Fellow Lucina mains, what characters give you the most trouble to beat?

FartyParty

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#1
1) Megaman - I really, really suck against this character. Even bad Megaman players tend to beat me. For the life of me I can't figure them out.
2) Jigglypuff - When I go up against a good Jigglypuff I just can't hit them with any consistency. They're small, they short hop around like crazy, and most of their moves come out quickly.
3) Cloud - Slightly less trouble than the first two, but when I come up against a really good Cloud, my only chance of winning seems to be luck. It just seems like they always have a perfect response to whatever strategy I try, and even though a lot of people say Cloud's moves are easy to read, I struggle with it. (As a side note, I've been in this one arena for about an hour now with a cloud player named EUG. Our first match was really close, but he's wrecked me in every match since and that's what prompted this post. EUG, if you ever see this, you're one difficult son of b**ch!)

EDIT:
4) Rob - Had to add this guy to the list. Pain in the *** all around.
 
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Xquirtle

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#3
1.) All Wifi lagging FD projectile camping degenerates
2.) I personally struggle with characters that can really go in, like squirtle or Chrom, even though Lucina should be fine against them

Just get Jiggs above you and Lucina ****s on her. Up tilts and up airs. Also keep in mind that any ability on her shield followed shield breaker will break it and instantly kill her. That works on everybody, like a falling nair into the shield + neutral B. Just one shots Jiggs b/c of her shield break mechanic.
 

Downshift

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#4
Zoners that can use multiple projectiles at once like Link, Duck Hunt, Mega Man, Ness/Lucas, Robin, ROB, and Samus (but as a Samus main I know the gaps and windows to go in).
When a good player can force my approach with camping I definitely lose my edge and become very predictable and punishable. Doesn't help that parrying isn't nearly as effective against projectile spammers as perfect shielding was.
 

FartyParty

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#5
Zoners that can use multiple projectiles at once like Link, Duck Hunt, Mega Man, Ness/Lucas, Robin, ROB, and Samus (but as a Samus main I know the gaps and windows to go in).
When a good player can force my approach with camping I definitely lose my edge and become very predictable and punishable. Doesn't help that parrying isn't nearly as effective against projectile spammers as perfect shielding was.
Unfortunately this struggle isn't unique to Lucina mains. It's common for almost every other main that isn't a zoner. Except like, Peach. Float beats projectiles. This is why she's my secondary.
 

Xquirtle

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#6
Unfortunately this struggle isn't unique to Lucina mains. It's common for almost every other main that isn't a zoner. Except like, Peach. Float beats projectiles. This is why she's my secondary.
Stage has a huge impact on this as well. I always play with battlefield specifically to platform camp these sorts of players. It is significantly harder for them to deal with a player hopping around on the platforms (always having double jump etc). Forces them to play significantly differently since you are always a drop down threat in between their projectile lag and they aren't pressuring your shield or jumps nearly as much.
 

FartyParty

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#7
Stage has a huge impact on this as well. I always play with battlefield specifically to platform camp these sorts of players. It is significantly harder for them to deal with a player hopping around on the platforms (always having double jump etc). Forces them to play significantly differently since you are always a drop down threat in between their projectile lag and they aren't pressuring your shield or jumps nearly as much.
I see ppl say this a lot, and it's another thing that confuses me a bit. The platforms do nothing for me but lead to me either getting owned from below or getting in the way when I try to attack from above. I fare much better on omega.
 

MG_3989

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#8
On battlefield stages I have very little trouble against campers and zoners because I can either make them come to me or drop down in their face while they’re randomly shooting off projectiles. Honestly this is gonna sound weird but one of the zoners that gives me the most trouble is Mii Gunner and idk why, something about their kit. Other than that Ike and Cloud can give me trouble because they outrange and outspace me if they’re a good player. Inkling can be annoying too. I think Ness would give me trouble if I wasn’t a Ness main so I always know what he’s trying to do but a good Ness player has the kit to give marthcina a lot of trouble if they’re not patient. Also a good Wolf player can give me trouble because he’s like Marth and Lucina with a gun
 
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Xquirtle

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#9
I see ppl say this a lot, and it's another thing that confuses me a bit. The platforms do nothing for me but lead to me either getting owned from below or getting in the way when I try to attack from above. I fare much better on omega.
You definitely can't let them get below you. There's really no great options out of shield on a platform with them right underneath you. Don't think of it like standing there until they run up to you and then you try to swing. The platforms are a place that you can be where their projectiles don't force you to jump, shield, or dodge unless they actually move their character. You can sort of opt out of their game plan and see how they respond. Sometimes they just don't know how to even play their character and they just rely on mashing B moves.

