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Fight to the beat of the music and your heart! Cadence for smash Support thread

amageish

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So I finally finished my Cadence doc. Feedback is appreciated.
I like it! Good balance of rhythm elements and having a normal moveset that could work on any stage with any music playing.

I hadn't considered how they'd depict her proportions... She has been made quite a bit chibier in Cadence of Hyrule, but it's tough to say if that's just a GBA-era-Zelda inspiration or if it'll be a thing for future games in the franchise.

I really like the approach to her classic mode as well! Repping the zones is very clever.

I like the Mii Costumes and the dedication to rhythm games, though I do wonder if it'd be a good time to do Zelda and Danganronpa Mii Costumes as well, given their crossovers with Crypt of the Necrodancer? I don't think Impa has a costume, which could work well. For DR, they'd probably just do a Monokuma hat and Makoto or Hajime, but Ibuki would be amazing if they wanted to stay dedicated to a music theme.

I like the spirit battles a lot, though I do feel like they could rep more playable characters instead of that many enemies? Eli and Bolt strike me as logical choices.
 

Paraster

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I like it! Good balance of rhythm elements and having a normal moveset that could work on any stage with any music playing.

I hadn't considered how they'd depict her proportions... She has been made quite a bit chibier in Cadence of Hyrule, but it's tough to say if that's just a GBA-era-Zelda inspiration or if it'll be a thing for future games in the franchise.

I really like the approach to her classic mode as well! Repping the zones is very clever.

I like the Mii Costumes and the dedication to rhythm games, though I do wonder if it'd be a good time to do Zelda and Danganronpa Mii Costumes as well, given their crossovers with Crypt of the Necrodancer? I don't think Impa has a costume, which could work well. For DR, they'd probably just do a Monokuma hat and Makoto or Hajime, but Ibuki would be amazing if they wanted to stay dedicated to a music theme.

I like the spirit battles a lot, though I do feel like they could rep more playable characters instead of that many enemies? Eli and Bolt strike me as logical choices.
Oh, geez, Impa and Monokuma would be great costume options. Maybe I'll go back and add them in.

For the spirits, I wanted to keep the count low, since the biggest DLC Spirit Board(s) we've had only had 11, so I felt 8 was a safe number. I also had a bit of a formula: Novice was end-of-game minibosses, Advanced was (plot-relevant) player characters, Ace was effectively miscellaneous, and Legend was the Necrodancer himself. Like I said, though, I might go back and make changes/additions later. I do have a soft spot for Bolt (despite not even having unlocked them yet).
 
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amageish

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Oh, geez, Impa and Monokuma would be great costume options. Maybe I'll go back and add them in.

For the spirits, I wanted to keep the count low, since the biggest DLC Spirit Board(s) we've had only had 11, so I felt 8 was a safe number. I also had a bit of a formula: Novice was end-of-game minibosses, Advanced was (plot-relevant) player characters, Ace was effectively miscellaneous, and Legend was the Necrodancer himself. Like I said, though, I might go back and make changes/additions later. I do have a soft spot for Bolt (despite not even having unlocked them yet).
I do like the rhythm game theming a lot, though I'd be kind of surprised if Cadence got into Smash without Spike Chunsoft getting some other content with her. They don't own the IP, but the fact they've acted as in-betweens for Cadence of Hyrule feels significant here.

That's a really cool approach and I think 8 is a reasonable number. I just feel like the playable characters probably would get first dibs, even if it means they'd be Novices and you don't have many evil characters... I guess they've been fairly inconsistent with that balance from board to board though, as Dragon Quest is almost all enemies while Persona doesn't even have Jack Frost as a spirit.

Knowing Brace Yourself Games, I do feel like representation may be important for them as well, which could boost the odds of Bolt in particular IMO, even if their role in the overall lore is largely unexplained thus far. Granted, I also imagine Brace Yourself Games would not be in the position of power negotiation-wise, so maybe they wouldn't be able to make that sort of request...
 

