• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Final Smash Copies?

test-object

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
44
Location
Antwerp
EDIT: FOR REVISED LIST, SEE THE TOP OF PAGE 3!!!

I'm a tad annoyed by the Final Smashes some characters got and I'll tell you why: (14) 12 Final Smashes are clones. Didn't Sakurai want to get rid of clone(characters)? They might not be EXACTLY the same, but some are simply more powerful then others, which isn't balanced.

I summed some up:
Mario = Samus = Pokémon Trainer
Sonic = Pikachu
King Dedede = Pit
Wario = Zamus
Zelda = Sheik (okay, I'm not going to use this one as an argument)
Ike = Meta Knight = Link


I'm not saying Sakurai is doing a bad job (I adore the Snake FS) but, come on...

Discuss...
Please refrain from trolling, flaming or any dumb, ridiculous comment you think is witty.
 

Linkeatspie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
83
Location
Illinois
Don't forget Lucas=Ice Climbers.

I don't think it's that much of a problem; I mean look at Snake's or Peach's final smashes. They're very unique. And they all still look cool anyway ;).
 

LeuMasT

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
168
There really are only so many ways to do it, though. They all vary in their own way and implementation, which is all that really needs to be, even if there are similar formats.
 

Baka_Shade

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
160
Don't forget Lucas=Ice Climbers.
Er, because they both deal damage from a direction that isn't sideways?

I'll grant you Mario/Samus/Trainer, Sonic/Pikachu, and I guess Ike/Meta Knight (though that's reaching), but the fact that ZSS and Wario both transform is kind of irrelevant to how they actually play (you would have been better off saying Bowser/Wario, and that's still wrong). Final smashes certainly do fall into a few categories, but to say that they're clones is willfully disregarding the nuances.
 

Mario77

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
186
... If you notice, every final smash is different, sure you can break them into catagories, but Marios final smash is WAY different than Samus's. Samus turns her into a new freakin character basicly! Mario's doesnt do that!

STOP COMPLAINING DANG IT, You can't expect every single Final Smash to be as awkward as Snakes! Mario and Samus final smash are perfect, no need to change them.
 

The Adder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
114
I'm a tad annoyed by the Final Smashes some characters got and I'll tell you why: (14) 12 Final Smashes are clones. Didn't Sakurai want to get rid of clone(characters)? They might not be EXACTLY the same, but some are simply more powerful then others, which isn't balanced.

I summed some up:
Mario = Samus = Pokémon Trainer
Sonic = Pikachu
King Dedede = Pit
Wario = Zamus
Zelda = Sheik (okay, I'm not going to use this one as an argument)
Ike = Meta Knight = Link


I'm not saying Sakurai is doing a bad job (I adore the Snake FS) but, come on...

Discuss...
Please refrain from trolling, flaming or any dumb, ridiculous comment you think is witty.
Except the fact that all of those moves function totally differently from the ones you compared them to (except maybe Zelda = Sheik), you're 100% correct.
 

blerb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
365
Location
Nowhere, Ontario
show me someone who cares. it's not necessarily easy to come up with ideas, you know. how about this:

why don't you fly over to Japan and find Sora Ltd, and tell them what they should do for the game, down to every detail? because they care about our opinions so much. :(
 

Lone Spectator

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
109
Fox = Bowser
Just becaus they're both transformations they're clones?

And there is no such thing as a clone FS. specially since:

Samus: Transforms her into ZSS; Also, it starts out small and widens it's hitbox. Has huge knockback.
Mario: Pushes your opponent back when it's hit.
PT: Doesn't push your opponent back(see commercial), is more useful to deal damage.

Ike: He "throws" his opponents up, slashes them and the pummels them downwards.
Meta Knight: He throws his cape and delivers an OHKO(based on demos).
Link: Slashes the oppnent, doesn't need to be as precise as Ike's or Meta Knight's and sends them fkying upward. Can be used as recovry, according to Whobby reports.

Sonic: He just flys around and he can be avoided by attacking him when he touches you.
Pikachu: Harder too control, you can press A to send a shockwave.

