Fix this team (no rating)

[Deleted member]

Metagross @ Occa Berry
Clear Body, Jolly
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Spe
Stealth Rock
Bullet Punch
Earthquake
Explosion

Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician, Adamant
24 HP / 252 Att / 232 Spe
Swords Dance
Bullet Punch
Superpower
X-scissor

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire, Rash
20 Att / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Fire Blast
Explosion

Rotom-H @ Leftovers
Levitate, Bold
252 HP / 200 Def / 56 spe
Will-O-Wisp
Shadow Ball
Sleep Talk
Rest

Latias @ Choice Specs
Levitate, Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Draco Meteor
Trick
Surf

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb, Bold
188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
30 SpA IV
HP Electric 70
Protect
Wish
Surf

Person with the best answer gets something good. You have 1 week.

 

[Grunt]

Needs Breloom.

 

[Deleted member]

Needs Breloom.

The only good thing you'll be getting with an answer like that is banned. Think of it as euthanasia and it's still a good thing.

 

[Ugg]

I was thinking you could get HP Ice over Dragon Pulse for Heatran?

 

[Grunt]

The only good thing you'll be getting with an answer like that is banned. Think of it as euthanasia and it's still a good thing.

lol, you're really not that unpredictable.

But try HP Ice on heatran over Dragon pulse, since the only thing i can see it being used for is hitting dragons, in which case ice would 4x dragnite, mence and flygon. the only thing would be kingdra, but you'd probably want to switch out anyways.

Also maybe Zen Headbutt on Metagross for fighting types and/or Gengar, but its probably not as important.

 

[ss118]

So we just have to "fix" this team not rate it? I'm sure we have to list reasons why also.

I know what I'm doing tomorrow in American History. ^^

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Metagross @ Occa Berry
Clear Body, Jolly
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Spe
Stealth Rock
Bullet Punch
Earthquake
Explosion

Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician, Adamant
24 HP / 252 Att / 232 Spe
Swords Dance
Bullet Punch
Superpower
X-scissor

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire, Rash
20 Att / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Fire Blast
Explosion

Rotom @ Leftovers
Levitate, Bold
252 HP / 200 Def / 56 spe
Will-O-Wisp
Shadow Ball
Sleep Talk
Rest

Latias @ Choice Specs
Levitate, Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Draco Meteor
Trick
Surf

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb, Bold
188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
30 SpA IV
HP Electric 70
Protect
Wish
Surf

Person with the best answer gets something good. You have 1 week.

Didn't you suggest someone else use this exact team, except for the Latias?

I don't see anything necesarily wrong with replacing Latias with Breloom...

However, I think that putting two dragon attacks on Latias is redundant. swap one out for thunderbolt.

I am highly skeptical of your rotom usage. Perhaps rotom-H with a choice item, trick, and overheat? I don't think Rotom is defencive enough to run a rest-talk.

Is choice scarf really necesary on Heatran? Is it significantly better than choice specs? Are you sure you want any choice item at all?

What's with all the stealth rocks? typically, I find them highly overrated. Agiligross might be fun, but unnecesary.

And lastly, do you mind if I use this exact team in the tournament?

EDIT: also, typically the cost of a choice item outweighs the benefit. If your using this, you better know what your doing, as a lot of these pokemon are obvious candidates for choice items, and may lead you to be predictable.

I can't wait to see how you use a Garchomp. Hopefully without choice items. Your suggested teams are always choice-filled, and that would be waaaay to predictable lol

Spoiler

Of course, I'm making waaaay to many assumptions, so some if not all of them are bound to be wrong. I might be able to guess what most people would do some of the time, but I can not hope to correctly guess why, and I can't even be completely sure about what you will do minus the why.

 

[Niiro]

Metagross @ Occa Berry
Clear Body, Jolly
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Spe
Stealth Rock
Bullet Punch
Earthquake
Explosion
i thought you were unpredictable. i was wrong. not that there is anything wrong with this set tho.

Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician, Adamant
24 HP / 252 Att / 232 Spe
Swords Dance
Bullet Punch
Superpower
X-scissor
fine

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire, Rash
20 Att / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Fire Blast
Explosion
you almost need max speed to speed tie with other heatran and ****. but i never ever ever used explosion once on my heatran. it is only practical if you switch in ur heatran as ur opponent switches in somthing like a protectless blissey the same turn.

Rotom @ Leftovers
Levitate, Bold
252 HP / 200 Def / 56 spe
Will-O-Wisp
Shadow Ball
Sleep Talk
Rest
i hate rest talk sets. shoddy always picks rest >.>

Latias @ Choice Specs
Levitate, Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Draco Meteor
Trick
Surf
fine

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb, Bold
188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
30 SpA IV
HP Electric 70
Protect
Wish
Surf
fine. choice specs hydropump would be moar cool tho.

Person with the best answer gets something good. You have 1 week.

notice i had really nothing important to say. since im a rebel: 9/10

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Either way, it's a nice team.

