Fixing Pikachu's moveset (issues)

[Player -0]

I don't see why skull bash would be used anyway, other than for recovery. Pika already has safer and better options.

The idea is to change it so you can use it.

Honestly I dont think its that important. What can pikachu do with skull bash that he couldnt do already? Yeah the move sucks but it wouldnt really add a lot to pika. If people are really looking for ideas on pika improvements, this is the order Id put them in

1. Mentioned uthrow fix already
2. Mentioned Brawl grab range
3. Mentioned melee tech in place (if its different)
4. Dtilt that keeps opponents close at low-mid% so it combos (like brawl) instead of sending them far away.
5. Less laggy dash attack
6. Less laggy jab or 64 jab to grab
7. Let skull bash charge instead of releasing or other skull bash improvement
8. 64 Quick Attack characteristics

5, 6, and 8 are pretty massive improvements though which is why theyre low.

64 QA characteristics? Invalidate everyone's camp tools and have a free out of jail card? Plus QACing.

 

[Comet7]

yes, but not all of pikachu's moves have to be good. i'm pretty sure only skull bash and dash attack are the only bad moves pikachu has. i view skull bash as an incentive to not mess up my QACs.

 

[Paradoxium]

Why on Earth would you want it to remain terrible? Please give me a legit reason as to why that move should be ****, I dont think there are any real reasons for that move to be awful.

 

[Pikabunz]

yes, but not all of pikachu's moves have to be good. i'm pretty sure only skull bash and dash attack are the only bad moves pikachu has. i view skull bash as an incentive to not mess up my QACs.

Jab is pretty bad too. I think those moves should at least have some utility. They don't have to be good, just not completely useless like they are now.

 

[Kerenthar]

Honestly I dont think its that important. What can pikachu do with skull bash that he couldnt do already? Yeah the move sucks but it wouldnt really add a lot to pika.

You are wrong. Respectfully, but a buffed Skull Bash could be the move that offer the kill power into combos that Pikachu needs, out of his Smash attacks. A pre-charged or Super Armored or swiftly Skull Bash (just examples) could be the small buff that makes Pikachu compete with Melee top tiers (I think every characters should be able to compete with them but reality is actually very different)

If people are really looking for ideas on pika improvements, this is the order Id put them in

1. Mentioned uthrow fix already
2. Mentioned Brawl grab range
3. Mentioned melee tech in place (if its different)
4. Dtilt that keeps opponents close at low-mid% so it combos (like brawl) instead of sending them far away.
5. Less laggy dash attack
6. Less laggy jab or 64 jab to grab
7. Let skull bash charge instead of releasing or other skull bash improvement
8. 64 Quick Attack characteristics

5, 6, and 8 are pretty massive improvements though which is why theyre low.

Good list. It mention almost all the weaknesses, but with point 4 I am not very convinced: keeps opponent close could works fine for combos, but sending opponents away works well with edgeguarding game... ... ...

 

[Paradoxium]

They don't have to be good, just not completely useless like they are now.

^^This^^^

Brilliant, truly brilliant. Outstanding work my friend. I don't want skullbash to be the next shine, I just don't want it to be complete **** anymore.

 

[Cassio]

Honestly theres just no reason to make every move usable. First of all because I'd rather that pikachu have all the tools he needs over fan service (not that fan service is bad but its not as important). And secondly almost every character has a move thats super situational and becomes part of what makes them unique or gives them character.

 

[Paradoxium]

Honestly theres just no reason to make every move usable. First of all because I'd rather that pikachu have all the tools he needs over fan service (not that fan service is bad but its not as important). And secondly almost every character has a move thats super situational and becomes part of what makes them unique or gives them character.

He can get both fan service and the tools he needs, you can have both. What was the point of bringing up his other tools if they have no affect on whether or not he gets a skullbash buff.

Second, just because every character has a move that is super situational doesn't mean Pikachu has to fall into that category. The only situational use skullbash has is recovering, i just want to be able to hit someone with skullbash and get rewarded for it. I dont understand your reasons for being so against skullbash, it wont hurt Pikachu in anyway, he will still get all of the appropriate buffs he needs.

And having a really ****ty skullbash in no way makes him unique, don't even try to argue that

 

[Kerenthar]

Honestly theres just no reason to make every move usable. First of all because I'd rather that pikachu have all the tools he needs over fan service (not that fan service is bad but its not as important). And secondly almost every character has a move thats super situational and becomes part of what makes them unique or gives them character.