For example, i do this to little macs all the time and its hilarious. They have literally no way to deal with a Squirtle jumping around on battlefield platforms. they will start to try and predict my movement with up-b's or his turd aerials that are easy to punish. Not that hes a projectile camper, but its a good example of platform abuse.

Anyway, i play Luci quite a bit and my favorite plays off of platform camps are to run off the side of a lower platform as they approach or try to run under and bair nair or fair. can also drop thru and up air if they are trying to come at you from the side. Also, Lucis up B is soooo good with platforms. you can mash it out of combos and shield and land safely on the platforms above.
 

Nagol

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#10
:ultrob: - The top can be really annoying and trying to close stocks on him can be frustrating as he zone's you out and can be difficult to edge guard.
:ultsquirtle:/(:ultpokemontrainerf::ultpokemontrainer:) - Squirtle is just really good at being a low profile combo character. Messing up against him leads to a lot of percent but overall he isn't that bad of a match up. It's when you mess up and take a lot of percent only for them to swap does the match turn less advantageous.
:ultsimon::ultrichter: - They either wall me out with projectiles or lose center stage and have no idea what to do. Only get's worse for maps like battlefield since being under a platform can help make options more predictable.
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: - Similar to belmonts these players either are the best projectile and tilt using players in the game or they are just bad and running away all match. Either way it's a game I know that I will be taking a lot of percent because I just want to end it quickly.

Any player who plays a slow campy game is usually the death of me. I really hate when the pace of the game slows down and I have to wait for an opening to punish them.

Honorable mentions:
:ultpichu::ultpikachu: - similar to squirtle where mistakes lead to big percent punishes and their low profile is annoying to approach. The upside is that they are easier to kill if you can land punishes and since there is only one version you can dial in how they play the character much more easily.
 

Crissaegrim

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#11
:ultinkling: gives me trouble. She's small, has the grenade, can't really edgeguard her and roller is faster than you'd might think.
 

Eggimannd

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#12
2) Jigglypuff - When I go up against a good Jigglypuff I just can't hit them with any consistency. They're small, they short hop around like crazy, and most of their moves come out quickly.
Lol you should be absolutely crushing jigglypuff with how broken lucina is
 

FartyParty

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#13
Lol you should be absolutely crushing jigglypuff with how broken lucina is
If I made this thread fresh today, she would not be on the list. Today, the list is:

Wolf - Maybe coincidence keeps matching me with well above average Wolf players, but I just can't track this character's movement. Losing probably 80% vs Wolf recently.
Rob - Yeah, still have trouble with Rob. Same as before, Rob mains seem to be universally better Smash players than me. I've gotten a little better at this matchup from the original post, but still having problems.
Dark Pit - Those arrows are deadly when used properly and can be fired off during recovery challenging edge guards. I need to get better at edge guarding low to improve against Pit. Dark Pit is a marginally bigger challenge than regular Pit for whatever reason.
 

Downshift

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#14
I see ppl say this a lot, and it's another thing that confuses me a bit. The platforms do nothing for me but lead to me either getting owned from below or getting in the way when I try to attack from above. I fare much better on omega.
Yeah I have the same issue.

I mean, like Xsquirtle said, you can just keep hopping around on the platforms, but stuff like Simon's axe, Samus' homing missiles, Pit's arrows, Links bombs, etc can still be directed upwards to hit you up on platforms.
The real problem I have on Battlefields is that they just hide under the lower platforms and there's no way to approach or attack them with Lucina. With Omegas I can at least time a gap in their spam to rush in, take minor damage in order to get in position and cross them up, and then I can do some damage.
 

FartyParty

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#15
Yeah I have the same issue.

