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Firo's Experimental Smash 64 Ruleset

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
All the players have to do is just remember one number - the number of stocks the winning player has over his opponent. If I'm interpreting the results correctly, TKOs count your number of deaths at the end of the game. I really don't think this is a big problem - this is like the players not agreeing who won games in a set. You are framing this as a much bigger issue than in reality.
I think you are really underestimating this. Numerous times in stock matches I have seen players look at how many stocks they have and be surprised. Same goes for commentators. It happens even when the stocks are there the whole time, it will definitely happen when you take them away. People just lose count sometimes, especially when there are multiple minutes between counts, its human nature. Not sure if its possible to gleam from the post game score the necessary info (might be, hadn't thought of that), but the fact that players can possibly forget or lose track of the score during the match is a big negative.

You are arguing against any form of a timer here. I think we are just approaching the rules with a different set of values. I, personally, do not want 8+ minute games, and would rather see a stally/campy game end rather quickly with one player forced to approach within 4 minutes than have one go on for, in the present case, a potentially unbounded period of time.
I think what is missing from your values is fairness. Time mode is not fair, it gives a lopsided advantage to whoever is in the lead. I think this has been covered in past posts. You want to promote other values over fairness, I think you will find yourself in the minority there as far as tournaments go.

Flipping a coin is luck based, and again is risky - if I choose link vs pika, and the coin flips to dreamland, then oh well. I really have yet to hear a fair way of choosing the first stage, as I believe one doesn't exist, but at least here we are getting closer.
Your version is pre-smash mind game based, which is based at least partially on luck. I don't like either method. Stage striking or having a predetermined starter stage is more fair.

You can argue that this hurts puff (even though puff against samus I'm not too sure about), but the idea is not to make one objective list that stays the same and helps/hurts some characters. If puff is hurt by this, then move her down the list. If some character is too buffed, then move them up. Again, if the goal here is to increase character variety (which is one of my goals, it might not be one of yours), then the ruleset adapts based on thoughts and results and changes over time.
Hey you asked the question I just answered it. Some characters are going to be negatively effected by this because they don't beat all the characters below them. Okay so lets change the tier list based on that... but now some of the matchups are changed because of the tier list shift, so after the next tournament there might be a tier list change, which affects the matchups, so after the next tournament there mgiht be a tier list change... Thus the success of the puff player depends on where in the tier list puff is at the time of the tournament based on what part of the cycle of this perpetual tier list shifting we are currently at, as opposed to where the actual metagame is currently at. That's not right.

Again, if you are not aiming towards the particular goals that I'm shooting for here, then discussing the merits of a ruleset won't go very far. Resolving that would require a much more fundamental discussion about things, which is a different matter entirely.
It sounds like your values are max fun, max character diversity, and max entertainment value, all at the expense of fairness. If you are talking about having some fun friendlies, okay, but that set of values is generally not what a tournament is for. Except a YOLO tournament, which is way more fun than this ruleset anyway :)
 

bloodpeach

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
346
Location
Philadelphia PA
I think what is missing from your values is fairness. Time mode is not fair, it gives a lopsided advantage to whoever is in the lead. I think this has been covered in past posts. You want to promote other values over fairness, I think you will find yourself in the minority there as far as tournaments go.
If a player is winning, by definition, it means they have a lopsided advantage over the other player. In stock the winner can run away, and burden is on the loser to approach through the stalling rule. in time it would literally be no different; the losing player would be forced to approach because if they dont they lose (either by stalling rule dq or by timer).

... I don't understand why youre so convinced everything about this is 'unfair'. hockey, soccer and football all have timers and no one runs around calling those unfair.
And counterpicks are all ready a rule that gives a small advantage to a player who is at a major disadvantage. Firo's ruleset simply officially codifies the tier list as a measure of disadvantage. And its not like the teir list is gonna change after every tournament... And if a cycle somehow actually did exist we could just use the magic of TIEs to keep the metagame constant.