This argument does not have a sustain. I remember the reason to split pokemon trainer's pokemons is to make them more viable improving his special moves and introducing new down specials for all three of them, but now characters have no reasons to makes his moves usable. If you are thinking about Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik's Side Special, or Falcon Neutral Special, that could be easy to understand (even in that case, everyone here thinks PMBR could be very creative in that way and give their special new uses without making them too over-powered), but many charactes in the roster still need some help and Skull Bash and Dash Attack, in Pikachu's case, are both useless moves.
Excuse me, please: sincerely, I am disagree with arguments like "there's no reason - that is the way it is - everyone else have it". Too bossy.
Just my humble opinion. No offense intended.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I agree with @ Paradoxium and @ Kerenthar with Pika's moves. Even if this sounds generalized, every character technically has the same number of moves, so if one move is never used because it is useless, then that limits that character's unpredictability, which gives your opponent a slight edge in guessing what you will do next. Since we already have characters with relatively complete movesets (such as Mario and Ivysaur), it would not be fair to just let other characters have dud moves. And I must stress my disdain for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. PM was created as a means to improve the game mechanics, so asking for some more utility on the more relatively useless moves shouldn't be looked down upon so much.

Skull bash at the moment is situational but not worth the risk of punish on its massive endlag because the quick use has pitiful damage and the charged use is easy to avoid/shield/punish. Even for recovering it kind of sucks because it has "sweetspotting lag", where Pika is just bashing into the wall for half a second before actually grabbing it. That's why it's pretty much only used really far offstage, and even then only high up because it has pretty bad vertical distance. Using it close to an opponent just says "Hey! Punish me!", which goes against Pika's archetype of being SUPER EFFECTIVE (sorry, had to) at close range.

I would actually like to see what would happen if the charge can be stored at various stages like DK's punch or Samus's charge shot. A full charge could be a combo finisher, but even partial charges can work for tech chasing, all while keeping the quick release for actual utility and carrying the risk of the endlag if you just skull bash out randomly. Pikachu actually has reason to not have a full charge too, because if you use it offstage you can possibly overshoot and end up above the stage where you are vulnerable to attack again, or better yet SD off a side blast zone because you're facing the wrong way. Plus the act of charging could bait opponents to punish, and then Pika can just cancel to OoS U smash or something.

 

[Cassio]

Youre not looking at the game the right way if you think their ability is held in changing the amount of useful moves a character has by 1 or 2. Thats a pretty big reason why it shouldnt be changed in the first place. Changing pikachu in one area really isnt worth it, its not just the fun and games you guys are suggesting. Changing pikachu will actually affect his game play and viability which in turn affects all other changes. You can't look at a move as an isolated item, and important changes are much more important to occur first.

 

[Paradoxium]

Youre not looking at the game the right way if you think their ability is held in changing the amount of useful moves a character has by 1 or 2. Thats a pretty big reason why it shouldnt be changed in the first place. Changing pikachu in one area really isnt worth it, its not just the fun and games you guys are suggesting. Changing pikachu will actually affect his game play and viability which in turn affects all other changes. You can't look at a move as an isolated item, and important changes are much more important to occur first.

Because the pmbr is so reckless and inexperienced that when they modify skull bash its gonna destroy the entire meta game along with overall balance.

And also the pmbr has horrible time management, so that when they buff skull bash they will have to postpone all other changes for another 2+ years.

 

[Kerenthar]

Sorry, you are not looking the change in the same way we propose. I think almost all here consider that Pikachu needs just a small buff to make it more viable. I cannot understand why less laggy dash attack or a pre-chargeable skull bash (or other minor change in those moves) will change the game so drastically.

Personally, this just confirm that Project M is actually being designed for a balanced Melee top tier match-up instead of a really balanced game.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Guys, I'm pretty sure we're all on the same page in wanting some minor tweaks to Pikachu. Rereading through the thread, Cassio definitely still wants improvement (which is why I find your response rather contradictory...?) but changes such as to the one for u throw are proposing extremely minor changes that have been "meta" tested in melee already, so we essentially know how they will affect Pika play. These are safe, which is fine. Changes to previously untouched moves like skull bash have not been tested, but that's all the more reason to do so - test and see what happens, and what's wrong with that? If it's too much, the PMBR retweaks. But we still need to try so that the facts are no longer unknowns, or at least trust that the PMBR is trying tweaks to see what works. Since there isn't much Pika representation out there, its more important for us to voice out or concerns or dissatisfaction with the way Pika works now, or they will never be addressed, and I thought that was the entire point of this thread.

So can we go back to discussing the changes in a more constructive manner? For example, from the list of changes from Cassio's post, what is the "melee tech in place" from Point 3? Is that the stuff with Uair?

