Falcon vs Ylink, or Dr. Mario?

[FlanWielder]

does he have an advantage to these characters? my friend said that he's a counter, but im not so sure...

 

[Goldkirby]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025


Youl should use search before you make threads...

 

[Sars_Pirate]

:/

It's more worth discussing the matchups. At least then people can understand the matchup and make a judgment rather than blindly following what the chart says.

 

[technomancer]

That chart can be kinda wack too.

Falcon vs. Doc is fairly even, if maybe a slight bit in Falcon's advantage, but Doc can finish you pretty easily off the side. Falcon has good combos on Doc, but the reverse applies as well, and some matchup knowledge is required to win.

Falcon is a Ylink counter, even though Ylink has some good combos, spammage doesn't keep CF down, and Ylink doesn't really have a usable grab in the matchup to start his combos up, and CF does a good job of edgeguarding Ylink with his B-air and N-air off the stage and with edgehopped knees as well, and plus he's so light the knee just destroys him.

 

[FlanWielder]

well, as for the first time i played a Doc main, i couldn't figure out how to go about against the pill spamming, but i figured out that the nair works wonders on it. i also noticed how easy it is to be edgeguarded by a Doc.

Y.link, i don't have much trouble just because combo's are easy on him...

 

[Sinz]

Knee .

 

[Sars_Pirate]

Yeah, Doc is hard to play against at first since the usual aggressive rush style most Falcons like to play with don't work, and you have to dashdance for openings and to wait for unforced errors also while trying to keep the tempo of the game discomfortingly quick for the Doc player. :/ As for being edgeguarded, mach dash it and get up as high as possible and recover. >_>

 

[Cure]

falcon is amazing
young link is easy to combo, although you need to watch out for the pill spamming with your nair and make sure to play it steady and dont rush in, wait for an opening. try to mindgame at the edge so you wont get caped too

 

[TheManaLord]

Falcon destroys Y Link, projectile spamming is too slow to stop you.


Dr Mario is slightly harder, you can still run through the pills or raptor boost through, they're only slightly more annoying. The only other thing to watch out for is his edgeguarding v you.


Otherwise, they are both obliterated by knee then simple edgeguarding.

 

[Marth101]

Actually, in my opinion, Doc can be frustratingly hard to edgeguard well. Especially if, when he's knocked off the stage, the first thing he does is use his second jump and throw two pills. Essentially if you dont time your ledge stall right (dropping off the ledge and jumping back on it) The pill will hit you and then Doc is in the perfect position to up-b spike you. Also, if the doc knows what he's doing, he'll snap sweetspot, and what i mean by that is he'll use docs over-elongated ledge grab-range to up-b right under it, and then snap on the ledge. So if you dont time the edgehog right, the ridiculous hit box and priority will get you. It also makes him impossible to hit if he does this right, although there are exceptions with moves with hitboxes that go under the stage (I.E. the stomp, or falco's spike etc.). But then he can just tech those moves that are simple enough to tech anyway, doing the whole procedure again.
Comboing Doc can also be frustrating, although extremely easy to do up air combo if he DI's your downthrow wrong. If he DI's down and away, its virtually impossible to do anything. The best you can do is an extremely delayed shffl'd uair in hopes of popping him up off the ground. So he can literally force you to try to tech chase, in which case he could just stop your grab combo right there and turn it around, or run away and pill spam.
I agree with technomancer about needing knowledge of your opponent and knowing what he can pull off. My person that I mostly play smash with to practice (eighteenspikes) mains doc, so after many games with him, I know that he can forward throw me and bair me 3 times for the kill, now I'm more cautious when playing on the ledge with him. So overall just keep in mind that Doc can turn it around at anytime if you make a mistake, so try your hardest not to raptor boost him at all (sometimes I forget falcon has that move because I never use it on doc, its just too easy for him to beat). Ofcourse the exception is if you techchase him with it, but in my opinion grabbing yields better effects (D-throw combos).

So, yes, doc is hard, but just dashdance around, throw out some nairs, and wait till he messes up to either grab him or nair him. But dont be reckless.


Ok, I hope I helped. I think I'm done with my lecture now on the Doc vs Falcon matchup.

 

[TheManaLord]

^ you can tech off the stage when he goes for up b spike

^ edgehog timing doesnt need perfect, just hit r when you hear/see the upstart for up b

^ right b's to enlongate away/down di's

 

[Dogysamich]

I saw this thread and fell out of my chair laughing.

Doc? Hard for Captain Falcon?

Oh dear god please tell me what im doing wrong cause i get ***** by CapFal.

 

[PB&J]

dogy..u know every body doesn't play good cfalcon's thats probably y they have a problem with littel old doc...lol...there's got to be a noob falcon if he has problems...tell them what gawes told u don't get hit...ur to funny dogy

 

[Dogysamich]

dogy..u know every body doesn't play good cfalcon's thats probably y they have a problem with littel old doc...lol...there's got to be a noob falcon if he has problems...tell them what gawes told u don't get hit...ur to funny dogy

See, that's the problem. CapFal CAN afford to get hit. I mean what's doc gunna do? Cause as soon as he starts tryin to combo - RANDOM KNEE -> GRAB -> THROW -> TECHCHASE STOMP -> U.AIR -> U.AIR -> U.AIR -> TIGER KNEEEEEEEEEEEE

It's like Nintendo wanted to be mean and put a Tekken character in the game.

___________________

But yeah, if you're having problems vs doc, i can give you a brief overview by saying space your attacks well and keep moving. Aside from doc's pills, he has no real range whatsoever, and CapFal is fast enough to attack and move out of range before doc can miss.