I doubt it can beat my team though, lol

It's too common for it's own good. Nobody is going to be taken by surprise except by the Rotom, which I'm pretty sure isn't defensive enough to run that moveset. After all, you really need to be able to take three hits if you do rest-talk,and I don't believe burning your opponent is going to be effective enough to protect that Rotom.

 

[Grunt]

the only reason i can see using rotom would be for typing, but why not use a form of rotom? it has better stats and can do the same thing, like almost every other ghost.
like rotom-X's can all do this too with better defensive stats. the only thing I can see rotom being useful is for its higher SpA. But if that's the case, why not use a sleep talking Gengar set? it'd probably be mindgamealicious and has the best shadow ball. Plus I'm not sure the electric typing gains you anything useful.

Also, Draco Meteor and dragon pulse does seem repetitive. since steel is resistant to Dragon maybe try HP Ground or Fire. probably ground just for the broader usefulness of ground type.

On Vaporeon, switch surf with water pulse. Latias already rocks it with surf and can switch out against most stuff you would want to surf anyways. The added confusion could be really useful for being annoying with your bulky set.

 

[ss118]

It's a rotom form: he's too **** lazy to care enough to change a letter for you all though.

 

[Circa]

Get rid of stealth rock and give it meteor mash. We DID just discuss that in the metagame discussion thread, after all.

Scizor is ew. If you're going to kick my *** with priority, at least make it something I can respect that isn't as gay as Richard Simmons. You know, something cool...like a banded Sharpedo with aqua jet that really only works late-game. It'll die a lot, but at least you'll get cool points.

ScarfTran is used so much for revenge killing that it may as well not be called a revenge killer set anymore, but instead be called counter-bringer. Get rid of the scarf, give it leftovers/shuca berry, and then do something mindgame-y and give it sub over dragon pulse. Hell, you can even give it toxic over explosion if you wish. At least then you can switch it out for later use.

Meh, it's Rotom. It may be OU, but it's not overused in OU. Mix it with the Heatran set I suggested and you have something worth talking about that isn't seen all too often.

Latias...uhhh...I don't really know much about Latias. It's supposedly about as common as Lucario, but I actually haven't seen one in a while (despite seeing Lucario in what seems to be about every battle). I guess it's alright?

It's Vaporeon. Yayyy. I agree with Niiro though. Specs Vaporeon with hydro pump would be mad sexy.

Sadly, as standard as this team is, it would probably work decently well. It somehow has excellent type coverage and consists of some of the "best" things in OU. If I were to say that there would be anything to truly fix about this team, it would be to throw out nearly everything, start from scratch, and find something more original that people won't groan about when they have to face it after they've faced its 1,000 clones.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Sadly, as standard as this team is, it would probably work decently well. It somehow has excellent type coverage and consists of some of the "best" things in OU. If I were to say that there would be anything to truly fix about this team, it would be to throw out nearly everything, start from scratch, and find something more original that people won't groan about when they have to face it after they've faced its 1,000 clones.

I wish more people were anti-metagamey.

Instead of this team, why not use one that counters it completely?

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Metagross @ Occa Berry
Clear Body, Jolly
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Spe
Stealth Rock
Bullet Punch
Earthquake
Explosion

It's fine like this. This set can beat all the top 5 leads.

Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician, Adamant
24 HP / 252 Att / 232 Spe
Swords Dance
Bullet Punch
Superpower
X-scissor

I highly recommend using the Choice Band set, early game lets you scout your opponent pokemon and late game lets you take out the trash. With this set you're walled by many pokemon and forced to switch....

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire, Rash
20 Att / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Fire Blast
Explosion

It's fine, though highly predictable...... I'll recommend the substitute set and toxic Heatran counters on the switch.

Rotom @ Leftovers
Levitate, Bold
252 HP / 200 Def / 56 spe
Will-O-Wisp
Shadow Ball
Sleep Talk
Rest

It's fine I guess, I can't face Rotom so I don't know to much about them.

Latias @ Choice Specs
Levitate, Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Draco Meteor
Trick
Surf

It's fine, though I perfer the Choice Scarf one with Draco Meteor, Thunderbolt, Trick, Surf..... you can switch on Sala/Gyara DD and outspeed and OHKO them in the process. It's better at revenge killing than Heatran.

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb, Bold
188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
30 SpA IV
HP Electric 70
Protect
Wish
Surf

Your team is Gyarados weak, so this is perfect. Though I don't know why you have those 68 Spd EVs, it's better if you invest those into SAtk or HP.

Person with the best answer gets something good. You have 1 week.

