FifthCPU's Custom AI Discussion/Workshop

[FifthCPU]

Sounds awesome!

Well since you can only tether to the ledge when you're facing it, if you're knocked offstage and facing away from the ledge, you use magnet quickly and either B reverse it or B turnaround (B turnaround is usually better, and is just doing down and slightly towards ledge on the stick then B). You can also use it before you use your jump then jump out of the magnet after it turns you around, which should be faster than jump and then magnet and then wait for all of magnet end lag (since you can jump out of magnet before the first IASA frame). And of course airdodge before tether.

I think I might try to work that in! I've gotten way more comfortable at recovery code, enough that I can actually make the CPU use moves like magnet instead of just stealing tether code. The only issue is that they automatically turn around, so I can't really do a reverse magnet.

 

[nimigoha]

What do you mean they automatically turn around? The CPU by itself magically? Or if it tries to do a magnet it will automatically turn it around?

 

[FifthCPU]

I mean whenever it gets knocked back it always comes out of hitstun facing the stage already for some reason. I don't know exactly what input is causing that :/

 

[nimigoha]

Oh, I'm like 99% sure about this but when you get hit your character turns to face where the hit came from. So if you get hit offstage you'll come out of hitstun facing the stage. Magnet turnaround is really only if your opponent drops down to edgeguard you and hits you towards the stage (so you're facing away and need to turn around if you want to airdodge/tether) or if you jump off facing away for an edgeguard.

 

[FifthCPU]

You're probably right, that sounds familiar. Hmmmm... I have some ideas about how to implement that but not sure how to test it very well.

I guess next on the recovery lineup are Luigi, Lucas, and maybe Mario.

EDIT: Ivysaur first, since she's really easy to do.

 

[nimigoha]

The Smashing Marth is sorta weird, are you still working on him?

Also Squirtle crashed. Sorry I didn't write down the situation but I was on SV and was playing Marth, will keep playing around and seeing if it crashes again.

 

[FifthCPU]

The Smashing Marth is sorta weird, are you still working on him?

Also Squirtle crashed. Sorry I didn't write down the situation but I was on SV and was playing Marth, will keep playing around and seeing if it crashes again.

Yeah... squirtle just kinda needs a rewrite, because some typo somewhere is screwing him up, plus his neutral isn't as good as I'd like. Fsmash marth was someone's request on customsmash, it just stands and Fsmashes (I think, I didn't bother testing him). I'm not sure why they needed him but it took like all of 3 minutes so I was happy to oblige.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I like the concept, can you write a script that makes him walk towards the nearest ledge, stop at tipper range, and then Fsmash tipper the ledge? Right now he just kinda walks around aimlessly FSmashing, but usually just stays put. If I figure out the timing of repeated Fsmash, I can time my recovery to get Fsmashed and try to tech it.

 

[FifthCPU]

Yeah I like the concept, can you write a script that makes him walk towards the nearest ledge, stop at tipper range, and then Fsmash tipper the ledge? Right now he just kinda walks around aimlessly FSmashing, but usually just stays put. If I figure out the timing of repeated Fsmash, I can time my recovery to get Fsmashed and try to tech it.

I'm going to say probably. I think I could just get it to walk forward until X units of distance away from the edge, then repeatedly Fsmash --> Wavedash back. There's also a little used code that handles what to do if the opponent is hanging on the ledge. Its disabled by default, but I could probably just enable that, make a few edits to the edgeguard routine, and tell it to Fsmash.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I mean it wouldn't have to Wavedash back after reaching the tipper point, it could just repeatedly Fsmash.

Are you able to make it alter its Fsmash timing depending on how far away an opponent is? Like could it stand idly until my Firefox is close and then Fsmash to tipper me? Would you be able to make this vary depending on the character recovering?

 

[FifthCPU]

Yeah I mean it wouldn't have to Wavedash back after reaching the tipper point, it could just repeatedly Fsmash.

Are you able to make it alter its Fsmash timing depending on how far away an opponent is? Like could it stand idly until my Firefox is close and then Fsmash to tipper me? Would you be able to make this vary depending on the character recovering?

I just thought of the wavedash back since Fsmash probably moves Marth forward a tiny bit, so over time the timing would be off. All of those things are possible, but each one adds another layer of complexity and craziness to the code.

 

[nimigoha]

He doesn't move forward.

 

[FifthCPU]

He doesn't move forward.

Ah, Ok then. Makes things much simpler.