ZSS: She just gets bac with her Power Suit, as a normal character.
Wario: He ACTUALLY powers-up. Hs attacks become stronger and he gets knew abilitys like floating.

Dedede: I need to see this one to know.
 

test-object

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
44
Location
Antwerp
but the fact that ZSS and Wario both transform is kind of irrelevant to how they actually play (you would have been better off saying Bowser/Wario, and that's still wrong). Final smashes certainly do fall into a few categories, but to say that they're clones is willfully disregarding the nuances.
Though I do understand your Wario =/= Zamus thoughts, Final Smashes shouldn't just have nuances, they should be completely seperate from each other. I'm afraid this would make Final Smashes repetetive.

(PS: That's why I think all Final Smashes should take effort from the player, but that's off-topic ^^)

Except the fact that all of those moves function totally differently from the ones you compared them to (except maybe Zelda = Sheik), you're 100% correct.
And these are the dumb, witty remarks I asked not to post, thanks.
 

JTH

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
30
Location
Massachusetts
Dedede: I need to see this one to know.[/QUOTE said:
In a way Dedede is similar, but they are none the less different attacks..

Dedede's FS is he shoots out wobledee's(I spelled that wrong) and they attack your opponents.
 

DinnerSonic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Messages
46
Every final smash seems to go into a kind of category. This may prove unoriginality, or just go along with things like how Ike and Kirby share similar Up+B styles and Peach and Ike share rather similar counters. Note this is just with what info I know, and I don't want to come off as all knowing compared to the pros that may be here and have played it at demos.

Forward Blast: Mario, Samus, and Pokemon Trainer all use a general forward blast. Mario's covers a widening area, Samus apparently takes a lot of damage and forces a character swap, Pokemon Trainer uses three weaker attacks of differing range that, when close, will take a large amount of damage. Zelda's Light Arrow may count as a strong piercing very thin Forward Blast.

Flying Transformation: Sonic, Pikachu, Diddy Kong and Yoshi transform into immortal flying death machines. Sonic flies at hyper speeds and knocks around characters, but seems rather hard to aim with or stop. Pikachu seems a bit slower and perhaps stronger, seemingly not knocking around if you land on a character, but probably is not as good at spreading damage everywhere. He eventually slows to a stop, which, if it slows near a character, will seemingly doom the victim no matter what. Yoshi has free flight and immortality like the other two, but focuses more on a two move attack set of constant flames or strong dodgable fireballs. Diddy gets the ability to fly above the crowd and shoot highly explosive peanuts, but also risks giving the enemy a healing item should he miss and they notice. Snake may or may not count here, as he is unable to be damaged, is flying, and can pelt his foes to his choosing with possibility for error.

Super Transformation: Bowser, Wario and Fox temporarily transform into a super strong form that is still generally stuck by the laws of gravity. Bowser and possibly Wario both can take damage during these forms. Bowser becomes an unflinchable presumably unthrowable death machine, who's size leads to distance attacks still racking up damage as an easy target, but also means no character is really safe. Wario stays generally the same, with an enhanced moveset, with apparent special properties like hovering/flight and the like, and super strong Special moves. Fox gets into a deadly tank who's nearly/guranteed one hit KO is tough to hit, but is undamagable, and includes (infinite?) hovering and rolling capabilities.

Assisting Attack: Lucas and Pit summon a supply of deadly but dodgable projectiles, while still being able to attack, allowing things like grabbing your enemy to make an easy target. However they are also assumedly able to get KOed by those who manage to evade the enemies(and any general bad luck on the user)... Lucas summons a storm of meteors, which rises in count till probably being near undodgable. Pit summons a one at a time character aiming Centurion army that I believe is decently fast and dangerous, especially in a one on one one battle where you can grab a character just long enough to get hit. Dedede's Final Smash also is similar to these, though from what I can see, the speedy Waddle Dees sweep characters off more then they do lethal damage, the Gordos however, probably do do good damage.