Not a bad team..... not that many glaring weaknesses and such and it has an answer to every OU pokemon. 8.5/10

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Not a bad team..... not that many glaring weaknesses and such and it has an answer to every OU pokemon. 8.5/10

Ah, but Milotic isn't OU

 

[Famous]

Metagross @ Occa Berry
Clear Body, Jolly
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Spe
Stealth Rock
Bullet Punch
Earthquake
Explosion

Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician, Adamant
24 HP / 252 Att / 232 Spe
Swords Dance
Bullet Punch
Superpower
X-scissor

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire, Rash
20 Att / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Fire Blast
Explosion

Rotom @ Leftovers
Levitate, Bold
252 HP / 200 Def / 56 spe
Will-O-Wisp
Shadow Ball
Sleep Talk
Rest

Latias @ Choice Specs
Levitate, Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Draco Meteor
Trick
Surf

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb, Bold
188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
30 SpA IV
HP Electric 70
Protect
Wish
Surf

Person with the best answer gets something good. You have 1 week.

Instead of going into detail about how your stats are, can I just point some obvious things out?

1. You have 2 Steel types meaning 1/3 of your roster will get pounded by a Fire type Fire/Dark....A Houndoom would reek havok on 2/3 of your roster


I know your saying "But thats why Metagross has earthquake" A charizard/Houndoom equip with a choice band/Fire plate could 1 hit KO with Fireblast leaving you with Heatran/Vaporeon for the type advantage. The trainer won't be naive to keep it's fire type out there long enough for you to kill it with Heatran

 

[WouW]

That's why Metagross has a Occa Berry. Also, Latias would OHKO it with Surf before your Houndoom could attack it.
Also, I stopped reading after CB Fire Blast and Fire Plate.

 

[Famous]

That's why Metagross has a Occa Berry. Also, Latias would OHKO it with Surf before your Houndoom could attack it.
Also, I stopped reading after CB Fire Blast and Fire Plate.

Yeah, I'm a bit behind on hold items...Haven't been playing Pokemon competitively for awhile....

 

[Pink Reaper]

I suggest going with Lloyd/Genis/Raine/Presea. Give Lloyd Sword Rain Alpha/Raining Tiger Blade/Beast Sword Rain and Raising Falcon and set Genis' Cyclone and Tidal Wave to the C-Stick. Set Raine to priority healing and turn off everything except Revitalize, Acuteness, Permaguard, Ray, Photon and maybe Purify if you're not feeling hot on the Status', although you might just be better setting that to off and using it manually when you see fit. Don't bother with Resurrection, the amount of time it takes to actually use the spell and the amount of TP it takes means you're better off with just using Life Bottles. For Genis, he only really wants Explosion/Indignation/Cyclone/Ground Dasher/Tidal Wave. All his other spells are a combination of weaker and less useful than those 6 so don't bother with anything else. For Presea, keep all her techs, she's rather good at linking them, but turn off Beast as it will end your combos. If you're dead set on using Sheena you can go ahead and do the same as you would with Presea, but turn off Pyre Seal as it does the same thing as Beast.

 

[ss118]

That sounds like fire emblem or something.... @_@

 

[Famous]

It's from Tales of Symphonia IMO

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Instead of going into detail about how your stats are, can I just point some obvious things out?

1. You have 2 Steel types meaning 1/3 of your roster will get pounded by a Fire type Fire/Dark....A Houndoom would reek havok on 2/3 of your roster


I know your saying "But thats why Metagross has earthquake" A charizard/Houndoom equip with a choice band/Fire plate could 1 hit KO with Fireblast leaving you with Heatran/Vaporeon for the type advantage. The trainer won't be naive to keep it's fire type out there long enough for you to kill it with Heatran

lol bad advice >.>

 

[Deleted member]

If you'll notice, this team has 3 steel types, not two. Fixed Rotom to be Rotom-H.

For Genis, he only really wants Explosion/Indignation/Cyclone/Ground Dasher/Tidal Wave. All his other spells are a combination of weaker and less useful than those 6 so don't bother with anything else.

There's only 5 listed.

I got the ring thing last night, then chu dragged me to maryland for a smashfest till 7 AM. Will play much more later today.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The team is average. Which means a non-average team can destroy it. I'd have better luck countering it with UU pokemon that OU pokemon.

Beware of a Ninjask baton passing to a Marowak. Marowak's a beast. Scarf Chomp would have fun too.

But what you don't have to worry about at all is common pokemon.

 

[Rubyiris]

HP-Ice on Heatran. Dragon Pulse is balls.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

In response to my own post,

Ninjask + Garchomp = clean sweep.

 

[Pink Reaper]

If you'll notice, this team has 3 steel types, not two. Fixed Rotom to be Rotom-H.



There's only 5 listed.

I got the ring thing last night, then chu dragged me to maryland for a smashfest till 7 AM. Will play much more later today.

Sorry, meant to add "Meteor Storm" into that list.

