Falco Matchup Spread Discussions/Suggestion's Week 3 : Mewtwo, Squirtle, Yoshi

[Lizalfos]

Ike and Roy are both combo food for falco. Ike doesn't have the same mobility to deal with lasers as Roy does, but he can wall you out a lot harder. both characters have brutal punish games on falco, falco has brutal punish games on them. Roughly even.

No idea for Wolf, I have like 1 wolf in my region and he's significantly better than me. I hear it's basically even though.

Does Falco care about walls though?
Lasers force Ike to commit to pressuring you.
Roy has to work with less neutral tools than Marth and gets combo'd harder. Falco's favor.

If Fox-Falco is even I would guess Wolf-Falco is Falco's Favor.
Wolf's grab game isn't as good as Fox's and neither is his shine and Falco essentially just does everything Wolf does better.

 

[pkblaze]

Wolf's grab game is arguably better than foxes. He has an upthrow chaingrab on spacies and Bthrow/Dthrow are like weird sheik-esque followup/tech chase throws. He can act around lasers like any character with a good dash dance. The main difference is that his punish game outside of upthrow chain grabs (which I can't comment on the difficulty of) is less consistent but with more explosive potential (read: wolf flash DI traps.) His neutral game is worse. Sorta sheik-esque with AC fairs, less safe aerial approaches cuz he has no sex kicks.


Falco cares about walls when the walls are as big as Ike's. Even in melee he has to whiff punish puff a lot, he can't just approach. Ike's got a lot of nair and bair walling bull**** that can make it tricky for falco to get in, and then he 0-deaths you. Ike on flat stages is worse than marth in terms of how hard he punishes falco. He's also really weird to edgeguard, but that's probs just cuz his recovery isn't as figured out yet.

Roy is Marth with slightly worse range and neutral and way better punish tools. Dtilt to kill move instead of dtilt to positional advantage. his edgeguarding is worse but his onstage conversions are better. He's also significantly more difficult to edgeguard cuz of the nature of his upB. At worst this one's 55-45 falco's favor.

If you want numbers for the others, 55-45 at worst for falco vs wolf, 60-40 for falco-ike. I think they're closer to even than those numbers though, and most mains of those characters will tell you their falco MU is basically even.

 

[PieSandwich]

My personal view is that Wolf wins the Falco MU. Don't ask me to explain it, but take it from a Wolf main, I've played multiple Foxes with my Wolf and am undefeated. That MU is slightly in Wolf's favor.
It's the exact same for Falco.
Done a bit of studying on the MU to verify this, and from what I can tell, Wolf has a slight advantage, a +1, on Wolf, giving Falco a -1, 55-45, Wolf's favor.
Just my views though.

 

[Lizalfos]

My personal view is that Wolf wins the Falco MU. Don't ask me to explain it, but take it from a Wolf main, I've played multiple Foxes with my Wolf and am undefeated. That MU is slightly in Wolf's favor.
It's the exact same for Falco.
Done a bit of studying on the MU to verify this, and from what I can tell, Wolf has a slight advantage, a +1, on Wolf, giving Falco a -1, 55-45, Wolf's favor.
Just my views though.

You really need to explain this. Falco and Fox can CC wolf's shine.
That is a big advantage for every stock.

Not sure what Falco's bair does to Wolf, but I'm assuming it out spaces him.

Wolf is worse shine worse laser worse Nair worse Spacie imo, but I don't know all that much about wolf, so I'm probably missing the bigger picture.

 

[PieSandwich]

You really need to explain this. Falco and Fox can CC wolf's shine.

I mean, I can't really explain it.
I'm just going off of my personal experience against Falco and Fox people from tourneys. I guess I'm kind of factoring in my level of mindgames and playstyle, so yeah.
Also, CCing isn't everything. It won't always be cancelled, but still, using mixups instead of just shine spamming is useful to get past that.

 

[Lizalfos]

I mean, I can't really explain it.
I'm just going off of my personal experience against Falco and Fox people from tourneys. I guess I'm kind of factoring in my level of mindgames and playstyle, so yeah.
Also, CCing isn't everything. It won't always be cancelled, but still, using mixups instead of just shine spamming is useful to get past that.