Paraster

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I do like the rhythm game theming a lot, though I'd be kind of surprised if Cadence got into Smash without Spike Chunsoft getting some other content with her. They don't own the IP, but the fact they've acted as in-betweens for Cadence of Hyrule feels significant here.

That's a really cool approach and I think 8 is a reasonable number. I just feel like the playable characters probably would get first dibs, even if it means they'd be Novices and you don't have many evil characters... I guess they've been fairly inconsistent with that balance from board to board though, as Dragon Quest is almost all enemies while Persona doesn't even have Jack Frost as a spirit.

Knowing Brace Yourself Games, I do feel like representation may be important for them as well, which could boost the odds of Bolt in particular IMO, even if their role in the overall lore is largely unexplained thus far. Granted, I also imagine Brace Yourself Games would not be in the position of power negotiation-wise, so maybe they wouldn't be able to make that sort of request...
Honestly, I could add Eli and Bolt and it'd still be a reasonable spirit count. Especially if I removed Frankensteinway; he's not that important ultimately.

I'm not that familiar with Spike Chunsoft stuff, so I didn't even consider adding something of theirs. I'll look them up and see if I can find any good potential costumes (aside from Monokuma who I only discovered now is tied to them). Honestly, while I really like Rhythm Thief (in concept; haven't played more than the demo long ago), adding a fairly nondescript hat could be considered a very underwhelming Mii costume, so it could be replaced.
 
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amageish

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Honestly, I could add Eli and Bolt and it'd still be a reasonable spirit count. Especially if I removed Frankensteinway; he's not that important ultimately.

I'm not that familiar with Spike Chunsoft stuff, so I didn't even consider adding something of theirs. I'll look them up and see if I can find any good potential costumes.
That's true as well! Frankensteinway is a super fun boss, but the Conductor is the real star of the show there anyway. 9 spirits feels reasonable enough.

Spike doesn't really have that many IPs they are well-known for, worldwide at least. Danganronpa is pretty famous in its niche, but beyond that... Mystery Dungeon is famous as a game franchise, but I imagine most people know it exclusively as a Pokemon spin-off and wouldn't know who Shiren the Wanderer is? Crypt of the Necrodancer really includes all their famous IPs as skins right now...
 

Paraster

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Okay, I'm trying to pick out a base-roster fighter to represent Bolt (even if I don't end up adding them to the Board, this'll be fun, and I do have another doc for miscellaneous spirits), but I can't decide on one.

My best lead is Corrin for their Dragon Fang attacks being somewhat spear-like, but none of the color schemes seem to match up.

Diddy Kong has a costume that involves both purple and yellow, Bolt's most distinct colors, but Diddy as a whole doesn't seem to fit Bolt that well (and representing a black character with a monkey could potentially look very racist).
 

amageish

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Okay, I'm trying to pick out a base-roster fighter to represent Bolt (even if I don't end up adding them to the Board, this'll be fun, and I do have another doc for miscellaneous spirits), but I can't decide on one.

My best lead is Corrin for their Dragon Fang attacks being somewhat spear-like, but none of the color schemes seem to match up.

Diddy Kong has a costume that involves both purple and yellow, Bolt's most distinct colors, but Diddy as a whole doesn't seem to fit Bolt that well (and representing a black character with a monkey could potentially look very racist).
That... is a big challenge, yeah. I hadn't considered the problem of repping a black character with a spear... Smash lacks both of those.

I think Corrin's magenta alt may be the best choice, even though that'd be repping their hair colour over everything else... Byleth's Claude alt with a focus on the lance Smash attacks would be good if DLC as an option, but... yeah... Otherwise it's pretty hard.
 

Megadoomer

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How accessible is Cadence of Hyrule? I tried Crypt of the NecroDancer on Steam, and I died on the first non-tutorial level. Not sure if that's a sign of the game's difficulty, or if there's something about the game that I'm missing, but I want to try the series/games out, at least.
 