 

[Circa]

I suggest going with Lloyd/Genis/Raine/Presea. Give Lloyd Sword Rain Alpha/Raining Tiger Blade/Beast Sword Rain and Raising Falcon and set Genis' Cyclone and Tidal Wave to the C-Stick. Set Raine to priority healing and turn off everything except Revitalize, Acuteness, Permaguard, Ray, Photon and maybe Purify if you're not feeling hot on the Status', although you might just be better setting that to off and using it manually when you see fit. Don't bother with Resurrection, the amount of time it takes to actually use the spell and the amount of TP it takes means you're better off with just using Life Bottles. For Genis, he only really wants Explosion/Indignation/Cyclone/Ground Dasher/Tidal Wave. All his other spells are a combination of weaker and less useful than those 6 so don't bother with anything else. For Presea, keep all her techs, she's rather good at linking them, but turn off Beast as it will end your combos. If you're dead set on using Sheena you can go ahead and do the same as you would with Presea, but turn off Pyre Seal as it does the same thing as Beast.

That's the best advice I've ever heard, whether it be for Pokemon or Tales of Symphonia.

ToS rocks my socks.

 

[0RLY]

I see no problems with the actual sets themselves. I also see no problems with the actual weaknesses in the team. Coverage is lacking, but that's not exactly a "problem", just something skill can get you around.

The only thing I can really point out is that your Magnezone counters all know Explosion.

Oh wait, I think Reaps' BabiriTar shreds a hole through your team.

Yeah, I think I'm just going to stop thinking right now. My room's starting to get really warm. Also, I noticed this...

Person with the best answer gets something good. You have 1 week.

It says "best answer". It doesn't really mention that it has to be related to Pokemon. Having said that, Reaps probably wins.

 

[Famous]

lol bad advice >.>

Lol, yeah....I'll stick to giving advice in smash until I get the rust off my pokeknowledge...

 

[SpelignFial]

In response to my own post,

Ninjask + Garchomp = clean sweep.

OMG i have to do that now there has got to be a way to fit it in my tourney team.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Metagross @ Occa Berry
Clear Body, Jolly
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Spe
Stealth Rock
Bullet Punch
Earthquake
Explosion

A 252 HP spread might be better, primarily to give it some survivability against Swampert leads. Aside from that this is very standard.

Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician, Adamant
24 HP / 252 Att / 232 Spe
Swords Dance
Bullet Punch
Superpower
X-scissor

Blissey walls a lot of your team aside from Metagross (which may not survive until your opponent reveals Blissey) and your Blissey solutions aren't the most reliable (Trick Latias or Explosion from Heatran), so Scizor seems vital to your team. Not to be boring, but because you want it to last through the whole game, I'm inclined to use a standard CB set so that you can scout for its counters with U-turn. CB Scizor can come into play earlier in the game, and will wear down your opponent's special walls more efficiently.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire, Rash
20 Att / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Fire Blast
Explosion

This seems to fit your team perfectly; it deals with the Steels that stand in the way of Latias while simultaneously supporting Scizor. Contrary to what others are saying, I would probably keep Dragon Pulse because it forces Steel-types out (the more information the better) and has superior neutral coverage to HP Ice.

Rotom-H @ Leftovers
Levitate, Bold
252 HP / 200 Def / 56 spe
Will-O-Wisp
Shadow Ball
Sleep Talk
Rest

So Will-O-Wisp cuts down physical attackers for Vaporeon, but Rotom isn't the most reliable choice for physical walling -- you could use something that also supports your team offensively. Ttar could pose a problem for your offensive core with it's high spdef, and an attacking combination that can consist of Pursuit, Earthquake, Fire Punch, or Focus Punch/Superpower. Scizor can handle him at the risk of being OHKO'd by Fire Punch. Instead you could try Machamp here. Machamp resists his STABs, hits back hard with STAB DynamicPunch, supports Latias well, and can even play the same role as Rotom.

Machamp @ Leftovers
No Guard
Adamant
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- DynamicPunch
- Payback
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Alternatively, if you intend to be absorbing status with him, you can use Guts and drop DynamicPunch for Revenge. Machamp again gives your team more ease in breaking down special walls and is bulky enough to take physical hits.

Latias @ Choice Specs
Levitate, Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Draco Meteor
Trick
Surf

I have a lot to say about this one. It's a good and underused set, but there are some interesting things you could do with Latias here. From what I understand, her primary goal is to weaken counters early game to prepare for a late game sweep (usually with the neutral coverage from Dragon Pulse). However, it makes an interesting offensive combination with Heatran; they type-cover each other well, and Heatran takes out the Steels that resist her STAB attacks. Since Heatran tends to draw bulky waters, drop either Dragon Pulse or Surf for Thunderbolt.

Scarf Latias is also an interesting option; it outspeeds both Gyarados (which will try to set up on Heatran) and Mence after one DD, and easily OHKO either of them. While switching in on Mence may not be safe because of the possibility of MixMence, you can still revenge kill it. Either of them will be resistant to switch out if you have SR set up, so you may very well take out their sweeper painlessly.