I added to my previous post. Accidentally submitted it early.

Wolf probably escapes pillars b/c of his fall speed.

 

[PieSandwich]

I added to my previous post. Accidentally submitted it early.

Wolf probably escapes pillars b/c of his fall speed.

Just read your post all the way.
You do have a pretty solid point.
I believe you're right on pillaring.
Again, it's just my opinion that Wolf is better.
The reason I rated them so closely is that they're close to even. After considering, I believe that it is still either 55-45 or 50-50.
Thanks for pointing that stuff out.

 

[pkblaze]

What? Fox can be hard to pillar at low percent so you just waveshine him 3 times and then convert to pillar combos.

Wolf shouldn't be that much different.

 

[Lizalfos]

What? Fox can be hard to pillar at low percent so you just waveshine him 3 times and then convert to pillar combos.

Wolf shouldn't be that much different.

I meant at higher percentage because he falls faster than Falco and can tech away.

 

[pkblaze]

It's not like Falco doesn't need to worry about that vs other spacies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJs3aMlZNWM

Axe does fine in terms of punish game. Falco has punish answers to spacies trying to tech.

 

[Lizalfos]

It's not like Falco doesn't need to worry about that vs other spacies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJs3aMlZNWM

Axe does fine in terms of punish game. Falco has punish answers to spacies trying to tech.

Well my overall point was that Wolf might get longer, less escapable combos. I don't play wolf, I'm just trying to think of reasons why it is even or Wolf's favor.

 

[pkblaze]

They both have so many tools to answer each other that it's anywhere in between 55-45 in one direction or the other. And debating that is basically the same as debating Falco-Fox in melee, where differences in opinion are probably tied to how much trouble somebody has with the matchup. And it's probably even, where the better player generally wins.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Reminder everyone, the wolf, Ike, and our boy roy discussions are coming to an end. So far it seems most people agree that Falco has an slight advantage against roy and ike, while having a mostly even matchup against wolf. For people who haven't posted their thoughts you have till Saturday to post your thoughts on the matchups for the following three characters and then we move on to week 2. Week 2 will be the melee top tiers part 1 featuring: Fox , Sheik , and Marth. Are the match ups the same as in melee, or is it clear that things have changed?

Edit: week 2 has been changed to , , and instead since the falco vs fox/sheik/marth matchups in pm are mostly identical to their melee counter part matchups. plus I'm worried someone will just post a melee mu chart and call it a waste. Week 2 starts on sunday

 

[Lizalfos]

Inb4 somebody ctrl + Vs a Melee matchup thread from 2007 and ctrl + Cs it here next week. I think there is no argument on those chars. At least throw in Squirtle or Ivy as a curveball.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Inb4 somebody ctrl + Vs a Melee matchup thread from 2007 and ctrl + Cs it here next week. I think there is no argument on those chars. At least throw in Squirtle or Ivy as a curveball.

Yeah but alot has changed to the melee top tiers from their transition to pm such as sheik losing her down throw shenanigans, the physics difference, and character balance. imo i think the falco v fox/marth mu are no doubt the same as in melee but the sheik v falco matchup might have changed alot. some people might think differently though. also throwing in squirtle or ivy in their might break the whole 3 character per week rule.

 

[Lizalfos]

Yeah but alot has changed to the melee top tiers from their transition to pm such as sheik losing her down throw shenanigans, the physics difference, and character balance. imo i think the falco v fox/marth mu are no doubt the same as in melee but the sheik v falco matchup might have changed alot. some people might think differently though. also throwing in squirtle or ivy in their might break the whole 3 character per week rule.

Sheik just gets crapped on even harder. Spacies still don't get techchased THAT hard.

 

[Sir Tundra]

you know what on second thought maybe Week 2 should be , , and . I think the MU's for fox, marth, and sheik might be a bit too similar then they are at melee and would obviously be a waste of a week

 

[Lizalfos]

I know I've heard that Mario has a good spacies matchup.

To understand Lucas MU I'd have to break out debug mode. Maybe tomorrow.

Ivy is really interesting. Bair gimps are free, and she can certainly run to a platform and use bair to scare Falco away. I'd say Falco has the tools to win neutral, but Falco dies if he gets baired offstage.

