Finger speed/linking attacks? =/

[TrueRedemption]

Hey all, if you even bother to read this after seeing my post count i'll go ahead and throw it out there, i'm relatively noob. I know of the technical stuff, practice shffl/wavedash/teching etc and have a limited but consistant use of these things in matches. Have yet to be to a competitive smash anything, little busy and so bad that i'm not looking too hard, not to mention only thing i have at college is a bike so limited in distance. Anyway, on to what i'd love some insight about:

I often am just too slow it seems. I'll do a bthrow but won't be able to turn and smash or whatever in time. i'll place dodge but can't seem to do anything in time to punish a miss. i'll start a combo, fair or chain grab to utilt, a number of things, but then it seems i stop doing things, not because my fingers stop, but something goes wrong. My normal and better opponent my fox playing roommate never has these problems, and as you can see i'm struggling to describe it, but am getting very frustrated by it. I know what i want to do. I know what would work. I see the opportunities, the holes, the missed tech or bad position, but 4 outa 5 times fail to capitalize on it. Is this normal with casual players starting to play more competitively? What can i do, or is it just a light bulb moment kinda thing when suddenly i won't have this problem. Am i trying to do things in lag and thats messing up the timing? I really am at a loss, and just hopeful theres a good solution waiting to be shared on this thread. Thanks for the help

 

[TidusAni]

that happens to me and my friends when we started out, but you get alot better the more you play, just try and get in those situations and keep doing them over and over, its the best way

 

[Dark Sonic]

The back throw has a lot of ending lag so that's your problem there. It seems that you just haven't memorized the ending lag of Marth's movements yet. The spot dodge lasts to long for you to punish a fast attack like a jab or tilt (and even a few smashes). When you were chaining aerials and suddenly stopped it's probably because you missed an L-cancel and wasn't expecting the lag. On some aerials it's hard to even notice that you missed the L-cancel at first, but your combo still stops even if you don't see why. If you see the openings and opportunities and capitalizing on them is your only problem then you just need to develop more tech skill. The technical aspects like L-canceling, spacing, and techning have to become reflexes rather than chores so you can focus on your opponent to find your oppenings.

 

[ArcNatural]

Marth is much more of a flowing character than a fast one. Unlike Fox where you can just l-cancel and gogogo, with Marth some of his aerials require a few milliseconds of waiting before dashing or attacking (such as the bair or dair). L-canceling doesn't remove all the lag, only half of it. So you need to learn when you can or can not move. And try not to get into the habit of fast falling and L-canceling at the same time. It's a hard habit to break and ruins a lot of full jump combos since Marth doesn't fall as fast as some characters. Make sure you hit L/R/Z at the right times, not as a button sequence.

 

[~Tac~]

Hey all, if you even bother to read this after seeing my post count i'll go ahead and throw it out there, i'm relatively noob. I know of the technical stuff, practice shffl/wavedash/teching etc and have a limited but consistant use of these things in matches. Have yet to be to a competitive smash anything, little busy and so bad that i'm not looking too hard, not to mention only thing i have at college is a bike so limited in distance. Anyway, on to what i'd love some insight about:

I often am just too slow it seems. I'll do a bthrow but won't be able to turn and smash or whatever in time. i'll place dodge but can't seem to do anything in time to punish a miss. i'll start a combo, fair or chain grab to utilt, a number of things, but then it seems i stop doing things, not because my fingers stop, but something goes wrong. My normal and better opponent my fox playing roommate never has these problems, and as you can see i'm struggling to describe it, but am getting very frustrated by it. I know what i want to do. I know what would work. I see the opportunities, the holes, the missed tech or bad position, but 4 outa 5 times fail to capitalize on it. Is this normal with casual players starting to play more competitively? What can i do, or is it just a light bulb moment kinda thing when suddenly i won't have this problem. Am i trying to do things in lag and thats messing up the timing? I really am at a loss, and just hopeful theres a good solution waiting to be shared on this thread. Thanks for the help

that happens to me and my friends when we started out, but you get alot better the more you play, just try and get in those situations and keep doing them over and over, its the best way

