have a reason to say "I'm VT. Lynching me is more helpful". I really think that it was NAI and unreadable.

I think GLG's mindset was, Maven was going to be replaced, so Maven's inactivity wouldn't be a problem. Thus we wouldn't really gain anything from lynching him, as the main reason we did it (lack of content) was going to be moot. However GLG had already been participating in the game so even if our reason for the lynch was the same, we would still get information from lynching the slot. I don't think it's scum!GLG because losing a scum D1 would be devastating for them. They have less numbers so they have more on their shoulders, so I think GLG would try to play "better". Like more meat than just almost ignoring your whole push on him on D1. But I guess that kind of falls into WIFOM

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

But GLG dropping it shows that he isn't out to get anyone - and scum is always out to get someone, right?

I disagree. I would say that scum is out to get anyone, and not just someone in particular. (They're out to get someone at night, but during the day they just prefer it not to be their scummate). But that's just my experience.

I think GLG's mindset was, Maven was going to be replaced, so Maven's inactivity wouldn't be a problem. Thus we wouldn't really gain anything from lynching him, as the main reason we did it (lack of content) was going to be moot. However GLG had already been participating in the game so even if our reason for the lynch was the same, we would still get information from lynching the slot. I don't think it's scum!GLG because losing a scum D1 would be devastating for them. They have less numbers so they have more on their shoulders, so I think GLG would try to play "better". Like more meat than just almost ignoring your whole push on him on D1. But I guess that kind of falls into WIFOM

This I guess is good point, because scum WOULD be devastated for losing GLG D1. That's where my Kary & GLG comes into play to swing the vote onto Maven, a completely viable lynch target going into the end of the day. So while I understand why you think the end of the day is good for him, it wouldn't be the first time that scum was lynched D1, and the mere act of him surviving it calmly isn't enough for me.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

This I guess is good point, because scum WOULD be devastated for losing GLG D1. That's where my Kary & GLG comes into play to swing the vote onto Maven, a completely viable lynch target going into the end of the day. So while I understand why you think the end of the day is good for him, it wouldn't be the first time that scum was lynched D1, and the mere act of him surviving it calmly isn't enough for me.

Maybe it's you and GLG as the scumteam, idk.

(And as an EBWOP, "you think the end of D1 is good for GLG")

It's kind of like how there's two ways to get questions right on multiple choice tests. You can know which one answer choice is right, or you can know which three are wrong. And likewise to getting questions wrong. You can not be able to discern which one answer is right, or not be able to discern which three are wrong. There's a difference between all. I think there definitely is a middle ground and it allows for more perspectives than just simply "yes town intent" or "no town intent" would.

Once again, I disagree. If you don't have town intent, then you have anti-town intent, or scum-intent.

 

[Pokechu]

I disagree. I would say that scum is out to get anyone, and not just someone in particular. (They're out to get someone at night, but during the day they just prefer it not to be their scummate). But that's just my experience.

I think we agree here! the someone in my sentence can be interchanged with "anyone", I just meant it singular because GLG was talking to me at the time

"But GLG dropping it shows he isn't out to get anyone - and scum is always out to get anyone, right?" like make someone/anyone look bad which I mentioned in the post

This I guess is good point, because scum WOULD be devastated for losing GLG D1. That's where my Kary & GLG comes into play to swing the vote onto Maven, a completely viable lynch target going into the end of the day. So while I understand why you think the end of the day is good for him, it wouldn't be the first time that scum was lynched D1, and the mere act of him surviving it calmly isn't enough for me.

Fair enough! I think we just agree to disagree here.

Once again, I disagree. If you don't have town intent, then you have anti-town intent, or scum-intent.

Fair enough as well! But I'm interested now. How do you feel about null reads? Since they're not town, but they're not scum. Are you okay with null reads - and if so, why are you okay with null reads but not looking at things from the four perspectives I listed?

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

Fair enough as well! But I'm interested now. How do you feel about null reads? Since they're not town, but they're not scum. Are you okay with null reads - and if so, why are you okay with null reads but not looking at things from the four perspectives I listed?

You're allowed to make null reads, and I do so all the time. The point of what I'm trying to say is that when you assume somebody's intentions, those intentions are either good intentions or bad intentions. Town, scum, and null reads are a completely different ballpark. But I don't want to delve into this too much. GLG either has good intentions (town) or bad intentions (anti-town). That is all. There is no null intentions.

I think we agree here! the someone in my sentence can be interchanged with "anyone", I just meant it singular because GLG was talking to me at the time

"But GLG dropping it shows he isn't out to get anyone - and scum is always out to get anyone, right?" like make someone/anyone look bad which I mentioned in the post

I don't think someone and anyone can be interchanged. Once GLG dropped the point on you, it's basically deciding that on D1 for GLG, the "anyone" that GLG is after happens to be "not you", and is somebody else instead.