Edit: Ivy mains say they win. I kinda see Ivy retreating a lot. I suppose lack of initiative makes it bad for Ivy, but if Ripple beats Westballs with a gimp reliant character, I could see it as 60-40 Falco and not that massive of a landslide. Ivy mains say that razorleaf sets up into a lot.

I bet Ivy needs Dreamland for this matchup. Live longer, platform camp bair, run away and retreating leaf.

 

[Sir Tundra]

The results are in for wolf, ike, and roy mu. Most people agreed that falco vs roy was slightly in falcos favor with an +1 or 55/45 mu amd Falco vs Ike being in falcos favor with a +2 60/40 mu. Falco vs Wolf has a 0 50/50 even since alot of people have pointed out that both can give trouble to the other much like the fox vs falco mu.

 

[Sir Tundra]

We now begin week 2 with ivysaur, Lucas, and Mario. These three characters were one of the best characters in the 3.0.2 build right behind Mewtwo and Pit. Have the nerfs hindered their performs or do these characters still have a fighting chance?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

We now begin week 2 with ivysaur, Lucas, and Mario. These three characters were one of the best characters in the 3.0.2 build right behind Mewtwo and Pit. Have the nerfs hindered their performs or do these characters still have a fighting chance?

idk so much about lucas
but the other 2 yes
ivy really cant do much vs spacies anymore
mario lost some things but did get some other things in return
the most notable loses was up b wall jump (can still be done but nearly as good) and fireballs.
his up b still retains the the invincibility so pressing his shield is not free

The results are in for wolf, ike, and roy mu. Most people agreed that falco vs roy was slightly in falcos favor with an +1 or 55/45 mu amd Falco vs Ike being in falcos favor with a +2 60/40 mu. Falco vs Wolf has a 0 50/50 even since alot of people have pointed out that both can give trouble to the other much like the fox vs falco mu.

Has there been any good falcos vs roy vodz? I only saw zach(lunchables) vs west and zach got stomped. I also think falco would at least have the mu against wolf, at least slightly in his favor b/c his neutral is better (laser, nair a bit more range) and wolf can never really win the laser game.

 

[Sir Tundra]

idk so much about lucas
but the other 2 yes
ivy really cant do much vs spacies anymore
mario lost some things but did get some other things in return
the most notable loses was up b wall jump (can still be done but nearly as good) and fireballs.
his up b still retains the the invincibility so pressing his shield is not free

Has there been any good falcos vs roy vodz? I only saw zach(lunchables) vs west and zach got stomped. I also think falco would at least have the mu against wolf, at least slightly in his favor b/c his neutral is better (laser, nair a bit more range) and wolf can never really win the laser game.

as of now I've been finding trouble finding good vidz of falco vs roy. As of the falco vs wolf mu, yeah wolfs neutral is slightly worse with the worse lasers, however he has a better punish game due to his amazing juggling capabilities and can easily take a stock by seting up a side b. it all comes down to stage picks and player skill really for this mu since they both have answers for each other.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Reminder: week two is almost at an end. Today is the last day to discuss about ivysaur, lucas, and mario before the results come in. week threes round up will be revealed tomorrow.

 

[Sir Tundra]

results are in mus for ivysaur, lucas, and mario.. +2 60/40 vs ivy, +2 60/40 vs lucas, and +1 55/45 vs mario

Week 3 will be ,, and

 

[TreK]

I'm late at the party it seems lol

I don't play Melee so I'm a bit clueless against Falco and just got 3 stocked by a player from my region I've never lost a set to before and always won pretty convincingly against. Like, I 2-3 stock his three main characters, Fox, Wolf and CF despite all of them being pretty bad matchups for Ivy, and Falco's like his 6th or 7th "for fun" character. It's ridiculous to be that clueless in a matchup lol.
Got any good VODs for Ivy vs Falco, advice and stuff ? Like, what stages to ban/CP, what to do in the neutral, how to deal with laser camping, laser approaches, shield pressure, pillar combos and stuff that people should know but I probably don't.

The only VOD of that matchup I've studied is JZ vs Westballz from the IaB that happened just before Aftershock. Here are the notes I took :
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...d-critique-thread.331684/page-7#post-18864772

I can and will CP DK for the time being, but I want to be able to go Ivy only for a whole tournament if possible. Playing several characters messes up with my consistency.