Happens alot to new or inexperienced Marths. One of the main keys to a quick Marth, is fast falling every single jump or aerial. Marth's jump as you can see, slows at the peak, fast falling takes about a 1/2 second from your airtime, which makes a huge difference in matches where opponents use adv. moves. Another factor to your combo-ing, is jump-cancel grabbing. I admit I have a few problems with combos, but JCing is a HUGE help. Search around a bit. One more tid-bit is proper space. If you hit your opponent with a bad spot of your sword, your foe might fly at a bad angle, thus a quick recovery or you missing a hit and leaving yourself open. Just a few thoughts, not saying you don't or can't do those.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

I didn't read most of this, but did someone say back throw? what the heck? Marth has three throws: fthrow, uthrow, and dthrow.

Keep practicing. You can learn to beat everyone from your college without even going to a competitive smash event.

 

[spoonyd]

I myself am learning Marth too. Everyone is right on with their advice. Once things like Lcanceling and spacing are in your system, you can concentrate on actually fighting cause the tech stuff will just be automatic.

As for missing combos, someone mentioned missed Lcancels. On a stage with platforms like Battlefield you really need to nail your Lcancels so you can follow well with your fairs and Ken combo eventually if you're to that level.

Bout the only time I use bthrow is to get them back off the edge of the stage. Otherwise there are just better directions to throw to continue into a combo.

I don't usually fastfall SH fairs cause you eventually wanna learn SHDfairs. Yeah it's a tough technique but sure seems worth it. Even you can't do that, doing SHFair DJ into another fair is really good for comboing too. Mixing it up with the SHFFL nair is good to keep them off balance and has a longer lasting hitbox.

 

[FrostByte]

SHDF is a lot more risky and more predictable than a sh fair. With one sh fair, you have the whole of your short hop animation to choose when you want to use your attack. With SHDF however, you're attacking in the same pattern the whole time and can be punished during the lag of the first fair.

 

[spoonyd]

SHDF is a lot more risky and more predictable than a sh fair. With one sh fair, you have the whole of your short hop animation to choose when you want to use your attack. With SHDF however, you're attacking in the same pattern the whole time and can be punished during the lag of the first fair.

I definitely agree with you. I just figure it's good to have everything at your disposal. Then you can just pick whatever tool fits the situation.

 

[demonsbane105]

Like someone mentioned, I think you're just mistaking the lag time a little and tapping a little too soon. Experience is really the main solution I can think of. I use to have the same problem. I would always land after an aerial combo and try to jump a little too soon. Just keep playing and get a feel of Marth's moveset and lagtime.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Wow all, thanks much for the advice/support. I'm just starting the shdf, its pretty inconsistent, but from repeatedly doing it in training mode i understand your point frost. Arcnatural you pretty much nailed me, a fox player the only real thing i have to look up to thats close to my level (i dream of the videos i watch, someday...) i'm always go go more more trying to have no down time. dunno why i was thinking bthrow was useful, at least now i don't feel dumb for not being able to use it much, i just thought i was making the mistake and the lag was not that bad. Plenty to work on already, thanks all

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

Wow all, thanks much for the advice/support. I'm just starting the shdf, its pretty inconsistent, but from repeatedly doing it in training mode i understand your point frost. Arcnatural you pretty much nailed me, a fox player the only real thing i have to look up to thats close to my level (i dream of the videos i watch, someday...) i'm always go go more more trying to have no down time. dunno why i was thinking bthrow was useful, at least now i don't feel dumb for not being able to use it much, i just thought i was making the mistake and the lag was not that bad. Plenty to work on already, thanks all

Don't practice in training mode. Plug in a 2nd controller and have a sandbag human there. The reason is you can't use the c-stick in training mode, and it's an integral part of any good player's game. That adds another point: for now, use the C-stick for all aerials and smash attacks.

 

[spoonyd]

Don't practice in training mode. Plug in a 2nd controller and have a sandbag human there. The reason is you can't use the c-stick in training mode, and it's an integral part of any good player's game. That adds another point: for now, use the C-stick for all aerials and smash attacks.