 

[Kerenthar]

Good point. Why now Up aerial hit backwards? It is like helping the foes to recover U_U

 

[Choice Scarf]

That's the reverse semi spike, that has always been there. You need to hit the opponent one frame later for the forward semi spike

 

[Kerenthar]

Even in Melee? I never hit anyone in that way before T_T

 

[Choice Scarf]

Quoting N64, the active frames of Uair from melee (and by extension PM) are on frames 3-8, and the directions are:

3: Pops up
4: also Pops up
5: Reverse spike
6: Spike
7: Pops slightly up and behind
8: also Pops slightly up and behind

 

[Kerenthar]

Oh, I see.
Thanks for the info.

 

[Cassio]

I still disagree with the recent discussion. If the PMBR was making frequent changes on characters I would be ok with it, but from now on theyre gonna be infrequent and calculated especially for melee vets (which is for the best). For that reason Id rather have safe changes.

Tech in place, pika had the best tech in space in the game iirc with only two frames vulnerable. Im just unsure if thats the same or not.

 

[Paradoxium]

I agreed with almost all of Cassios proposed buffs, especially that uthrow.

And sorry for derailing the thread. This should be about fixing his move set and not adding what is unnecessary. So to end all discussions on this side b thing I leave you with this.

If the pmbr thinks they could buff skull bash without ruining any characters or game balance then they will, if they don't think the can manage skull bash then they won't. There nothing more to talk about.

 

[Comet7]

He can get both fan service and the tools he needs, you can have both. What was the point of bringing up his other tools if they have no affect on whether or not he gets a skullbash buff.

Second, just because every character has a move that is super situational doesn't mean Pikachu has to fall into that category. The only situational use skullbash has is recovering, i just want to be able to hit someone with skullbash and get rewarded for it. I dont understand your reasons for being so against skullbash, it wont hurt Pikachu in anyway, he will still get all of the appropriate buffs he needs.

And having a really ****ty skullbash in no way makes him unique, don't even try to argue that

@bolded: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. skull bash is already a great move, for the sole purpose of recovery

 

[Paradoxium]

@bolded: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. skull bash is already a great move, for the sole purpose of recovery

It's trash for recovery too genius, its just that no one knows that you can punish it. Anytime pikachu has to use his side b you can just jump out there and hit him, it's pretty easy tbh.

We all know that the one and only use it has is the rare occasions where Pikachus up b won't cut it for recovery, that is its only use. We want to use it for something creative, fun, and overall better. I don't get why people want it to remain as absolute ****.

 

[Boondocker]

Skull bash is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. Aside from the obvious recovery applications that is has, it is also extremely useful after a quick attack cancel. Often, while faking out your opponent, you will not have the range to hit them with anything other than skull bash and thunder jolt should they get faked out. At mid-high percents an uncharged skull bash can have just enough knockback to push opponents off the stage (where gimpachu wants them) and little enough lag that you can capitalize on the advantageous position. The sudden momentum change and range are very valuable to Pikachu, if it is used properly.

Skull bash can also be useful while faking a short hop Nair approach. Just run, short hop, and if they make a mistake expecting a Nair, skull bash to get them off stage (at mid-high percents). Defenders are getting better and better at timing Nair so the delay from skull bash can really throw them off.

While SHFFL'ing Bairs, skull bash can really catch someone by surprise.

Overall the move is high risk low reward. Either the ending lag should be cut or knockback greatly increased.

I would like to see the charge be able to get stored, but I think that might be too good on him. It is just too easy to threaten your opponent with the move while it is charging. It would be like a Luigi misfire, except Pikachu has way more air mobility than Luigi, and it would be much more reliable.

 

[Boondocker]

This message is a mistake.

 

[Choice Scarf]

Even though I totally agree with all of your points, it may be better to bring the skull bash discussion to this thread, just to avoid starting another argument about how much a priority skull bash is on the list of potential changes.

Anyway, I was reading other character threads and apparently the PMBR fixed release point issues on the ICs' throws. Perhaps that means they addressed Pika's Up throw as well?

 

[internetmovieguy]

Instead of adjusting pika's upthrow why not keep it and give his first/second jump more speed? (enough to be able to combo into up air)

 

[internetmovieguy]

So than we should just keep it absolutely terrible for the sake of it, because he has better and safer options we should leave this move god awful. There is no reason for this move to be that pitiful.

Did you not read my last post, it is not something that he needs but something that we want. Tweaking this move can inspire some creativity, earn some style points, and be really really fun. Why do you want to keep this move so bad?

Maybe have the move do a lot of knock back at point blank range.
Or be able to cancel the move to fake out the opponent.