Latias @ Choice Scarf
Levitate
Timid
76 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe <-- outspeeds Mence after one DD
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse / Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb, Bold
188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
30 SpA IV
HP Electric 70
Protect
Wish
Surf

This is kind of odd, but I can't say there's anything wrong with it. I'll have to test it out and edit this part later.

Person with the best answer gets something good. You have 1 week.

So you have an offensive core of Heatran, Latias, Scizor, Machamp that take care of each others counters. Zapdos is a potential threat; STAB Thunderbolt can take a chunk out of Heatran and Vaporeon, Heat Wave OHKOs Scizor and the only thing that can really take hits from it is Latias. I might have to rethink Machamp/Vaporeon, and analyze more threats, but aside from that this looks good to me.

 

[KrazyGlue]

Metagross @ Occa Berry
Clear Body, Jolly
4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Spe
Stealth Rock
Bullet Punch
Earthquake
Explosion

Generic lead. Although you could shave off 88 speed EVs (and place them defensively) and still outrun adamant metagross.

Scizor @ Life Orb
Technician, Adamant
24 HP / 252 Att / 232 Spe
Swords Dance
Bullet Punch
Superpower
X-scissor

Pretty generic. However, I think it would be a good idea to transfer 4 of those HP EVs over to speed in order to outrun other sets like this. I bet outspeeding other sets like this will do a lot more good than having 1 extra HP.

@Kyu: CB really isn't scizor's best option. That kills swords dance, which is part of the main combo that makes scizor so dominant (switch in at a good time, SD when they switch out, bullet punch a lot).

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Flash Fire, Rash
20 Att / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Fire Blast
Explosion

I gotta disagree with Kyu, here's why:

1. Why does it force steel types out? Dragon is weak against steel...

2. Neutral coverage doesn't really matter, since heatran has a choice item. It's a revenge killer, not a sweeper. If you use dragon pulse or HP ice, your opponent will just switch in a steel type and your neutral coverage against other types won't matter.

3. Dragon pulse is only there to hit dragons. And the only common dragons have a 4x weakness to ice, thus making HP ice more powerful than dragon pulse.

HP ice>dragon pulse

Anyways, the rest of the set looks good.

Rotom-H @ Leftovers
Levitate, Bold
252 HP / 200 Def / 56 spe
Will-O-Wisp
Shadow Ball
Sleep Talk
Rest

Again, I would toss 4 of those HP EVs into speed. Outspeeding and unpredictability are extremely important, especially for a pretty generic team such as this one.

Seriously, I don't think the extra 1 HP would do you any good.

I also don't think you should replace it with machamp. Machamp really isn't a good rest-talker.

Latias @ Choice Specs
Levitate, Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Dragon Pulse
Draco Meteor
Trick
Surf

I would agree with Kyu that you should try thunderbolt, especially considering you really don't have much to scare bulky waters. Considering you are running specs, draco meteor>dragon pulse, so I would take dragon pulse out and put thunderbolt in.

Kyu brings up a good point with a possible scarf set. It really depends on personal preerence.

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb, Bold
188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
30 SpA IV
HP Electric 70
Protect
Wish
Surf

Pretty standard. Nothing wrong with it, I suppose. There's always that EV switch that I keep mentioning (4 HP-->4 speed). I think those could really help keep your seemingly generic team unpredictable and fast. Unless you continuously end up with 1 HP, adding that speed is your best option imo.
_______________________________

Also, someone said get rid of SR, I believe. I would have to disagree. Stealth rocks is important because this team relies a lot on set ups and revenge kills, and if the opponent had SR, they could just play a switching game and force this team to take extra damage.
_______________________________

Oh, just in case:

1. Your team is weak to Infernape.
2. You have no Tyranitar counters
3. If Gyarados gets a DD it sweeps your team.

 

[Circa]

2. Neutral coverage doesn't really matter, since heatran has a choice item. It's a revenge killer, not a sweeper. If you use dragon pulse or HP ice, your opponent will just switch in a steel type and your neutral coverage against other types won't matter.

No idiot is going to bring in a steel type to counter Heatran. Maybe revenge kill (in which case you just switch like you would probably normally do), but never counter. And neutral damage does matter a lot in this case, because like I said in my post; Heatran isn't really a revenge killer anymore, it's more of a counter-bringer. People know to expect Heatran, and they WILL carry something to counter it. When you send out Heatran for that revenge kill, they are almost guaranteed to switch into that counter. That's why you give Heatran something that's very good for neutral damage and also severely hurts a couple of its counters. Dragon pulse, unlike HP Ice, isn't stopped by your general bulky water; one of Heatran's most reliable counters. Sure it may not kill them, but it'll still take out a much bigger chunk, and does so against all things that both hit neutral as well. When Kyu said neutral coverage, that's what was implied. Generally, the trade-off for better neutral hits and coverage is going to be worth it.

