Final Destination Forms: How Will We Deal With Them?

[TimeSmash]

Hi all,

After some discussion in @WritersBlah 's thread "Stage Legality Speculations," (http://smashboards.com/threads/stage-legality-speculations.353338/#post-16659634) I decided it's time to talk about the existence of multiple Final Destinations, existing as the Final Destination Forms for every stage. Some clear cut ideas like simply banning all the forms have been discussed, or grouping super similar forms together and counting them as one stage. But I figure this is an argument we can have sooner rather than later, although this argument right now is still mostly based on speculation.

For arguments, here's some ideas to get you started:

• Will all FD forms be exactly the same? Will the blast zones be alike? Will stage hazards still be present? If so, how bad is the hazard in question?
• The benefit/cons of reducing the size of legal FD forms, if you want any of them legal
• Should a rule like the actual Final Destination counts as all Final Destinations be announced
• Any tentative rule titles you are thinking of about this topic are appreciated, so we can use them for future referenced and to keep things clear in this discussion
  
  

Anything else I might need to add will go in the OP. I'm reserving another post for space just in case this argument gets "k-razzy."

 

[TimeSmash]

Lalalala look at this nice reserved space ♫

 

[Road Death Wheel]

TBH i think the quetion is do we need other stages other than FD
If the developer make a solid balance to all characters performance on FD are other stages needed?
Counter characters can exist. But if counter stages are gone i think thats for the better since it was quite messy.

 

[guedes the brawler]

TBH i think the quetion is do we need other stages other than FD
If the developer make a solid balance to all characters performance on FD are other stages needed?
Counter characters can exist. But if counter stages are gone i think thats for the better since it was quite messy.

lol

anyways, i think we can ban versions with weird terrain that could make stage spiking too easy (Mario galaxy seems to work like that), those whose lower parts can hinder recoveries (think of Brawl's FD and the weird edges down there), maybe those that help recoveries too (anything that has walls instead of being a floating platform)

 

[TimeSmash]

TBH i think the quetion is do we need other stages other than FD
If the developer make a solid balance to all characters performance on FD are other stages needed?
Counter characters can exist. But if counter stages are gone i think thats for the better since it was quite messy.

See I think we do, because platforms alone change gameplay. And the fact that some characters function better in a more dynamic change, that potentially changes or just has slopes or other non-continous and/or non-flat terrain. My question is more about the fact we're about to have ten million stages that are the opposite of that, and I'm in favor of cutting FD forms of stages down quite a lot. If they all play exactly the same, then I'm definitely in favor. As with all speculative arguments everything is in preparation for the game and not SUPER factual, but talking about stuff like this now will help us out in the long run when the chaos of the game being released comes haha. I definitely agree with you that counters are messy, but they do help a lot of players and characters excel, and add to variability of the metagame itself.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't think FD will be, or should be, all that much of a hassle.

For starter stages just use default FD only. It makes it much easier.

For CP have all the variants, default included, fall as one stage for stage banning. But if the stage gets CP'd then ther person who CP'd it gets to pick their FD of choice.

Quite simple in all honesty.

TBH i think the quetion is do we need other stages other than FD

Yes, we do need other stages.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yes, we do need other stages.

What do you say this?If the game is being optimized for FD than that should be the stage of choice.

 

[Chimera]

Aren't all the FDs the same besides the theme? I know there are no hazards. The only difference could be the size of the stage.

 

[mimgrim]

What do you say this?If the game is being optimized for FD than that should be the stage of choice.

That's assuming it being optimized to FD, which I actually doubt plus this is Sakurai anyway and at this point I don't really trust his balance decisions. And even then. I still say no. Because other stages deserve to be played on to that are just as good.

 

[TimeSmash]

Aren't all the FDs the same besides the theme? I know there are no hazards. The only difference could be the size of the stage.

It's definitely possibly, which would make this whole argument a lot simpler. But we don't know if they all are and/or if hazards will still be present.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

See I think we do, because platforms alone change gameplay. And the fact that some characters function better in a more dynamic change, that potentially changes or just has slopes or other non-continous and/or non-flat terrain. My question is more about the fact we're about to have ten million stages that are the opposite of that, and I'm in favor of cutting FD forms of stages down quite a lot. If they all play exactly the same, then I'm definitely in favor. As with all speculative arguments everything is in preparation for the game and not SUPER factual, but talking about stuff like this now will help us out in the long run when the chaos of the game being released comes haha. I definitely agree with you that counters are messy, but they do help a lot of players and characters excel, and add to variability of the metagame itself.

But thats where im getting at.
Its could be like this.
Little mac vs MK (final destination)= Anyones game cuz balance
little mac vs MK (battle field) = MK win cuz of better air game.

Basically now that sakurai is focusing on ground games being forced to jump equal immediate dis advantage when the character wants to keep thier feet on the ground.

Air characters can operate on FD but ground characters can't operate on platforms as well.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

That's assuming it being optimized to FD, which I actually doubt plus this is Sakurai anyway and at this point I don't really trust his balance decisions. And even then. I still say no. Because other stages deserve to be played on to that are just as good.