 

[Comet7]

Well, since it seems likely that Pichu's not going to be in, Pikachu could steal his 3 frame jump.

 

[Angiance]

Pikas just want a different moveset because they lack the skill to utilize what is given; for shame, for shame

Bell A. Rosen~

 

[Paradoxium]

Skull bash is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. Aside from the obvious recovery applications that is has, it is also extremely useful after a quick attack cancel. Often, while faking out your opponent, you will not have the range to hit them with anything other than skull bash and thunder jolt should they get faked out. At mid-high percents an uncharged skull bash can have just enough knockback to push opponents off the stage (where gimpachu wants them) and little enough lag that you can capitalize on the advantageous position. The sudden momentum change and range are very valuable to Pikachu, if it is used properly.

Skull bash can also be useful while faking a short hop Nair approach. Just run, short hop, and if they make a mistake expecting a Nair, skull bash to get them off stage (at mid-high percents). Defenders are getting better and better at timing Nair so the delay from skull bash can really throw them off.

While SHFFL'ing Bairs, skull bash can really catch someone by surprise.

Overall the move is high risk low reward. Either the ending lag should be cut or knockback greatly increased.

I would like to see the charge be able to get stored, but I think that might be too good on him. It is just too easy to threaten your opponent with the move while it is charging. It would be like a Luigi misfire, except Pikachu has way more air mobility than Luigi, and it would be much more reliable.

Trust me, skull bash is just as bad as people make it out to be. Remember, this ****ty move has been around since melee and brawl. There is no reason to use this move other than recovery. It has insanely low priority, long start up, and a long cool down. A quick attack, or just a shffl is a faster, safer, and overall better option to use than skull bash. You can't fake a nair approach with skull bash because it has a long start up and moves slowly, so your opponents can react to it. And if you do somehow manage to hit them the move has such low knockback and hitstun, along with a long cooldown, that you won't be able to get anything out of it.

I am really against the idea of luigi misfire too, It's not something Pikachu needs or should have.

Instead of adjusting pika's upthrow why not keep it and give his first/second jump more speed? (enough to be able to combo into up air)

There is a reason why Pikachu needs his melee upthrow back. With his current upthrow you can still upair right after but that isn't what made the move good. With his melee upthrow he gets a chaingrab on the fast fallers and can also upthrow into upsmash. And with his melee upthrow he could throw into nair or bair.

Pikas just want a different moveset because they lack the skill to utilize what is given; for shame, for shame

Bell A. Rosen~

I agree, I think pikachu is very good and highly underrated. I just want his throws to be reverted to their melee form and maybe some cool other buff to his side b

 

[Angiance]

I mean, the reason U-Throw isn't made to be like it's Melee variant, is probably because they're trying to get rid of any loop in-game (U-Throw CG)

Loops take away from the experience in any game really, and make players quit

 

[Paradoxium]

I mean, the reason U-Throw isn't made to be like it's Melee variant, is probably because they're trying to get rid of any loop in-game (U-Throw CG)

Loops take away from the experience in any game really, and make players quit

Actually they didn't purposely change Pikachu's up throw, In 3.0 something went wrong and a lot of character's grab release points were shifted.

 

[Angiance]

Ohhhhh, thanks for the info

 

[internetmovieguy]

I mean, the reason U-Throw isn't made to be like it's Melee variant, is probably because they're trying to get rid of any loop in-game (U-Throw CG)

Loops take away from the experience in any game really, and make players quit

Exactly!! I would have stopped playing PM if they gave the ice climbers infinites

 

[Comet7]

Pikas just want a different moveset because they lack the skill to utilize what is given; for shame, for shame

Bell A. Rosen~

Just because the button for posting is there, it doesn't mean it should always be used. #i'll beat you in the ditto any day of the week

You can already do up thow --> anything at low %, though you probably already know that. It'd still be really nice if up throw was fixed.

 

[Angiance]

#i'll beat you in the ditto any day of the week

4254-9362-5832

 

[Paradoxium]

#i'll beat you in the ditto any day of the week

Bruh, you gotta be prepared to back that up

 

[Comet7]

4254-9362-5832

Sorry, legitimately don't have the ability to play online, my laptop's busted so I don't have a way to get wifi. Probably shouldn't have said that, though...

Bruh, you gotta be prepared to back that up

i honestly wouldn't be worried about somebody who say silly stuff like "PMBR wants to removes CGs" and comes to this thread to effectively say "lolunoobs", which was actually what i was going to call him out for in the first place

 

[Angiance]

Heh, we'll meet up offline eventually. You're marked now~