Focused Strong Attack: Ike, Link and Meta Knight lock on to a character/s and deliver a fierce attack. Ike carries the hit opponent up, does a sweet combo, then slams them down with an explosion, also damaging others that may get in the way. Link focuses on one character and does massive damage, though I'm unsure if his final hit hurts any who may also walk in the way. Meta Knight does a single fierce strike on any characters hit by his somewhat short range cape swipe, but may also hit more then one.

All Encompasing Attack: Kirby, Olimar and Peach do an attack that affects everyone no matter where they are(in Peach's case, they have to be on the ground I believe). Kirby gathers up all the characters, does damage, then launches them off along with items that can be used by both him and any survivors. Olimar flies away as the remaining characters take damage, though I'm not sure how much, or if it changes depending on character count or if that simply meant "50 percent on one person vs 50 percent on three" or the like. He then has the chance to deliver a possibly finishing blow with his ship. Peach simply puts everyone on the ground to sleep from what I can tell, with a longer sleeping spell happening to those closer to her. She then gets the oppritunity to charge an attack, heal up, go for other items, or let the sleeping foes fall off a moving stage.

OTHER: Zero Suit Samus returns to her stronger but less agile Power Suit, apparently also damaging those close to her when it reforms. Does this do a lot of damage, or is the Zero Suit considered a punishment in a way, for those who don't know how to take advantage?

This is my analysis of the Final Smashes. Most Final Smashes are, in some form, possible to botch up and miss, even those who don't may leave the players not just alive, but able to take advantage, be it stealing items intended for the user, or using one enemy's Final Smash to take out someone else, claiming the KO for themselves. As someone posted above, there are also other nuances that can serve to spread similar ones apart for a more skilled player.

edit: ... I knew I forgot someone, I forgot the Ice Climbers! They are pretty weird, they seem to do damage somewhat, but I don't know if the Iceburg is constant damage or just occasional, they can freeze the enemy with it, and it causes the entire stage to become strange and slippery to everyone but them.
 

Voyager

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
226
Bad thread is bad.

Lucas = Ice Climbers and Fox = Bowser made me lol especially.
 

Tank McCannon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
281
Location
Canfield OH
The OP is just saying that a lot of the Final Smashes are similar, not EXACT copies.

I said Fox = Bowser because they both turn into huge things that dominate the level and can't be knocked away. Yes, no two Final Smashes are the exact same, but a lot are pretty similar with the same ideas behind them. I'm really not complaining, but a little more originality wouldn't hurt either.
 

Saor Gael

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
151
This is like saying half the characters are clones because they have punches as their basic moves.

Really, there's just a FINITE number of ways they can do a Final Smash.

What were you expecting? Mario to run over everyone with a train?

Really, before you complain, try doing better. Come up with 'unique' Final Smashes for every character.
 

Brawler1432

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
1,054
Ike = Meta Knight = Link
This is wrong, they are definatly all very different from each other, also the Pit/Dedede FSs are different, next you know your gonna put Lucus in there.
 

Outlander

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
15
Well MetaKnight and Link are similar, but are not clone abilities. Link and Meta Knight both trap their enemies within their final smashes. And from what i can ascertain you cannot dodge them, Metaknight's you can dodge, unless you under the cape then your finished, but you get what i mean.

Meta Knight's and Ike are similar because theres a chance to grab multiple or just single enemies.

But really, they differ from each other in key ways and I am not complainging, all the FS are very cool.

Yoshi's is similar to Wario, aswell as Diddykong to some extend.

Sonic and Pikachu definately have similar abilities. But it fits with their characters, nice to see that little rodent with some power for once, I will let you figure out which one I am refering to, lol.

Yeah Pokemon Trainer, Mario and Samus all shoot big beam weapons, But Samus loses her armour....drool. Huh...wha?...

King Dedede and Pit are similar.

I don't really think the others connect with each other like the previous ones i mention do. I guess Fox and Bowser are similar, but the landmaster tank is stationary and just flips directions, Giga bowser moves around.

All in all I think we can agree Olimar has the coolest FS, lol. :D
 

Shadow312

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 4, 2007
Messages
268
NNID
shadzcat
Betcha Jigglypuff will have a similar one to Peach.....
 