I mean, like Xsquirtle said, you can just keep hopping around on the platforms, but stuff like Simon's axe, Samus' homing missiles, Pit's arrows, Links bombs, etc can still be directed upwards to hit you up on platforms.
The real problem I have on Battlefields is that they just hide under the lower platforms and there's no way to approach or attack them with Lucina. With Omegas I can at least time a gap in their spam to rush in, take minor damage in order to get in position and cross them up, and then I can do some damage.
I've gotten better at dealing with projectiles on battlefield to the point where certain characters I'd much rather face on there than on omega. Like, Dark Pit is a character I want nothing to do with on omega stages; I get wrecked every time. But on battlefield I can hold my own with a Dark Pit player much better. In contrast, I'm still much better at dealing with K. Rool's or the Belmonts' projectiles on omega stages.
 

MG_3989

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#16
If I made this thread fresh today, she would not be on the list. Today, the list is:

Wolf - Maybe coincidence keeps matching me with well above average Wolf players, but I just can't track this character's movement. Losing probably 80% vs Wolf recently.
Rob - Yeah, still have trouble with Rob. Same as before, Rob mains seem to be universally better Smash players than me. I've gotten a little better at this matchup from the original post, but still having problems.
Dark Pit - Those arrows are deadly when used properly and can be fired off during recovery challenging edge guards. I need to get better at edge guarding low to improve against Pit. Dark Pit is a marginally bigger challenge than regular Pit for whatever reason.
It’s weird I literally don’t think I’ve ever been matched up with even a below average Wolf. Every Wolf player I get matched up with online is at least above average if not good at the game
 

FartyParty

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#17
It’s weird I literally don’t think I’ve ever been matched up with even a below average Wolf. Every Wolf player I get matched up with online is at least above average if not good at the game
So it's not just me then experiencing that!!
 

Wiley

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#19
:ultwolf:Wolf is a really rough m/u for me at the moment. If anyone has any work arounds I’m game to listen and think about it. I feel like I have to outplay the player so heavily and laser is so abusable if they want to go that route. Also... edgeguarding them is not nearly as easy as fox/Falco. You basically need a wolf to be far enough out to expend a double jump- then it’s kind of a free edge guard.

:ultmegaman: And I get super stressed out by good megamans who lemon/leaf spam... I’m pretty good at edgeguarding them- just the neutral is so toxic and not fun. Not unbeatable- but not enjoyable.

:ultsamus::ultdarksamus:I obliterate the samus duo with Lucina so i find this odd that you guys struggle there (I do have the highest gsp dark samus I’ve seen so far so I know her quite well heh) Lucina should win the matchup as long as you don’t rush things and bait at mid range and then juggle/edgeguard. When a samus starts bomb recovering it’s really difficult for them to mixup that much so just keep swatting them out and then winning neutral. AND DONT OVER JUMP. If you find yourself get hit by their F-air even once just stop jumping, or work around it. Projectile into F-air is super common Samus bnb and it will get you killed.
 

FartyParty

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#20
My current problem points are now:

Pokemon Trainer - Squirtle is possibly the hardest to hit character in the game, up there with Pichu, but the real trouble here is Ivysaur. Ivysaur's hitboxes are ridiculous. All of them. And the vines have such good range for grabbing the ledge. Charizard is not bad, but for some inexplicable reason I cannot avoid a flare blitz for the life of me. It's such a telegraphed move, I try to do Lucina's counter soon as I hear the roar, but I still get hit by it more often than not and I frequently forget it's an option when I have them offstage.

DeDeDe - This is a character where the difference between the average player and good players is more noticeable to me than others so now that I'm pretty solid and getting matched with higher quality opponents, D3 has started to give me issues. Between flying ability, Gordos, neutral b, and the splash damage when up b lands on stage, I have huge trouble edge guarding and ledge trapping D3. I've also encountered some D3 players who ledge trap by holding down special and just waiting until the opponent makes a move, and I have trouble getting around this to get back on stage since D3 is so large. One player even caught me off guard completely by coming off stage with the down special. This is especially problematic if it's an omega stage or another without platforms near the ledges.
 
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Flowen231

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#22
:ultwolf:Wolf is a really rough m/u for me at the moment. If anyone has any work arounds I’m game to listen and think about it. I feel like I have to outplay the player so heavily and laser is so abusable if they want to go that route. Also... edgeguarding them is not nearly as easy as fox/Falco. You basically need a wolf to be far enough out to expend a double jump- then it’s kind of a free edge guard.

:ultmegaman: And I get super stressed out by good megamans who lemon/leaf spam... I’m pretty good at edgeguarding them- just the neutral is so toxic and not fun. Not unbeatable- but not enjoyable.