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amageish

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How accessible is Cadence of Hyrule? I tried Crypt of the NecroDancer on Steam, and I died on the first non-tutorial level. Not sure if that's a sign of the game's difficulty, or if there's something about the game that I'm missing, but I want to try the series/games out, at least.
I think it's both easier and harder in some ways? There are more save-points, as it's about exploring one continued world as opposed to individual zones of a crypt. That said, the randomly-placed biomes also gives the player a bit less time to memorize enemy movement patterns, while the original game works very carefully to built more and more complicated enemies zone by zone.

Granted, dying is definitely something that you should get used to in both games. They're roguelikes at heart, so the point is definitely to try and try again, unlocking new items and boosts with diamonds/rupees from run to run. If you were able to survive the first non-tutorial level on the first try, then I'd be both very impressed and honestly slightly confused haha.

I generally recommend playing in the rhythmless modes first for practice. This is a seperate mode called "Fixed Beat Mode" in Cadence of Hyrule, while it's the powers of the Bard character in Crypt of the Necrodancer. Enemies will just move when you move, instead of moving to the rhythm of the music, so you can easily memorize enemy movement/attack patterns at your own pace. It's a good way to get used to dealing with the enemies and the core gameplay, helping train you for playing the full game with rhythm elements on.

All of that said, I'd say both games are fairly niche. Blending roguelikes and rhythm games is super clever and creative and I think it's a lot of fun, but it kind of requires you enjoy the repetitive/adaptable nature of both genres. You need to be cool with failing on a bossfight and losing a lot of progress. They aren't genres for everyone, so Crypt of the Necrodancer isn't exactly a game I'd recommend to everyone.
 

Paraster

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What do you think Cadence's Boxing Ring title would be? I went for "Heir of a Musical Curse" in my doc, but I've been trying to come up with something that's more of a pun if possible.
 

amageish

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What do you think Cadence's Boxing Ring title would be? I went for "Heir of a Musical Curse" in my doc, but I've been trying to come up with something that's more of a pun if possible.
Hmmm... My impulse is to make a pun off of "Beat," but Cadence's moves don't feel like they can fairly be characterized as bringing "Beat-Down" and such. It'd be funny to make a pun that uses the word cadence, but it's also an uncommon word and would look weird twice on the sign... "Explorer Cursed by a Lyre" could be funny, but is a bit a long...

Also, random thought from checking the wiki: Choral exists. I honestly completely forgot she existed. Do we think she'd be an alt in Smash Bros? On one hand, she looks like just like Cadence, which makes her a logical alt. On the other hand, she has no real presence in the game beyond co-op...
 

Paraster

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If Cadence made it in, how do you think they would handle the music? Would they exclusively use the original Danny B soundtrack, would they borrow from a few of the other soundtracks, or would they take at least one song from all of the 7 official soundtracks?
 

amageish

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If Cadence made it in, how do you think they would handle the music? Would they exclusively use the original Danny B soundtrack, would they borrow from a few of the other soundtracks, or would they take at least one song from all of the 7 official soundtracks?
That's, uh, a challenging question. I guess it'd partly depend on licensing, but I also can't imagine any of the composers/arrangers rejecting having their work featured in Smash.

I feel like the OC ReMix version would be the most obligatory of all the non-Danny-B-ones, as Nocturna is the DLC protagonist and therefore their version of the stage 5 themes feel like the "default" to me, but I don't know otherwise... I think you could justify including everyone, but I also don't think it's obligatory as most players won't unlock all of the characters needed to hear every unique soundtrack by default.

I'm unsure how much shopkeeper they would include in the various songs either... Plus, if they wanted to go completely nuts, then they could theoretically include Cadence of Hyrule songs?

That said, if we're picking one for each soundtrack and also trying to represent as many areas of the game, then here are my picks:

Danny B: Disco Descent (1-1)
Danny B: Grave Throbbing (2-2 with Shopkeeper)
A_Rival: Stone Cold (3-1)
FamilyJules: Pyrodancer (Death Metal)
virt: Knight to C-Sharp (Deep Blues)
Girlfriend Records: Styx and Stones (4-1)
OC Remix: Power Chords (5-2)
Chipzel: The Wight to Remain (4-3)
Danganronpa: Discussion -HEAT UP- (1-3)
Groove Coster: Rhythmortis (Lobby)

Then toss in the final boss themes and I'm a happy camper!
 