3. Dragon pulse is only there to hit dragons. And the only common dragons have a 4x weakness to ice, thus making HP ice more powerful than dragon pulse.

HP ice>dragon pulse

I love it how you guys (I believe that someone else mentioned this before as well?) say that the only common dragons are 4x weak to ice, when the second most common dragon in OU is only 2x weak to ice and has the capability to wall special sweepers just slightly worse than Blissey (and in some cases even better, thanks to its movepool). Plus, it's only sitting two places lower on this team! My goodness...you people scare me sometimes.

Anyway, as for the discussion, Pulse 2HKOs Mence and ScarfTran outspeeds, meaning it's guaranteed the KO if they decide to stay in anyway. So as for the concept that HP Ice is worth that OHKO, it really won't matter, because Mence is going to die no matter what, and Heatran still isn't going to be hurt. Pulse is also guaranteed to 2HKO all "standard" Latias sets that carry a medium amount of HP EVs or less, which, statistically, happens to be 75% of all the Latias you will face. HP Ice, however, doesn't guarantee that extra 25% of Latias coverage that Dragon Pulse does. The only true dragon type you would still have to watch for with Pulse is Flygon, because it's Scarfed a lot and Pulse only has a slim chance of OHKO. But Flygon isn't nearly powerful enough when Scarfed to pose a huge overall threat as it is, so all you'd have to do is switch out and you're safe.

So yeah, between neutral coverage, base power, and it's ability to still kill the dragons it's intended for, Pulse > HP Ice.

Also, the thing I said about Metagross was supposed to be a bit of a joke. In fact, I'm pretty sure this team is meant to be a joke, seeing as he was joking about it in the Metagame Discussion Thread. And sorry for the wall of text. I just couldn't help myself.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Pretty generic. However, I think it would be a good idea to transfer 4 of those HP EVs over to speed in order to outrun other sets like this. I bet outspeeding other sets like this will do a lot more good than having 1 extra HP.

@Kyu: CB really isn't scizor's best option. That kills swords dance, which is part of the main combo that makes scizor so dominant (switch in at a good time, SD when they switch out, bullet punch a lot).

That's not true at all. Scizor has been dominant on Shoddy, and over 50% of them carry CB (from Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics, April). Nearly every team carries a Scizor counter that is able to deal with the SD set. Rotom switches in on the SD, Bullet Punch always fails to OHKO, they OHKO. It's true that he could switch in Heatran to absorb the hit, but it could end up taking 50% from a Thunderbolt or HP Fighting. The point of CB Scizor is that it ALWAYS has the +1 Attack Stage boost. It can come in on fragile set-up sweepers and Bullet Punch if it needs to, and most of the time it can hit with a strong U-turn to scout and draw out counters. My point was that SD Scizor can't safely set-up until the end of the game when you've gotten rid of or weakened all of their counters, while he NEEDS Scizor as he is very low on physical attacks.

I gotta disagree with Kyu, here's why:

1. Why does it force steel types out? Dragon is weak against steel...

2. Neutral coverage doesn't really matter, since heatran has a choice item. It's a revenge killer, not a sweeper. If you use dragon pulse or HP ice, your opponent will just switch in a steel type and your neutral coverage against other types won't matter.

3. Dragon pulse is only there to hit dragons. And the only common dragons have a 4x weakness to ice, thus making HP ice more powerful than dragon pulse.

HP ice>dragon pulse

Anyways, the rest of the set looks good.

timssu already brought up some important points. I'll respond to these directly though because you seem to be attacking my post.

1. It forces Steel types to COME out, because very little else wants to switch in on the neutral hit. For Latias to be an effective sweeper, he wants to know all of the pokemon that could potentially wall it on the other team. By baiting out Steel-types, he knows what he has to eliminate or at least what to expect will come in on Latias.

2. Neutral coverage matters much more because Heatran carries a choice item. Normally on any given pokemon you have attacking types that complement each other. When you're stuck in a single move, you want it to cover as many switches as possible. As timssu already brought up, bulky waters are some of the most common Heatran counters -- Dragon Pulse will do some damage to them while HP Ice would be easily walled.

3. Either move will kill Dragons. Point (2) covers the rest of this.

Edit -- If you want to keep your holy ghost I would just go with a WoW/Overheat/Thunderbolt/HP Fighting set as additional support for Latias. It can lure T-tar, burn it and weaken/kill it.

 

[KrazyGlue]

No idiot is going to bring in a steel type to counter Heatran. Maybe revenge kill (in which case you just switch like you would probably normally do), but never counter.

If heatran has a choice scarf and uses dragon pulse or hp ice, of course steel is a good switch in.