How can you doubt it if hes implying FD as the competitive stage.
besides hes has a hole team of people poking out balance issues. And suggesting things.
*edit* woops double post.

 

[mimgrim]

How can you doubt it if hes implying FD as the competitive stage.

64, Melee, and Brawl. That's how.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

64, Melee, and Brawl. That's how.

Ah this is why i wish we were more open to the Japanese meta. But i guess ill be fundamentally alone in this.

 

[Chimera]

That's assuming it being optimized to FD, which I actually doubt plus this is Sakurai anyway and at this point I don't really trust his balance decisions. And even then. I still say no. Because other stages deserve to be played on to that are just as good.

It's definitely possibly, which would make this whole argument a lot simpler. But we don't know if they all are and/or if hazards will still be present.

There are no hazards. That's the whole point. He describes FD as a " a flat stage with no other features" and then immediately says every stage will have a final destination form. There are no hazards.

 

[mimgrim]

There are no hazards. That's the whole point. He describes FD as a " a flat stage with no other features" and then immediately says every stage will have a final destination form. There are no hazards.

I said nothing about hazards.

 

[TimeSmash]

There are no hazards. That's the whole point. He describes FD as a " a flat stage with no other features" and then immediately says every stage will have a final destination form. There are no hazards.

Is that how he described the FD forms of each stage? Because if so then consider that argument moot, haha

 

[Chimera]

I said nothing about hazards.

Apologies. Ignore my quote then.

Is that how he described the FD forms of each stage? Because if so then consider that argument moot, haha

What? That's like me saying "I bought this blue shirt, and bought you one just like it" and then you coming along and asking if the shirt is red.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Sakurai kind of states in the video why exactly he did this. He did it because he wants to have players experience all of the game with the comfort of no hazards. When people played online in vs Anyone Brawl, you either got Final Destination or Hyrule temple, and it'd be the same stage over and over, and over again. Sakurai probably realized this and so he did something about it, which I think is great because playing on the same stage over and over again is really boring.

Im looking at you Training Mode Stage in Street Fighter 4

Maybe Sakurai would've added platforms to For Glory Mode, but in Brawl, Final destination was just picked way more often then Battlefield or any other neutral stage, at least from my online experience I had with the game.

 

[Stueyman2099]

TBH i think the quetion is do we need other stages other than FD
If the developer make a solid balance to all characters performance on FD are other stages needed?
Counter characters can exist. But if counter stages are gone i think thats for the better since it was quite messy.

If this were the case, then yes, that would be awesome. Sadly, I don't think it is.

Past games simply weren't designed to be balanced competitively. They were built as a party game. With random variables to mix things up. Smash as a competitive game is the result of the player base setting rules which remove these aspects. Even further, I don't trust Sakarai to have any clue how to balance fighting game characters. MK showed that pretty blatantly.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Even further, I don't trust Sakarai to have any clue how to balance fighting game characters. MK showed that pretty blatantly.

I think that's a bit unfair to say. How many people have created a balanced game when the roster is that big on the first version of the game? Games that have updates like Street Fighter 4 and Project M are going to have more balanced rosters because they can fix what they messed up on, Brawl never had any updates and they just shot it out there and whatever was there was there.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Sakurai kind of states in the video why exactly he did this. He did it because he wants to have players experience all of the game with the comfort of no hazards. When people played online in vs Anyone Brawl, you either got Final Destination or Hyrule temple, and it'd be the same stage over and over, and over again. Sakurai probably realized this and so he did something about it, which I think is great because playing on the same stage over and over again is really boring.

Im looking at you Training Mode Stage in Street Fighter 4

Maybe Sakurai would've added platforms to For Glory Mode, but in Brawl, Final destination was just picked way more often then Battlefield or any other neutral stage, at least from my online experience I had with the game.

I believe the reason sakurai chose Fd is because the Japanese meta is only FD. you can imagine there tier list is quite different.

 

[Stueyman2099]

I think that's a bit unfair to say. How many people have created a balanced game when the roster is that big on the first version of the game? Games that have updates like Street Fighter 4 and Project M are going to have more balanced rosters because they can fix what they messed up on, Brawl never had any updates and they just shot it out there and whatever was there was there.

I didn't follow SF 4 at all really, but did it have a character like MK in terms of balance at release?

 

[praline]

I know I won't be using them. It ruins the fun of the game.

 

[Morbi]

I honestly didn't read the thread; so I am most probably misinformed... but aren't all Final Destination stages neutral stages without platforms? I don't believe stages like that are banned.

 

[Stueyman2099]

I honestly didn't read the thread; so I am most probably misinformed... but aren't all Final Destination stages neutral stages without platforms? I don't believe stages like that are banned.

I believe some concerns have been brought up about the underside of each stage being different. Not sure it's any kind of valid concern though.

 

[Morbi]

I believe some concerns have been brought up about the underside of each stage being different. Not sure it's any kind of valid concern though.