 

[FifthCPU]

In the OP link, in the folder "AI Shtuff," I've made a changelog of what recoveries I've changed and what I plan to do for each CPU. Input is appreciated

Also appreciated are any ideas on coding glide, because seriously wow I have no clue how to do that.

 

[nimigoha]

You mention in the changelog that Fox and Falco's recoveries are already good. All they do right now is drop to Side B sweetspot height and sweetspot or drop to Up B sweetspot height and sweetspot, and very occasionally will not sweetspot and go slightly higher. It's absolutely not as important as any of the broken recoveries but could you make it do things like use Up B while above the stage and either go straight/sweetspot down/recover high? Or Side B while above the ledge and either shorten or not? Things like these would greatly improve the unpredictability of spacie recovery since right now it's super easy to kill them once they're offstage, all you every have to do is grab ledge and roll. More of "please make it function as a practice partner -ish" than "this bot is borked" and obviously unborking other bots is a better way to spend time.

 

[FifthCPU]

You mention in the changelog that Fox and Falco's recoveries are already good. All they do right now is drop to Side B sweetspot height and sweetspot or drop to Up B sweetspot height and sweetspot, and very occasionally will not sweetspot and go slightly higher. It's absolutely not as important as any of the broken recoveries but could you make it do things like use Up B while above the stage and either go straight/sweetspot down/recover high? Or Side B while above the ledge and either shorten or not? Things like these would greatly improve the unpredictability of spacie recovery since right now it's super easy to kill them once they're offstage, all you every have to do is grab ledge and roll. More of "please make it function as a practice partner -ish" than "this bot is borked" and obviously unborking other bots is a better way to spend time.

Good to know! I'll probably talk to KC before I touch those, since he personally made them and they're built very differently from the standard recovery code, so I don't necessarily want to mess with them too much. I definitely can do all that stuff using a function to check whether or not the ledge is occupied and jumping to other places in the code if it is, and shortened side-B is just an easy frame check and a bunch of if statements.

For me right now the most important recoveries to fix are probably Mewtwo, Pikachu, and Marth, since they're all the closest to ZSS in terms of just being absolute fails. Mewtwo is insanely predictable and braindead (huge slow double jump everytime for the win), Marth airdodges and doesn't use side-B at all, and Pikachu just utterly fails in every way at quick attack.

 

[FifthCPU]

KingClubber If you're interested, I have a routine that can be used for every character. I can't remember the number off the top of my head, but its the one that deals with ledge getup options, and essentially it makes CPUs hang on the ledge if the opponent is recovering low, in an attempt to edgehog players.

 

[nimigoha]

KEEP BUILDING BOTS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

 

[KingClubber]

 

[FifthCPU]

Well I guess I understand the radio silence. I'm sorry, I know this must've been hard.

 

[nimigoha]

Aw ****. RIP the dream. AI development was what I looked forward to most in future updates, everything else was pretty much there.

 

[FifthCPU]

Welp, time to learn Brawl AI (immediately begins diving into creating a really trolly ice climbers AI).

Or maybe keep creating for P:M. Or move onto some entirely new project. Who knows...

EDIT FROM THE FUTURE: Or quit modding altogether. That's what I did.

KingClubber Thank you for all the help you've given me and for being there to bounce ideas off of. If you ever have a project (AI or anything else) you'd like help on or anything like that, I'm your man. I owe you. Working with you has been a pleasure.

 

[KingClubber]

It was fun, wish you had came along sooner. You really knew how to spin ideas that i hadn't thought about.

 

[Qazzquimby]

Why on earth would you make brawl AI? If enough quality content is produced for PM, it will be a PM update.

 

[KingClubber]

My response to Q Qazzquimby post to FifthCPU

It's dead, let it go.
Play the game, have fun, but stop trying to fix it.
Project M ai doesn't need anymore work cause no one is going to be looking to playing Cpu's anymore.
Don't make Project M an Brawl+
Beating a dead horse won't bring it back.

 

[FifthCPU]

I'm loving the Rick and Morty clips.

Yeah, as fun as it was, work on P:M AI (at least trying to fix it) is done. Maybe I'll make some superbot in the future, but actually trying to improve the code as a whole is done. Almost all my code (barring the wacky stuff that doesn't work) is already public, people can do with it what they will.

It hurts a lot to say it, but this era is done. Time to let the meta develop, and wait and see what happens.