And neutral damage does matter a lot in this case, because like I said in my post; Heatran isn't really a revenge killer anymore, it's more of a counter-bringer. People know to expect Heatran, and they WILL carry something to counter it. When you send out Heatran for that revenge kill, they are almost guaranteed to switch into that counter. That's why you give Heatran something that's very good for neutral damage and also severely hurts a couple of its counters. Dragon pulse, unlike HP Ice, isn't stopped by your general bulky water; one of Heatran's most reliable counters. Sure it may not kill them, but it'll still take out a much bigger chunk, and does so against all things that both hit neutral as well. When Kyu said neutral coverage, that's what was implied. Generally, the trade-off for better neutral hits and coverage is going to be worth it.

It's more likely that you're actually facing someone with an ounce of intelligence that will switch in something that takes reduced damage from both.

I love it how you guys (I believe that someone else mentioned this before as well?) say that the only common dragons are 4x weak to ice, when the second most common dragon in OU is only 2x weak to ice and has the capability to wall special sweepers just slightly worse than Blissey (and in some cases even better, thanks to its movepool). Plus, it's only sitting two places lower on this team! My goodness...you people scare me sometimes.

Wow... you think latias is even near as common as salamence+flygon+dragonite+altaria?

From the march statistics (sorry, I just don't feel like looking for the april ones):

Latias usage: 70,882
Salamence+flygon+dragonite+altaria usage: 112252+37813+24382+1027= 175,474

I would take the 104,592 extra pokemon that can be OHKO'd over a slight neutral damage advantage that may not even matter. And even for latias, dragon pulse only gets 40 extra power, which isn't all that much, whereas on the pokemon HP ice hits 4x take 100 more power than dragon pulse.

So yeah, between super effective coverage, versatility, and it's ability to still kill the dragons it's intended for, Pulse < HP Ice.

Fix'd.

And sorry for the wall of text. I just couldn't help myself.

Lol we forgive you.

That's not true at all. Scizor has been dominant on Shoddy, and over 50% of them carry CB (from Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics, April). Nearly every team carries a Scizor counter that is able to deal with the SD set.

Not on teams that have two other pokemon with choice items already.

Rotom switches in on the SD, Bullet Punch always fails to OHKO, they OHKO. It's true that he could switch in Heatran to absorb the hit, but it could end up taking 50% from a Thunderbolt or HP Fighting.

Pfft. That's just Rotom. It's not going to be a good matchup for CB scizor anyway.

The point of CB Scizor is that it ALWAYS has the +1 Attack Stage boost.

Fyi SD boost attack 2 levels and doesn't limit your moveset. The point is you switch in scizor on a good matchup so that you pretty much automatically get a free +2 attack boost. And you don't have half of your team restricted to one move by choice items.

It can come in on fragile set-up sweepers and Bullet Punch if it needs to, and most of the time it can hit with a strong U-turn to scout and draw out counters.

Since when does bullet punch hurt set up sweepers? They'll take about 30-40% gladly and set them selves up even more, then pummel your team. And you seem to be convinced that U-turn can only be used on choice sets.

My point was that SD Scizor can't safely set-up until the end of the game when you've gotten rid of or weakened all of their counters, while he NEEDS Scizor as he is very low on physical attacks.

There are plenty of choice banders that can work better than scizor. Plus, getting a good switch in combined with an SD is a heck of a lot better than using choice band. You get more attack and versatility.

timssu already brought up some important points. I'll respond to these directly though because you seem to be attacking my post.

>.> I'm not "attacking" your post, just disagreeing.

1. It forces Steel types to COME out, because very little else wants to switch in on the neutral hit. For Latias to be an effective sweeper, he wants to know all of the pokemon that could potentially wall it on the other team. By baiting out Steel-types, he knows what he has to eliminate or at least what to expect will come in on Latias.

I guess it could bait them but then you're going to have to switch out and give that same information to your opponent. I've never really liked using choice item pokemon as bait.

2. Neutral coverage matters much more because Heatran carries a choice item. Normally on any given pokemon you have attacking types that complement each other. When you're stuck in a single move, you want it to cover as many switches as possible.

Honestly there will be few times when you face an opponent without a steel type to switch in with.

As timssu already brought up, bulky waters are some of the most common Heatran counters -- Dragon Pulse will do some damage to them while HP Ice would be easily walled.

Again, a smart opponent will realize that both dragon pulse and hp ice are possibilities and switch in with a pokemon that resists both. And dragon pulse would probably only do about 15% extra to bulky waters anyway; factor in their leftovers and they really won't care about dragon pulse.

3. Either move will kill Dragons. Point (2) covers the rest of this.

No, dragon pulse gets 2HKOs and HP ice gets OHKOs. Other than that, see what I said to timssu.[/QUOTE]

 

[Pink Reaper]

Wow... you think latias is even near as common as salamence+flygon+dragonite+altaria?

From the march statistics (sorry, I just don't feel like looking for the april ones):

Latias usage: 70,882
Salamence+flygon+dragonite+altaria usage: 112252+37813+24382+1027= 175,474

I would take the 104,592 extra pokemon that can be OHKO'd over a slight neutral damage advantage that may not even matter. And even for latias, dragon pulse only gets 40 extra power, which isn't all that much, whereas on the pokemon HP ice hits 4x take 100 more power than dragon pulse.