I see where youre coming from, but youre really being overly negative. open your mind. give luv a chance
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
If a player is winning, by definition, it means they have a lopsided advantage over the other player. In stock the winner can run away, and burden is on the loser to approach through the stalling rule. in time it would literally be no different; the losing player would be forced to approach because if they dont they lose (either by stalling rule dq or by timer).

... I don't understand why youre so convinced everything about this is 'unfair'. hockey, soccer and football all have timers and no one runs around calling those unfair.
And counterpicks are all ready a rule that gives a small advantage to a player who is at a major disadvantage. Firo's ruleset simply officially codifies the tier list as a measure of disadvantage. And its not like the tier list is gonna change after every tournament... And if a cycle somehow actually did exist we could just use the magic of TIEs to keep the metagame constant.

I see where youre coming from, but youre really being overly negative. open your mind. give luv a chance
The rule for stock in apex on stalling was:

"Extreme stalling is disallowed. Any reported case of such will result in a warning, followed by automatic forfeit of the match as per the discretion of the TO. If there is no movement from either player, the losing player is considered to be stalling."

The idea that the loser must approach in stock is a myth. The loser must simply move and not stall. Extreme stalling on EITHER side is disallowed in stock, so if a winning pikachu were to do nothing but up-b away for a whole match, by rule he would actually be warned and then forfeit the match if he continued. Time makes it so the loser must actually approach, and if your opponent knows you must approach it makes it very easy on him to counter that approach. Timed matches would create a snowball effect where getting a lead gives you a better chance of getting more of a lead.

Basketball has a timer. Used to also not have a shot clock. Then someone broke the game by holding the ball for a whole professional game and winning like 20-16 or something. Then they added a shot clock to fix the game because they realized the ability to stall indefinitely is dumb. Sports like football, hockey, and soccer are impossible to stall indefinitely in, due to only have 4 downs in football, hockey being a cluster**** in general, and soccer having too many men on the playing field. Basketball is much easier. Smash I daresay would be even easier depending on the matchup. Some games are made to make stalling impossible. Ssb is not one of those games.

Btw I hate counterpicks, double blinds, pretty much anything where players don't mutually agree to a matchup for pretty much the same reason.
 

EggSelent

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
189
The rule for stock in apex on stalling was:

"Extreme stalling is disallowed. Any reported case of such will result in a warning, followed by automatic forfeit of the match as per the discretion of the TO. If there is no movement from either player, the losing player is considered to be stalling."

The idea that the loser must approach in stock is a myth. The loser must simply move and not stall. Extreme stalling on EITHER side is disallowed in stock, so if a winning pikachu were to do nothing but up-b away for a whole match, by rule he would actually be warned and then forfeit the match if he continued. Time makes it so the loser must actually approach, and if your opponent knows you must approach it makes it very easy on him to counter that approach. Timed matches would create a snowball effect where getting a lead gives you a better chance of getting more of a lead.

Basketball has a timer. Used to also not have a shot clock. Then someone broke the game by holding the ball for a whole professional game and winning like 20-16 or something. Then they added a shot clock to fix the game because they realized the ability to stall indefinitely is dumb. Sports like football, hockey, and soccer are impossible to stall indefinitely in, due to only have 4 downs in football, hockey being a cluster**** in general, and soccer having too many men on the playing field. Basketball is much easier. Smash I daresay would be even easier depending on the matchup. Some games are made to make stalling impossible. Ssb is not one of those games.

Btw I hate counterpicks, double blinds, pretty much anything where players don't mutually agree to a matchup for pretty much the same reason.
Reminds me of VANILLAnova AKA Villanova and their 1985 victory. I'm within miles from campus, but have no affiliation.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1031532/5/index.htm
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,740
Location
Chicago
or you stop playing the game
Why?

I mean, I'm not a ness main, but I for one am not afraid of being camped out on DL. I'm pretty confident that getting in there and mixing it up is my optimal strategy on every legal stage in every one of the 48 matchups that I can play competitively, and I don't know of any tactic that would turn stalling into an advantage. I also don't really see how that could change in the foreseeable future.
 
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