:ultsamus::ultdarksamus:I obliterate the samus duo with Lucina so i find this odd that you guys struggle there (I do have the highest gsp dark samus I’ve seen so far so I know her quite well heh) Lucina should win the matchup as long as you don’t rush things and bait at mid range and then juggle/edgeguard. When a samus starts bomb recovering it’s really difficult for them to mixup that much so just keep swatting them out and then winning neutral. AND DONT OVER JUMP. If you find yourself get hit by their F-air even once just stop jumping, or work around it. Projectile into F-air is super common Samus bnb and it will get you killed.

I have a secondary Dsam myself, it gets alot easier when you know key points to overwhelm them ;p.

As for wolf and mega though:

My bff has a strong wolf secondary so I know the pain there. This is my best advice: Focus on the edgeguards, and make them fast, hard, and continuous. Generally speaking you have 3 main ways to get him.

Scenario 1: You hit him offstage, hes forced to burn his second jump to survive: Get to him as fast as possible and Fair. The closer he is to the stage the better he can mix up his method of recovery, you want to get him in a position where he can only use his up B or side B. With a little practice both options are reactable and give you just enough time to get him. Again, this method is dependent on how fast you can move yourself offstage, the farther he is the more time you give yourself to intercept.

Scenario 2: You get him offstage but he does not have to burn his jump. This one is a bit trickier but it has more or less the same implications; The farther he is from the stage, the more time you have to punish. Jump into side B and up B are still reactable. Its harder because you have to react to when he jumps but your game plan is still the same.

These two scenarios are pretty consistent if the wolf player understands that you out-range him. Most good wolfs will avoid retaliation as you could outspace it. If the wolf does consistently retaliate though, know that with your range, that exchange is always in your favor.

Scenario 3: He goes low and uses up B. This scenario really only happens if you're a bit slow to run offstage. Best way to deal with it is with a stage spike at untechable percents, or by dropping down with a blast-zone-facing counter. Easiest way to do it without accidentally grabbing the ledge is with a backwards jump Bair. Wolf must burn his jump to get in this position, so if you're successful and the counter lands low enough to the point where he won't grab ledge before he gets hit, its a free stock.

Its going to be harder to pull off online of course, but with a bit of muscle memory you got this. Getting wolf offstage though... That's the real challenge lol. My best advice is to stay patient, don't be afraid to camp if you have the lead since wolf approaching you is much easier to deal with. Your patient play will wear on his nerves as much as he does yours when he backs off, wolf approaching isn't anywhere near as threatening as when you're going to him, and lasers are much easier to avoid when you aren't trying to go in.

As for megaman: My BFF is picking him up, so I don't have as much but here's what I got lol: Try full hopping as a mixup. As long as you aren't directly above him the worst he can do is anti air with neutral B. Try to catch metal blades in your dash ins. If you sh Nair catch one and throw it back asap, you create some pressure that you can use to ease your way in. And finally, and this is KEY (at least in my games lol). Once you do get in, don't go for the smother right away. Megaman has hella good zone breakers in this game (dtilt, pellets, mega upper if he reads you, fair, bair or just lolnope upb) and its not hard for him to catch you overextending. You want to stay far enough to be out of zone breaker range, but close enough to dodge and whif punish whatever he wants to throw out. Once I get my chance I just try to extend my juggle as long as possible to make up for the damage I took going in, maybe get a nice frame trap. This one is by far my shakiest of the two though, I had a lot of experience with mega in smash 4 but I mained rosa and only secondaried marcena so.... chit happens lol.
 
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Wiley

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#23
Flowen231 Flowen231 Ahh! I’m sorry I wrote you a thank you post and it didn’t send. Thanks for your involved response. Solid points and it reinforced my defensive focus in the wolf matchup and I feel way better against them at this point.

I actually think samus has a lot of advantages in the matchup so I don’t mean to make it sound like it’s easy.

I’ve gotten over my demons with wolf and feel much better in the MU

My biggest struggle is now Inkling
:ultinkling:

Any advice?

They can edgeguard us
We can’t camp them we can’t hard approach them

It just feels like a terrible matchup for us. Anyone with top level inkling counterplay?

I can handle roller spammers and low level stuff but I’m talking about tournament/highest gsp level.
 
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Flowen231

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#24
No worries, appreciation was shown in the like ;p.