The Adder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
114
And these are the dumb, witty remarks I asked not to post, thanks.
It's not dumb when it's true. The attacks look similar (not even the same just similar) and function totally differently. So basically what you asked is that no one point out why you are wrong.
 

maxpower1227

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
1,443
Mario = Samus = Pokémon Trainer
Sonic = Pikachu
King Dedede = Pit
Wario = Zamus
Zelda = Sheik (okay, I'm not going to use this one as an argument)
Ike = Meta Knight = Link
You forgot Yoshi = Diddy, and King DeDeDe (sort of) = Pit = Lucas

However....

Wario != Zamus
Ike != MetaKnight != Link

Wario = unique
Zamus = unique
Peach = unique
Bowser = unique
Fox = unique (become a large vehicle with distinct, though limited controls)
Donkey Kong = unique (interactive, rewards precision)
Snake = unique (interactive, removes char. from the plane of battle)
Olimar = unique (removes char. from plane of battle, automated thereafter)
Ice Climbers = unique (fundamentally changes terrain to benefit char.)
Kirby = unique (generates items)

I'm very impressed overall with the quality and diversity of the final smashes. This thread is fail.
 

Rajun Cajun

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
13
I agree with most of the posts on here so far. There really do seem to be broad FS categories, but I wouldn't use the word clone.

I do want to ask something about Meta. Does anyone escape damage if one person gets hit by the cape? Do only near-by characters get hit by the slashes or is it everyone? The update says if there are other characters "besides" the caped one, not "beside" the caped one, then they get hit.

Either way I think this multiple person effect seperates him from Link pretty effectively.

This, on the other hand, brings me to a point I do want to make about the Finals. Some categories seem way more effective than others. Samus's seems to be the most devastating I've seen so far since while it only deals damage in the 40%s it's still an instant kill even from 0%. On the other hand, while Link's LOOKS amazing there's a video where he nails Ike with it at 0% and doesn't even approach a 1 hit KO. In fact Ike seems to recover instantly upon being released from the attack and easily maneuvers back onto the stage.

I do not know if some characters are meant to be stronger 1 on 1 and others better in free for all or what, but it seems to me that a limited chance to hit one character with your FS should probably be a little more devastating than a pretty good chance to hit 3 characters with your final smash.

Clone-wise I think the best case is for mario/samus/PT (ignoring zerosuit) and I must admit I am a LITTLE disappointed in the similarities mostly because I think mario can do better than a giant fire-blast which seems to have little precedent in other mario games.
 

Rajun Cajun

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
13
I agree with most of the posts on here so far. There really do seem to be broad FS categories, but I wouldn't use the word clone.

I do want to ask something about Meta. Does anyone escape damage if one person gets hit by the cape? Do only near-by characters get hit by the slashes or is it everyone? The update says if there are other characters "besides" the caped one, not "beside" the caped one, then they get hit.

Either way I think this multiple person effect seperates him from Link pretty effectively.

This, on the other hand, brings me to a point I do want to make about the Finals. Some categories seem way more effective than others. Samus's seems to be the most devastating I've seen so far since while it only deals damage in the 40%s it's still an instant kill even from 0%. On the other hand, while Link's LOOKS amazing there's a video where he nails Ike with it at 0% and doesn't even approach a 1 hit KO. In fact Ike seems to recover instantly upon being released from the attack and easily maneuvers back onto the stage.

I do not know if some characters are meant to be stronger 1 on 1 and others better in free for all or what, but it seems to me that a limited chance to hit one character with your FS should probably be a little more devastating than a pretty good chance to hit 3 characters with your final smash.

Clone-wise I think the best case is for mario/samus/PT (ignoring zerosuit) and I must admit I am a LITTLE disappointed in the similarities mostly because I think mario can do better than a giant fire-blast which seems to have little precedent in other mario games.
 

Rajun Cajun

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
13
crap... I accidentally posted the same thing twice and I can't get rid of it... Though I guess I did forget to mention that I think since (I assume) none of Dedede's minions can fly heis also sufficiently distinct from Pit's buddies.
 

test-object

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
44
Location
Antwerp
Revised list of Final Smash clones.
If it's marked like THIS, it's not a complete clone, but has lots of resemblences.
For those of you who wish to see the Final Smashes, go check this video!
THANKS TO DINERSONIC for the categories!