 

[Sir Tundra]

As of now I decided to maybe extended the , , discussion for an extra as of now seeing as their any input on these mostly being cause i forgot to edit the title last week my bad guys.

I'm late at the party it seems lol

I don't play Melee so I'm a bit clueless against Falco and just got 3 stocked by a player from my region I've never lost a set to before and always won pretty convincingly against. Like, I 2-3 stock his three main characters, Fox, Wolf and CF despite all of them being pretty bad matchups for Ivy, and Falco's like his 6th or 7th "for fun" character. It's ridiculous to be that clueless in a matchup lol.
Got any good VODs for Ivy vs Falco, advice and stuff ? Like, what stages to ban/CP, what to do in the neutral, how to deal with laser camping, laser approaches, shield pressure, pillar combos and stuff that people should know but I probably don't.

The only VOD of that matchup I've studied is JZ vs Westballz from the IaB that happened just before Aftershock. Here are the notes I took :
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...d-critique-thread.331684/page-7#post-18864772

I can and will CP DK for the time being, but I want to be able to go Ivy only for a whole tournament if possible. Playing several characters messes up with my consistency.

I think these videos might help:

These are all matches in pm 3.5 of falco vs ivysaur so these might help you with the mu if they don't then i apologize.

 

[Kneato]

Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has Falco winning)

+3:

+2:

+1:

0:

-1:

-2:

-3:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? (Edited for clarity)

This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.

 

[Kneato]

Whoops double post

 

[Deathrender]

I think the Mewtwo MU has Mewtwo with a large advantage. Powershielding is easy to accomplish and Mewtwo can gimp so easily off of back throw into hovering bair wall -> teleport to ledge and continue edgeguarding. From experience on both sides, Mewtwo is pretty hard to combo and your finisher is reduced to Fsmash or dair when the jump is wasted.

Mewtwo has another good kill confirm from up air strings into anti-air down B.

This is one of the few MUs that favor me playing aggressively as Mewtwo.

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

I always get the most confused when people report +3 vs Donkey Kong. Im operating under the assumption we're playing falco vs a DK who knows how to chain grab 0-death. I play the Falco-DK matchup with my buddy regularly, and I don't think either of us is a scrub. If I fail safe shield pressure, or mis-space anything, I get grabbed, and up throw chain grabbed to death 70% of the time. Do you guys not get absolutely bodied once you get grabbed by DK? I know the goal is to get gud, and not get grabbed, but thats a tall order against a character who if he guesses right and touches you, he has a good chance to grab follow-up.

Our matches typically result in me putting ~50% per combo on DK, and DK 0-death or gimping me regularly. Every other spacie my friend plays as DK gets equally bodied.

I gather that if you're perfect shield pressure into multishine grab good... then DK becomes a big body to combo, but if you mess up once, you're in trouble.

Also perhaps im making poor decisions in the counter-pick stage selection. Where should falco be taking DK to? Platforms are crucial to escape upthrow chaingrabs, but what do you guys like?

Edit: Heres a video to a match that I feels encapsulates what Falco v DK looks like for players who aren't at the very top. (Mind you I don't know exactly how good these two guys are anyway)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8eI8Tt-qbU

 

[X Riptide X]

Well, actually...

 

[X Riptide X]

I always get the most confused when people report +3 vs Donkey Kong. Im operating under the assumption we're playing falco vs a DK who knows how to chain grab 0-death. I play the Falco-DK matchup with my buddy regularly, and I don't think either of us is a scrub. If I fail safe shield pressure, or mis-space anything, I get grabbed, and up throw chain grabbed to death 70% of the time. Do you guys not get absolutely bodied once you get grabbed by DK? I know the goal is to get gud, and not get grabbed, but thats a tall order against a character who if he guesses right and touches you, he has a good chance to grab follow-up.

Our matches typically result in me putting ~50% per combo on DK, and DK 0-death or gimping me regularly. Every other spacie my friend plays as DK gets equally bodied.

I gather that if you're perfect shield pressure into multishine grab good... then DK becomes a big body to combo, but if you mess up once, you're in trouble.