 

[Qazzquimby]

Why is no one going to be playing cpus anymore?
And beyond development being a lot less unified, how is anything changed or finished?
I'm not sure where that movement is coming from.

 

[FifthCPU]

I'm going to continue to create bots probably, but I'm not going to do wholesale AI recovery improvement and such.

 

[nimigoha]

I'm going to continue to create bots probably, but I'm not going to do wholesale AI recovery improvement and such.

Can you release what you've done on AI stuff like recovery and DI and random teching?

 

[FifthCPU]

Can you release what you've done on AI stuff like recovery and DI and random teching?

EDIT: Nothing will be released anymore.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I'd steer clear of the new team thing, just put out your own stuff as you see fit!

 

[FifthCPU]

Finally had a tiny bit of free time to work on my snake TAS-style CPU. It just defeated a level 9 fox with two stocks left over.

...All I did so far was teach it chain throws and DACUSing.

This bot is disgusting.

 

[nimigoha]

Fifth do you know how to make different CPU levels do different things like KingClubber was planning?

One big one that would be awesome is making a Fox that only does Grabs>Uthrow>Uair to practice SDI.

 

[FifthCPU]

Yeah, although throw followups are pretty strange. I'm still trying to figure those out, but what I've done with chaining Dthrow seems to work great. In theory I could probably do it by reading subactions, or tell fox to go to a modified aerial combo routine that only has Uair.

I'm extremely hesitant about releasing anything due to the current legal conundrums facing multiple mods right now, so not sure what'll happen from here.

 

[FifthCPU]

KingClubber You want to weigh in on this? You're probably better informed.

I want to continue modding, but only if I'm not legally in the wrong. Could I either:

A.) Not release stuff I create other than videos of it

or

B.) Only release my own code with instructions in how to paste it into a bot's AI? I don't know if the code written in AIScriptpad or AIScriptpad itself infringe on any copyrights, I'm not entirely sure how the code in there is translated into the game's code. I'm still trying to plumb the depths of the legality of everything.

 

[KingClubber]

Continue work on AI but do not under any circumstances claim to be a part of the PMDT or to be working continuously on Project M and you should be safe to do what you want.

 

[FifthCPU]

Continue work on AI but do not under any circumstances claim to be a part of the PMDT or to be working continuously on Project M and you should be safe to do what you want.

Cool, good to know. Thanks for the quick reply! And there's no danger, of that, P:M's development is done.

 

[Cahalan]

Cool, good to know. Thanks for the quick reply! And there's no danger, of that, P:M's development is done.

And to chime in, if you're going to be dealing with psa's that are for the "Forbidden 4" (the scrapped 4 newcomers), please make sure to check if they use PMDT assets. If so, don't even bother posting them on hear as they'll get moderator edited out of existence. To put things in context, if you wanted to make a decent Non-chuckling echidna A.I.: use move-sets from Brawl Vault but not the leaked builds as a base.

 

[FifthCPU]

And to chime in, if you're going to be dealing with psa's that are for the "Forbidden 4" (the scrapped 4 newcomers), please make sure to check if they use PMDT assets. If so, don't even bother posting them on hear as they'll get moderator edited out of existence. To put things in context, if you wanted to make a decent Non-chuckling echidna A.I.: use move-sets from Brawl Vault but not the leaked builds as a base.

Thanks for the information. I actually have always tried to stay away from creating PSA's of new characters (both due to legality and my lack of 3d modeling skill), its just much more important now. I pretty much just write AI code. I haven't even touched 3.61 and the leaked build out of respect for PMDT.

Also, that CSS is beautiful.

EDIT: Don't write anything anymore, this thread is old and dead, plz leave me alone.

 

[Cahalan]

Thanks for the information. I actually have always tried to stay away from creating PSA's of new characters (both due to legality and my lack of 3d modeling skill), its just much more important now. I pretty much just write AI code. I haven't even touched 3.61 and the leaked build out of respect for PMDT.

Also, that CSS is beautiful.

Thanks. I'm going to experiment with mish-mashing it with a feature of Theytah's CSS in his build: he was able to give the "character" part of the CSS icons shadows (like natural, model shadows) and I wanted to see if it would work with Ondo's CSS since I use that as a base.

Also we can probably make PSA's of the Forbidden 4, though we can't use leaked assets. (Everything has to be from the ground up... though I can't blame you if you use what was leaked for move-set inspiration/ideas/concepts/the like but no use of leak assets)