Forward Blast:
Mario = Samus
Zelda/Sheik = Pokémon Trainer = Captain Falcon

Flying Transformation:
Yoshi = Diddy Kong
Pikachu = Sonic

Super Transformation:
Bowser = Ganondorf = Game & Watch
Falco = Fox = Wolf
Jigglypuff
Wario
Zero Suit Samus

Assisting Attack:
King Dedede = Pit

Focused Strong Attack:
Link = Toon Link = Ike = Marth
< Marths FS is so cheesy, it's awesome.
Meta Knight
R.O.B.

All Encompasing Attack:
Ness = Lucas
Ice Climbers
< Worst Final Smash idea EVER.
Kirby
Peach
Pikmin & Olimar

Aura Attacks:
Luigi
Donkey Kong

Other:
Snake
< Most epic Final Smash idea EVER.
Lucario
 

Quab

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
20
fox/falcos arent copies i dont think foxs can fly but his lasers are better
 

Chaosblade77

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,958
Ganondorf is more like Marth, he would go under Focused Strong Attack. He simply charges forward after transforming then changes back. You don't have control over the character.

I say Marth because they are basically both "lunge, kill, end"
 

captainfalconmute

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
513
the only one that im really REALLY disappointed with is sonic - pikachu

sonics final smash is just so brilliant, its by far my favourite in the game, but it would have been so much better had it been unique. why on earth did Sakurai give pikachu a complete copy of sonics final smash? has pikachu ever even used a move called volt tackle ever before? i think its a real shame, not just this example, but all the final smash copies.

i really think Sakurai couldnt be bothered with some aspects of this game, no matter how much of a good job he has done of most of it.
 

Liquid-Gold

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
27
Location
Illinooooooiiiiiiis!
I find it odd that the TC complained about unique final smashes being too similar (Wario=Zamus? lolwut?), but didn't complain about the one's that actually are copied from eachother. PK Starstorm, Triforce slash, or (everyone's favorite) TRIPLE-LANDMASTER, any one?
 

test-object

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
44
Location
Antwerp
I find it odd that the TC complained about unique final smashes being too similar (Wario=Zamus? lolwut?), but didn't complain about the one's that actually are copied from eachother. PK Starstorm, Triforce slash, or (everyone's favorite) TRIPLE-LANDMASTER, any one?
Look at the top of page 3. There's the newer list.
 

mogwaimon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 29, 2008
Messages
160
In Marvel vs Capcom 2, is Ryu's Shinkuu Hadouken a clone of Cable's Hyper Viper Beam simply because both are beam attacks? Is Ken's flaming shoryuken super a clone of Sakura's uppercut super? No, they each have different properties, animations, and characters. Just because something has a similar idea doesn't mean the Final Smash is a clone. Although...two Triforce Slashes, three Landmasters, and two PK Starstorms...those are the same moves, IMO, but I mean...suggesting that Warioman is the same as Giga Bowser is just ludicrous, or suggesting that Ike's Great Aether is the same as the Triforce Slash..

So many people are quick to call clone that they forget what a clone actually is o.o
 

Best101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
983
Location
Atlanta, GA
I'm not trolling or flaming, but I'm just handing you the truth here.

Wario is not the same as Zamus.
Wario puts on a Superman outfit, has super strength, and you fly around pounding your opponents. Zamus just transforms back into Samus but sucks in any nearby opponents and dealing massive damage

Ike's is nothing like MetaKnight's or Link.
Ike is a super death combo in the air with flames and stuff. MetaKnight is just a one-hit move that turns the whole screen Dark. Link is using the Triforce to combo his opponent and he finishes his opponent with a stab. Just because they use swords doesn't make them the same Final Smash

With the other comparisions you made I can see some similarities but not enough to complain about. Release they aren't Fox, Falco, and Wolf clones (Landmastah! :laugh:)
 
Top Bottom