Also perhaps im making poor decisions in the counter-pick stage selection. Where should falco be taking DK to? Platforms are crucial to escape upthrow chaingrabs, but what do you guys like?

Edit: Heres a video to a match that I feels encapsulates what Falco v DK looks like for players who aren't at the very top. (Mind you I don't know exactly how good these two guys are anyway)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8eI8Tt-qbU

Actually, I think your match is an example of skill gap as well as the matchup. Prem is nowhere near the level of a Falco like Westballz, while Thunderz is actually far and away the best DK in PM. Now, it's true that platforms can help combat up throw chains, but then they allow for easy tech punishes on DK's end because up air is another one of his bread and butter combo moves. DK's recovery is extremely lackluster, and while he can combo the life out of floaties as well as fast fallers, my Mewtwo never seems to have trouble with Donkey Kong. Even that matchup is quite volatile because DK can kill everyone so early, but it's quite easy to string HC upairs and fairs into an edgeguarding situation.

Some advice for Falcos... Not really sure because my Mewtwo takes DK down easily. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But if I had to guess, I'd say try to play more Puff-like in the sense of zoning and punishing. Keep a good distance and toss some lasers out if you're far enough. Laser hitstun will shut down all momentum, and if DK tries to armor through it with dash attack, you can punish easily.

 

[prem]

I played that matchup like aids and have gotten way better at it since then anyway. I have played against Thunderz so much since then and grinded out the matchup a lot. Like he still wins more often than not because hes better than me but I do not think Falco like easily beats DK anyway. He wins the matchup but its like way more even than everyone makes it out to be. Its too volatile and based on how the players play based to other dk bad matchups ause his punish game is way more bull**** on spacies than every other character which makes sense just thats how it is.

Stages, I just know FoD is DK's worst stage in our stage list. I pick ps2 because you want a lot of space to laser and counter his approaches, I want to die slightly later (you can live a dk fair at 110 from middl eof the stage thats what matters in life), and its just a natural stage choice for us. I have been debating for a while if I would take him to WW because its my favorite stage but I still dont know because he takes up so much space; if im playing well then its fine but obviously if im not it just siucks 10x more. You can actually just pick DL and delfino because you are trying to force him to approach more so than every other matchup ive played. And then I just like GHZ a lot as falco because DK actualyl dies so i will go there too. I always ban FD and smashville cause FD blows.

Basically in the matchup, you can CC shine nair and bair if they arent spaced well, else you just cc dtilt. You can shine oos the nair but not bair usually, but then if DK does late nair he can roll out before you get the shine. You have to be pretty precise about your shield pressure because he has upb oos and that will literally murder you. At least against thunderz you have to full hop triple laser or full hop bair to catch his full hop often because he likes to Full hop over lasers. You can never do weak aerials because DK is heavy as hell so you will get Naired out all the time. And your combo game is litearlly just Find a way to fsmash or dsmash him off stage at like 60 or 70 and then edge guard him which is relatively easy but DK still has a few options that people seem to think dont exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXU5skWqR6Q

The first game is all you should really look at for how the matchup is played. We both messed up pretty often but overall it was a respectable game. Game 2 and 3 i just stopped shooting lasers so obviously i got destroyed lol

 

[Mechaglacier]

Could someone give me more insight on the mew2-Falco MU?

 

[X Riptide X]

Falco can annoy the everliving hell out of -well, everyone- Mewtwo, but one thing is to try and stay away from very flat stages like PS2 or FD. Not only can Falco spam away (and spacies are known for being good on that kind of stage) Mewtwo loses a lot of his mobility and unpredictability without platforms. Battlefield is my personal favorite for Mewtwo against all but a few characters, and Dreamland is just a larger version of that; it does give Falco more space to camp, though. As for edge guards and punishes, this is where Mewtwo shines most. Edge guards are simple and easy; you shouldn't miss more than 1 out of every ten edge guard opportunities unless they're unsafe. When tech chasing, I've seen that Frozen has a nice tactic (though it isn't only good for tech chasing). Use HC nair for the hitstun, then get a grab in and Falco's stock is basically yours. Don't get stuck in shield, because most decent Falcos can keep up shield pressure very well. Try to bob and weave in and out of his range, and space him out.