Question for UMBC on this. Is it really necessary to use c-stick for all aerials? I usually just use it for uair and dairs to allow for DI. Does it matter that much for fair and bairs? Just wondering.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Question for UMBC on this. Is it really necessary to use c-stick for all aerials? I usually just use it for uair and dairs to allow for DI. Does it matter that much for fair and bairs? Just wondering.

It helps with your spacing on the Fairs and Bairs because you can literally be moving in the other direction so you can tip them. Using the C-stick for aerials is important so that you can space your aerials and still DI any way you want.

 

[spoonyd]

Thank you for the quick answer. Definitely gonna work on that and it seems pretty necessary for Marth like you said. I'm practically relearning Smash even though I've played it for years so I appreciate all the help.

 

[TrueRedemption]

uh oh =/ cstick it all? sonic wave your point makes great sense, but i use little/no cstick now, honestly i don't hold the controller that'll allow me to cstick adeptly right now, how should i be holding it, and how long is it gonna take till that seems natural 0,o everything i tried in the past 10 minutes felt clumsy and akward, too many fingers they get in the way/slow me down, or i'm reaching hoping to do the right thing but more importantly loosing time moving a finger too far. I've heard about a claw hold before, and believe i saw a thread on how each player holds the controller/presses buttons, so i'll be searching next, any help/practice/idea on time it'll take to be natural would be appreciated though, thanks again for so much...


Edit: alright, searched, and found overall at least it seems that i'm not holding it wrong or anything, people just move faster/more assured than i do. I just don't see shdfair when you have to move your thumb that far pretty accurately... I'll be working on it unless someone says something different here

Edit2: i sit corrected, not only has using the cstick taught me a lot of the finer points of marths cooldown lags, by being able to do X then find immediately how soon after i can cstick smash, but i also can now do shdfair to the left much more consistantly. problem being going right, or even having the proper timing on a bair if i'm facing left. i can't jump, move the thumb past the cstick and drag it back accurately/quickly enough, if its fast enough its a toss up as to if its in fact a fair or dair, i tend to drag it further down when rushing, if i do it consistantly i'm late/hesitant. Its not like shdfiar is my bread and butter or anything, but the way i'm relearning everything much more intense to go from casual to pro, i'd like to know i can physically do it all, and work on putting it all together second.

A lot there, sorry, it was my progress through the night, maybe i'm spamming but i figure hopefully maybe theres more people like me who would benefit =/ thanks again everyone, i've got a lot to master now before moving on, even using the tip of my thumb on X makes short hopping etc much different than the way i used to use my thumb on Y to jump. If anyones ever in Athens and wants to play/see the town, lemme know

 

[spoonyd]

I learned how to short hop the same way you do actually and it seems to work fine. If you wanna work on your combos and using the c stick, just go fight a level 3 computer in vs mode for a while. They DI/tech every so often but are definitely good combo/c stick dummies. It's taken me about a week of playing a lil each day to get more accustomed to the c stick. As for SHDF, I just use the A for that but that's me. It's a shorter distance from the X button so I stuck with that.

Anything worth being good at is worth practicing for and it's definitely worth it once you start to see your game improve. Nothing like pulling off a Ken combo after 3 fairs for the first time.

 

[Dark Sonic]

It just takes a little practice to use the c-stick. I hold the controller the normal way and use X to jump just like you started doing. I know Fox players that waveshine by wavedashing with the X button so I just thought SHDF with the c-stick wouldn't be that hard. It took about a day to get it going left and a few more days of practicing to get it going to the right. Getting it to feel natural came shortly after learning to do it effectively in both directions. Now the only thing I use the A button for is tilts and jabs since I started using the Z button to charge smashes.

 

[DuKe™]

i still have this problem but not as much as I used to, im pretty sure this thing goes away with experience the fact that you see what you should is good but slowly you will just get it keep playing, and then one day you will wake up and like throwing up 0 to death combos and crap you just have to keep playing better competition