Inkling is actually a complete mystery to me, I havent fought any good ones, ever so I don't really have any solid points on this one. We can theory craft though. I have to be more familiar with the character myself though so I'll pick him up for a few first to 5s next time I have a session with my usual group.

Here's what I think we should work out though: Getting inkling to waste ink, coming up with methods to avoid getting mixed up by the dash dance, edge trapping and finding our ideal distance were we can poke without overextending.

The issue with ink is that if inkling hits us with any ink, we lose whether we wait for it to evaporate or not. If we play it safe they can just refill, and our goal should be to catch inkling without it as we have the advantage when they can't roller, splat bomb, or neutral B to keep our approaches in check.

The dash dance is it's own can of worms tbh, inkling's dash dance low profiles like all hell get out, it looks like their roll, and it really doesn't telegraph what the player wants to do, best counter play is punishing unnecessary movement but this counter play relies on the opponent moving for the sake of just moving, hence, not a good player.

Range is pretty self explanatory when it comes to who we main, problem is that the two points above threaten pretty much everything that marcina likes to do in a typical matchup. Overcoming the first two is key when learning this part of the match up.

Edge trapping is my advantage state plan because you are right about the edge guard here though. Its hard to hit the up B due to how low they can go, their launch hitbox can pretty much insta kill us if we edge guard wrong, and unless we blast zone them they can always come back thanks to up B's range and infinite roller jumps. Maybe going out with a Fair could be a good mix up if you condition your opponent to think that you're never going to jump out, but I think the big money maker is going to be keeping them from accessing their tools for as long as possible similar to how you don't let olimar get pikmin if he doesn't have any, or how you always focus on killing luma ASAP whenever he respawns.

Some things I have picked up from the inklings I have fought though:

Splat bomb explodes on impact, but it bounces off of shield and counter (without activating it), so blocking isn't a good idea as it creates more pressure for you. Splat bomb can also ink you even if it doesn't deal any damage, it's ink range is a bit larger than it's hitbox so I don't think micro-spacing is a particularly good idea.

Chrom can 2 frame inkling with down tilt. Based on what the community as a whole knows about inkling's magnet up B, its pretty unreliable and that hitbox may not even be shared by lucina.

Thats just putting basic thoughts into words though, I don't really know much though, will test and I'll be back to evolve my theory.
 
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Wiley

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#25
Yeah it’s neutral that drives me nuts. I love pace setting with Lucina and you just can’t here. It just seems like one guessing game after the next with their mobility and kit full of options and they’re the one’s calling the shots. Especially if they focus jabs early stock as their bnb because it’s surprisingly good payout for a low stress execution.

Playing against the roller risk at mid-higher % is a risk in itself because then they can breathe and dash dance or just call the shots when neutral is reset... but you have to because it’s that strong.

I want to get as good as I can vs them with Lucina because she’s so enjoyable to play for me, but I’m not ruling out one of my other mains if we can’t lab enough workaround. My samus/fox have a lot less trouble with them lol.

I agree about taking advantage of their refill state but Inkling seems to remain far more threatening without ammo than solomar, sopo, rosa-no-luma as they still have access to their hoo hah window and they can still use many “get off me” moves for a quick ink dunk. And if you’re inked even the basic attacks rocket your percent up whether they’re empty or not.

And there’s no way to force a neutral where they absolutely have to spend ink other than guaranteed applications like forward throw and jab and reserving bombs for %/stock-advantage or edgeguarding mixups and pressure.

It’s not the average inkling that troubles me. If they’re not abusing their character i think we do well enough with out sword range and dodging/punishing roller... but it’s the ultra slippery players who’ve mastered the early meta.

I’ll keep training and labbing though.
 
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#26
I have a feeling that :ultwolf: is actually a bad matchup for us. Laser forces an approach and is just...hard to punish from what I'm seeing. Essentially forces some jumps and then punishes landings. It's a doable matchup if you can get him offstage, but onstage feels skewed in his favor.
I need to test out more anti-laser stuff such as shield / parry approach, etc.