I suppose it is something to consider; but I doubt banning every variation of the stage is the solution.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I didn't follow SF 4 at all really, but did it have a character like MK in terms of balance at release?

Over their couple of updates and patches to the game, they've had quite a few overly powerful characters like MK. The original version had Sagat who was really powerful and in the much later Arcade Edition Yun was overpowered. In the most recent update to the game, they now have a special mode where you can play any version of a character, and people are comparing who is cheaper, AE Yun or Vanilla Sagat.

 

[Stueyman2099]

Over their couple of updates and patches to the game, they've had quite a few overly powerful characters like MK. The original version had Sagat who was really powerful and in the much later Arcade Edition Yun was overpowered. In the most recent update to the game, they now have a special mode where you can play any version of a character, and people are comparing who is cheaper, AE Yun or Vanilla Sagat.

Maybe MK was just a one off then? Melee had some evolution through it's life. From Fox being the end all, to people figuring out Falco, and beyond. AFAIK though MK was just silly from start to present.

Regardless of that though, the conversation brings up the great point that balance patches would be a huge boon to the game as a competitive title. Hopefully that happens, as it seems they've realized there's a group of people who want it as such.

 

[ChikoLad]

I didn't follow SF 4 at all really, but did it have a character like MK in terms of balance at release?

While it's not SFIV, Playstation All-Stars has had tons of balance patches. At the start, Kratos was over powered, as he was very strong, had great range, had omni range with a few attacks, his attacks came out fast, combos were super easy, and his Super Attacks were pretty good. He had no blatant shortcomings. Since then, they've given some attacks less range, slowed him down a bit, balance his power a bit more (so not every single attack is really strong), and stuff like that. Of course, lots of other characters received changes overtime.

Also, PS All-Stars' latest balancing patch came very recently, and it was a very big one. So big, it got it's own trailer.

Just to give an idea of how balancing patches can go down.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Assuming all FD iterations are hazard-less and only differ in size and blast zone depth, I don't think any particular version should be banned. Blast zone Depth, stage size, and stage spike possibilities all add generally harmless variety to the selection amongst FDs. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think this is as big of an issue.

 

[ChikoLad]

Also, Sakurai did specifically say that FD variants will have no hazards.

The fact that some are shaped slightly differently, perched on a cliff, or vary in size is just the result of reusing some assets or trying to keep within a level's established aesthetics. In reality, the change is only there for aesthetic and musical variety. And in some stages, you can see the hazards/gimmicks are gone (Pyrosphere has no lava, Mario Galaxy has no quirky gravity, Gerudo Valley has no breakable bridge, spikes, or Twinrova, etc).

I mean, even if he didn't specify this, why would he remove platforms, but NOT the hazards? Contrary to popular belief, even Sakurai understands that much about what the competitive players want. He knows we don't want intrusive hazards or random elements when we play competitively.

 

[D-idara]

I believe some concerns have been brought up about the underside of each stage being different. Not sure it's any kind of valid concern though.

lol, it's not.

nit·pick·ing
n.
Minute, trivial, unnecessary, and unjustified criticism or faultfinding.

Seriously, when people are unable to adapt to the point that they care about the undersides of stages favoring some kinds of recoveries, you know the competitive community has a problem.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

lol, it's not.

nit·pick·ing
n.
Minute, trivial, unnecessary, and unjustified criticism or faultfinding.

Seriously, when people are unable to adapt to the point that they care about the undersides of stages favoring some kinds of recoveries, you know the competitive community has a problem.

Or...

They're focusing on something that does impact competitive play and is an interesting topic to talk about.

If you're going to start an anti-competitive argument, then I suggest you leave this thread.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Or...

They're focusing on something that does impact competitive play and is an interesting topic to talk about.

If you're going to start an anti-competitive argument, then I suggest you leave this thread.

i think the talking of FD undersides is still abit much. Coming from a competitive player.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

i think the talking of FD undersides is still abit much. Coming from a competitive player.

There is a big difference between a wall, lip shaped platforms and just simple platforms.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

There is a big difference between a wall, lip shaped platforms and just simple platforms.

Did i question that?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Did i question that?

No. I just think the difference is bigger than you think.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

No. I just think the difference is bigger than you think.

Im very well aware of the recoveries some characters get become godly like mario. but in the end it still happens anyway is you watch mew2kings mario games on FD he still wall jumps back up. I just don't think it matters that much.

 

[D-idara]

Or...

They're focusing on something that does impact competitive play and is an interesting topic to talk about.

If you're going to start an anti-competitive argument, then I suggest you leave this thread.

What I really dislike has to be how they label everything easier as 'bad'...there's NO -100% balanced for all characters- stage, so a stage giving slight advantages to a certain type of character is just a natural thing, the fact that people want to ban stages based on the undersides of the stage alone...that's just...a little bit nitpicky!? Unless you're M2K using Fox againist someone who plays fair, you'll be spending like 5% of your time on the edges or below them.