Just dont get your Raptor Boost (whatever it's called) blocked. Actually, you can get it blocked, just dont get it spot dodged.

Same with ground falcon kicks, if you use those. Once you get Doc in the air, he's usually done, unless you're slow on your combos and he can get a u.air or up+b out. If he's resorting to up+b's to break your combos, those; he cant really retailate afterwards, so keep pressuring him.

 

[eighteenspikes]

I like how Marth101 makes the only intelligent post in the thread and it gets ripped apart.

^ you can tech off the stage when he goes for up b spike

^ edgehog timing doesnt need perfect, just hit r when you hear/see the upstart for up b

^ right b's to enlongate away/down di's

^ that puts you in prime edgeguarding position for doc

^ in all but the furthest recovery situations, Doc's pills or tornado stall makes basic edgehogging in no way as simple as you describe

^ missing a raptor boost = grab = HUGE punishment

Captain Falcon can not afford to be grabbed!

 

[FlanWielder]

okay, so last time i played him, i 2 and 3 stocked him over and over... I'm no n00b when it comes to falcon, only match-ups... my tech-skills really good, i just don't have a lot of experience playing certain characters...

 

[maelstrom218]

It's a pretty even matchup, but CF has the edge. Only because his combos are as solid as Doc's, but CF has the added benefit of being able to punish a lot more severely than Doc can. A predictable Doc who makes even the slightest mistake ends up getting combo'd and knee'd.

Doc doesn't rely so much on outright punishment -> KOs as Falcon does, mostly because his edgeguarding is just too good in this matchup.

The way I see it, Falcon always has the upperhand speed-wise (makes pills a lot less formidable since he can maneuver around them better than most can), and range-wise (if Falcon's underneath Doc, Doc is screwed because of the u-air; n-air for spacing is also godly).

The only time Falcon's ever in an unfavorable situation is if he's off the stage, or if he gets grabbed, just like 18spikes said. Being off the stage at any time basically amounts to a KO so long as the Doc knows what he's doing. And if Falcon's grabbed, it's a free 30-60% damage spree + KO opportunity for Doc, what with his chaingrabbing and u-air combos.

 

[TheManaLord]

I like how Marth101 makes the only intelligent post in the thread and it gets ripped apart.



^ that puts you in prime edgeguarding position for doc

^ in all but the furthest recovery situations, Doc's pills or tornado stall makes basic edgehogging in no way as simple as you describe

^ missing a raptor boost = grab = HUGE punishment

Captain Falcon can not afford to be grabbed!

ya whats your point? everything leads to somethin, somethin never leads to nothin. u just gotta do the shiz to get results, nothing ever works 100%, but if it works enuff then do wit it.

 

[eighteenspikes]

But neither edgehogging nor raptor boosts are that effective on Doc, compared to other means of keeping the opponent off the stage or starting combos.

 

[Gea]

Look at it this way. Doc has like no aerial priority over anything of Falcons, causing him to lose a massive amount of approach. Doc bascially has to rely on pills (very risky) and looking for openings of mistakes from the Falcon himself.

By the way, uptilt works wonders on Doc's recovering most of the time. You might trade hits but he is gone. Or reverse uairs... Or just knees. Once Doc is above you on stage you basically get free hits.

Its a pretty hard/lame match for Doc, in all honesty.

 

[technomancer]

Gea, that's actually backwards, Falcon has no aerial priority whatsoever except for in his upair, though most of his aerials can effectively eat pills. CF has to be very wary when approaching doc with anything but a back-air, because the N-air is so much faster, also pills and getting shielded or whatnot. CF's best opportunities come from spotting attacks while Doc is airborne, or from shielding an approach at the right time, so the best strategy for Doc is aggressive pill camping, to cramp Falcon's space and elicit mistakes, while for Doc, patience and anti-pills are the name of the game, and edge guarding is clutch (just steal his jump, or at least make him tech)

 

[alvin224]

yea i agree with dogy... im no pro and i really have no problem with with doc.... just keep on moving and keep him guessing... the best thing that you have is your speed... (doc is no slow poke) but as long as you keep him guessing you will get him in a spot where you can punish him.

with ylink i really dont play him much but same thing almost... keep moving so he just wastes time with the projectiles and get him in the air. then by that time you should just get him off the stage... which should be no problem because as long as you get him off far enough, you should be safe cause his recovery is not the best(very predictable)

 

[Gea]

Gea, that's actually backwards, Falcon has no aerial priority whatsoever except for in his upair, though most of his aerials can effectively eat pills. CF has to be very wary when approaching doc with anything but a back-air, because the N-air is so much faster, also pills and getting shielded or whatnot. CF's best opportunities come from spotting attacks while Doc is airborne, or from shielding an approach at the right time, so the best strategy for Doc is aggressive pill camping, to cramp Falcon's space and elicit mistakes, while for Doc, patience and anti-pills are the name of the game, and edge guarding is clutch (just steal his jump, or at least make him tech)

Okay, let me rephrase that. Doc has very little in terms of aerial range/approach on Falcon. All Doc really has is wall of bairs (which Falcon can just wait and then punish) or sex kick, which can't really be used to approach so much as disrupt.

Its considered in Falcon's favor for a good reason... and honestly most characters CAN edgeguard Falcon no problem, so I wouldn't consider it a strength for Falcon. Though I guess this one is once again more stage dependant than straightfoward.

And while pills can be effective in slowing a Falcon down or disrupting, shooting pills has alot of lag. Shoot one at the wrong moment and you eat a knee... and Falcon isn't exactly bad at edgeguarding Doc because of his horrible recovery.