You realize he said "Second most common" not "MOAR COMMON THAN EVERY OTHER DRAGON COMBINED BLARGHTLASFJDSLKFJSAOIFJWEKLHES;KFHJ"

and who the **** cares about the pokemon on that list that AREN'T salamence?

 

[KrazyGlue]

You realize he said "Second most common" not "MOAR COMMON THAN EVERY OTHER DRAGON COMBINED BLARGHTLASFJDSLKFJSAOIFJWEKLHES;KFHJ"

I'm just saying it's a useless point because it's not common compared to all the 4x weakness pokemon combined.

and who the **** cares about the pokemon on that list that AREN'T salamence?

Lol

True but there are still plenty of flygon and dragonite users that's won't die from dragon pulse but will die from HP ice.


EDIT: Wait... it's been a week by now...

 

[Circa]

I'm just saying it's a useless point because it's not common compared to all the 4x weakness pokemon combined.




Lol

True but there are still plenty of flygon and dragonite users that's won't die from dragon pulse but will die from HP ice.


EDIT: Wait... it's been a week by now...

I'm quoting this one because it's much smaller. x.x

The whole point to carrying dragon pulse is to counter the counter that will be switched in when you 'try' and revenge kill; not for the Pokemon that they're bringing in to revenge kill the Heatran. And that's what I was saying about why they wouldn't switch in a steel type as an initial counter. No one is going to put out THAT much of a risk to suffer getting hit by either Earth Power or its fire STAB; which a lot of Heatran users will still use despite expecting a counter.

So yeah, dragon pulse is used for countering (or at least getting good damage against) the Heatran counter that they switch in. ScarfTran outspeeds all standard dragon sets (and when I say standard, I mean the all-but-2-to-11%) apart from a Scarfed Flygon, and does enough to guarantee a 2HKO on all of these sets (which means that they will not touch you, thanks to their switching in). And Flygon isn't even common enough as it is, nor is it lethal enough to really ever worry about. And once again, I'll mention bulky waters. The actual reason for dragon pulse is safety. Safety in what you're going to hit, and safety in the amount of damage your hit is going to do. With dragon pulse hitting neutral on everything across the board apart from steel (which we already covered as being the one thing a person won't want to counter with), you basically have the best move you can go with for that security. HP Ice basically won't hurt bulky waters; which, as I said, is Heatran's most reliable (and most seen) counter. From that perspective, HP Ice almost seems to be redundant to throw on the set.

Oh, and to mix the two together, there is one dragon you forgot. Kingdra. HP Ice hits neutral, whereas dragon pulse murders. And Kingdra also has the bulkiness to survive every other move from Heatran (or so I'd think...75 base HP and 95 base SDEF isn't exactly light. I might be wrong though). It's not too commonly seen either, but it is another dragon that HP Ice won't cover as well.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Not on teams that have two other pokemon with choice items already.

There are teams that revolve around choice items. The number of choiced pokemon won't matter as long as they can support each other and deal with common threats.

Pfft. That's just Rotom. It's not going to be a good matchup for CB scizor anyway


Fyi SD boost attack 2 levels and doesn't limit your moveset. The point is you switch in scizor on a good matchup so that you pretty much automatically get a free +2 attack boost. And you don't have half of your team restricted to one move by choice items.

Again, the reason CB Scizor is vastly more popular than SD is because it isn't so straightforward to counter. Scizor is the most common pokemon in OU, and almost every team carries a Scizor counter. CB Scizor comes in on a good match-up, but unlike its SD counterpart, scouts for and wears down its counters with U-turn. Rotom comes in on U-turn, take 12.5% from Stealth Rocks, and another 38-50% from U-turn (even more on Scarfed sets). That sounds a lot better than either being forced out or OHKO'd. Residual damage from Rocks and being able to manipulate the resulting match-up puts you at an equally large advantage, and never at the risk for simply wasting a turn and your Scizor.

There are plenty of choice banders that can work better than scizor. Plus, getting a good switch in combined with an SD is a heck of a lot better than using choice band. You get more attack and versatility.

Scizor is one of the most reliable. There's a reason why it's one of the most commonly used sets in OU.

No, dragon pulse gets 2HKOs and HP ice gets OHKOs. Other than that, see what I said to timssu.

Calculation for Dragon Pulse vs. Salamence: 87.92% - 103.32%. That's with a SpD- nature (which is the most common). With a neutral nature, it does a minimum of 79.15%, which is still a guaranteed OHKO with SR.

Top
2 | Salamence | 135785 | 23.24

High
12 | Latias | 83201 | 14.24
24 | Flygon | 44903 | 7.69
26 | Kingdra | 43755 | 7.49

Low
42 | Dragonite | 25799 | 4.42

Bottom
178 | Altaria | 1050 | 0.18