Paraster

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That's, uh, a challenging question. I guess it'd partly depend on licensing, but I also can't imagine any of the composers/arrangers rejecting having their work featured in Smash.

I feel like the OC ReMix version would be the most obligatory of all the non-Danny-B-ones, as Nocturna is the DLC protagonist and therefore their version of the stage 5 themes feel like the "default" to me, but I don't know otherwise... I think you could justify including everyone, but I also don't think it's obligatory as most players won't unlock all of the characters needed to hear every unique soundtrack by default.

I'm unsure how much shopkeeper they would include in the various songs either... Plus, if they wanted to go completely nuts, then they could theoretically include Cadence of Hyrule songs?

That said, if we're picking one for each soundtrack and also trying to represent as many areas of the game, then here are my picks:

Danny B: Disco Descent (1-1)
Danny B: Grave Throbbing (2-2 with Shopkeeper)
A_Rival: Stone Cold (3-1)
FamilyJules: Pyrodancer (Death Metal)
virt: Knight to C-Sharp (Deep Blues)
Girlfriend Records: Styx and Stones (4-1)
OC Remix: Power Chords (5-2)
Chipzel: The Wight to Remain (4-3)
Danganronpa: Discussion -HEAT UP- (1-3)
Groove Coster: Rhythmortis (Lobby)

Then toss in the final boss themes and I'm a happy camper!
I personally edited my Cadence doc earlier today to work in the "one song per soundtrack" thing, although I just went through the songs I had already picked and chose different OSTs for each. (And I had already picked two songs that would use the A_Rival and FamilyJules versions respectively, so I just left those as is.)

Danny B: Absolutetion, Steinway to Heaven, Vamplified
A_Rival: Grave Throbbing
FamilyJules: Styx and Stones
Chipzel: Deep Sea Bass
Girlfriend Records: Konga Konga Kappa
virt: Igneous Rock
OCRemix: Dance of the Decorous
New Smash remixes: Disco Descent, For Whom The Knell Tolls, Momentum Mori / Last Dance (medley of these two), Six Feet Thunder

I specifically noted that they could must stick with the Danny B soundtrack, though I would like to at least keep the A_Rival and FamilyJules picks.
 
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amageish

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Random Thought: Crypt of the Necrodancer, if unable to get a full character pack, could be well-suited if they wanted to suddenly do a solo stage or maybe a stage + Mii Costume situation. Like, instead of having Cadence as a rhythm-based character, have her stage have a gimmick where any attack that is hit to the beat of the music does extra damage! Pulsing heart icon is there to help guide you... and online lag makes it a slight nightmare haha...
 

amageish

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New Crypt merch is out; 3D figurines. I like this look a lot for a 3D Cadence; it has the chibi-ish/GBA vibes of CoH while still keeping the original game body proportions. If we get her in a 3D game, I'd like to see her looking like this.
 

CapitaineCrash

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I honestly think that Cadence has way more chances than people gives her credit. Cadence of Hyrule released in Summer 2019, which is around the time they where probably thinking about making the second fighter pass. Nintendo could have negotiate easily for Cadence in Smash while the crossover was in development. Also despite having a pretty big marketing push and a physical release, they never did a spirit events and she still don't have a mii costume.

Also I always see the argument "they never going to put Cadence because other indie characters like Sans, Cuphead and Shantae got only a mii". While this is true, I actually see this as something positive because it shows that Nintendo and Sakurai care about indie games enough to give them content. Who knows, maybe Sakurai could have picked Cadence because of the rhythm concept despite that she's less popular than Shantae and others (kind of like Terry who was chosen before other more popular fighting games).
 

amageish

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I honestly think that Cadence has way more chances than people gives her credit. Cadence of Hyrule released in Summer 2019, which is around the time they where probably thinking about making the second fighter pass. Nintendo could have negotiate easily for Cadence in Smash while the crossover was in development. Also despite having a pretty big marketing push and a physical release, they never did a spirit events and she still don't have a mii costume.