:ultmegaman: I don't think is that bad tbh. Lemon spam is a thing but is workable. He naturally kind of has an issue dealing with people 45 degrees above him, which Lucina can live in that space. You have to work around pokes and good neutral, but Lucy's damage output is MUCH better than Mega's, so you don't have to hit as often to keep up. Control your spacing around him and learn the edgeguard / recovery game (both chars are good at both), and I think she takes it.
Also btw, you can punish leaf shield on block since he HAS to throw it, which is fairly laggy. If you see leaves, shield it.
For reference, I was a Mega main in 4, and one of my good friends is a former PR player in SC and contender in FL as Megaman.
 
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Vipermoon

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#27
I find that we don't lose to Wolf. He's not easy, but so far I've yet to lose to one in bracket. And I fought a couple of good ones. We can keep up with his damage and we have the potential to kill just as early as he does, including edgeguards.
 

Flowen231

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#28
Yeah it’s neutral that drives me nuts. I love pace setting with Lucina and you just can’t here. It just seems like one guessing game after the next with their mobility and kit full of options and they’re the one’s calling the shots. Especially if they focus jabs early stock as their bnb because it’s surprisingly good payout for a low stress execution.

Playing against the roller risk at mid-higher % is a risk in itself because then they can breathe and dash dance or just call the shots when neutral is reset... but you have to because it’s that strong.

I want to get as good as I can vs them with Lucina because she’s so enjoyable to play for me, but I’m not ruling out one of my other mains if we can’t lab enough workaround. My samus/fox have a lot less trouble with them lol.

I agree about taking advantage of their refill state but Inkling seems to remain far more threatening without ammo than solomar, sopo, rosa-no-luma as they still have access to their hoo hah window and they can still use many “get off me” moves for a quick ink dunk. And if you’re inked even the basic attacks rocket your percent up whether they’re empty or not.

And there’s no way to force a neutral where they absolutely have to spend ink other than guaranteed applications like forward throw and jab and reserving bombs for %/stock-advantage or edgeguarding mixups and pressure.

It’s not the average inkling that troubles me. If they’re not abusing their character i think we do well enough with out sword range and dodging/punishing roller... but it’s the ultra slippery players who’ve mastered the early meta.

I’ll keep training and labbing though.
I just got home from my day of playing as and vs inkiling with my buddy and I noticed a few things that I was able to exploit right away.

Lucina can crouch run right under a max charged splat bomb at the apex of it's trajectory, and it lets you approach similar to how some people would run under yoshi eggs in smash 4.

Edge guarding inkling isn't as hard as I originally thought Similar to wolf, the faster you go off the easier it is to do, but its more or less the same deal. With a bit of practice me and my bud were able to react to the up B, and roller jumps were actually not that hard to deal with if you manage to go for them early enough. Theres definitely a point where you should not go out when they do it, but if you manage to get there asap a fair will interrupt roller fairly consistently and straight up kill most of the time. If I can't edge guard without having inkling between me and the stage I generally fall back to edge trap at that point, not worth risking the up B hitbox.

And my final observation is that inkling doesn't have the easiest time getting out of a juggle. Getting them there in neutral isn't the easiest thing but once you got'em you got'em.

Will keep testing the MU though, I'm sure there's tons more to learn, consider and counterplay on both sides of the match up.

EDIT: Forgot to mention this when I just got home lol. But there were a few times where one of us would go in for a dancing blade, and the other player used inkling's neutral B as a keep away. During one of those times I managed to catch inkling with the very tip of dancing blade forward 4. I don't think its too practical, but situational awareness makes a good player, and if you ever think its worth the possibility is there.
 
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Wiley

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MrWiley
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Yeah I feel like we can edgeguard them fairly well, and they can edgeguard us fairly well too... I feel fairly balanced off stage with them in our respective advantage states though they have better recovery options overall in disadvantage.

Yes, juggling them and closing with an off stage send is definitely ideal.

And from my recent matches it’s definitely a camping game. Having to play around jab really makes for tentative play but we do well on hit.

I don’t face splat bomb consistently in neutral. I feel like most good inkling players reserve that option for zoning slow characters and big bodies or when it’s guarenteed safe or for ledge pressure.

I played as them a bunch recently to lab counterplay which helped. I think the matchup is winnable it’s just a mighty pain- frankly I think inklings are a pain for anyone without a decent low hitting projectile. And Roller is pretty tilting by itself lol


I’ve done most my online testing on battlefield- I wonder who the platforms help more... they do extend our juggles and sharking tech chases, but they also give them juggles and roller havens and extra projectile angles.
 
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