Also I always see the argument "they never going to put Cadence because other indie characters like Sans, Cuphead and Shantae got only a mii". While this is true, I actually see this as something positive because it shows that Nintendo and Sakurai care about indie games enough to give them content. Who knows, maybe Sakurai could have picked Cadence because of the rhythm concept despite that she's less popular than Shantae and others (kind of like Terry who was chosen before other more popular fighting games).
I 100% agree with all of this. Before the DLC character was announced to be coming in its own presentation, I thought Cadence was the most-likely of my most-wanted characters (which is still low odds as I don't want anyone who I actually think is that likely, but still).

I think people generally ruled out indies way too quickly; Sans went from "never going to get in" to "him not getting in deconfirms the concepts of indies," which I find quite funny. I think it makes sense that they may pick a smaller indie title, partly just for the PR of it - "We care about indies so much; we don't need you to sell million of copies of to get into the game!" - and Cadence is obviously someone they have a tie with the developers of already...

The weirdest thing to me is that it seems like Smash actively avoided having a CoH spirit event. The week CoH released they had a Link's Awakening spirit event - months before that game actually released. We haven't seen another spirit event that predated a game's launch by such a wide margin since Link's Awakening and CoH still hasn't had any content, even when indies like Shantae, UNDERTALE, and Sakuna have gotten stuff since....
 

Paraster

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I honestly think that Cadence has way more chances than people gives her credit. Cadence of Hyrule released in Summer 2019, which is around the time they where probably thinking about making the second fighter pass. Nintendo could have negotiate easily for Cadence in Smash while the crossover was in development. Also despite having a pretty big marketing push and a physical release, they never did a spirit events and she still don't have a mii costume.

Also I always see the argument "they never going to put Cadence because other indie characters like Sans, Cuphead and Shantae got only a mii". While this is true, I actually see this as something positive because it shows that Nintendo and Sakurai care about indie games enough to give them content. Who knows, maybe Sakurai could have picked Cadence because of the rhythm concept despite that she's less popular than Shantae and others (kind of like Terry who was chosen before other more popular fighting games).
Agreed. I think the odds of an indie character in general are higher than many say, and Cadence is among the most likely in my eyes.

I'd say that Frisk (or Papyrus), Reimu, or Quote are a bit more likely just down to being more currently relevant and/or historically significant, but Cadence shouldn't be counted out just yet.
 

fogbadge

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Agreed. I think the odds of an indie character in general are higher than many say, and Cadence is among the most likely in my eyes.

I'd say that Frisk (or Papyrus), Reimu, or Quote are a bit more likely just down to being more currently relevant and/or historically significant, but Cadence shouldn't be counted out just yet.
why would historically significant matter?
 

Paraster

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why would historically significant matter?
I don't think it should be the only factor, but in a game all about honoring video game history, I think it makes sense to represent characters and games that have played big roles in that history. In addition, historical significance usually translates to being more well-known, which also helps.
 

fogbadge

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I don't think it should be the only factor, but in a game all about honoring video game history, I think it makes sense to represent characters and games that have played big roles in that history. In addition, historical significance usually translates to being more well-known, which also helps.
nuts not about video game history. It’s about the crossover
 

amageish

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It's hard to tell how much of the "Smash is a celebration of gaming history" thing is truly a factor in character selection as opposed to be a factor in character advertising, but it definitely is something they at least pretend matters. There's a reason that the Presents usually spend 5-10 minutes listing historical anecdotes about the franchise and past entries like Brawl had the Masterpiece system...


Heck, Sakurai just called the game a "celebration of gaming" again via a tweet promoting the Tuesday presentation.
 

fogbadge

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It's hard to tell how much of the "Smash is a celebration of gaming history" thing is truly a factor in character selection as opposed to be a factor in character advertising, but it definitely is something they at least pretend matters. There's a reason that the Presents usually spend 5-10 minutes listing historical anecdotes about the franchise and past entries like Brawl had the Masterpiece system...


Heck, Sakurai just called the game a "celebration of gaming" again via a tweet promoting the Tuesday presentation.
its more a celebration of the gaming he likes
 
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