Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
So recently, I've been thinking, why do us Olimar's ignore a decent chunk of our moveset? We have 3 tilts, a jab, and dash attack which are all, pretty much ignored as options or seen as extremely gimmicky...5 moves is a huge piece of our movelist. Recently I have started to successfully incorporate 4 of these 5 unnoticed Nolimar moves, Nolimar moves are good and are able to give Olimar a lot more option coverage in his moveset. The purpose of this thread is simple: Explore and discuss the untapped potential of Nolimar.
To start off, here is what I have been utilizing with nolimar's moves:
Jab: Jab (A,A) (3% - 15%)
First hit on: 4
Second hit on: 13
Ends on: 29
Look at the frame data for this move, it is our fastest move, PERIOD. The startup and endlag of this move is the quickest of all moves Olimar has. For comparison, let's look at Olimar's fastest, and IMO, best smash, Upsmash:
Up Smash(^^A)
*15-14-15-9-16
12-10-11-5-13
*Charged 21-19-21-12-22
Charged 16-14-15-9-18
Hits on: 8
Endson: 32
Can charge until: 68
Jab will come out 4 frames sooner, end 3 frames faster, and has TWO hits if you want it to. Now, this isn't generally impressive considering jab's range and the ability for the opponent to shield the second hit of jab after landing the first hit.
Why this move is actually amazing however is it's ability to cover options if Olimar whiffs or a smash. Let's pretend Olimar just dsmashed MK's shield, at full spacing, assuming no perfect shield, MK has enough time to run in and mix up Olimar with a dash grab / dash attack/ shield grab. Normally this is a 50-50, dash attack > pivot grab, shield grab > another smash. HOWEVER, what about Jab? Jab in this case would stop MK's dash attack, dash grab, and has a tendency to catch the MK user off guard so they often times won't time a shield grab correctly because they didn't see a smash. MK also has another option after shielding your Dsmash, he can roll into Olimar, normally, you can dsmash him for rolling, but it would be too slow to stop the grab / attack; JAB's second hit would punish MK for rolling. No other move in Olimar's arsenal would be fast enough with the right hitboxes to cover these options, the only other moves with this kinda of coverage would be evasive moves like rolls or spotdodges, all of which are easy to punish by reacting to.
Let's look at another scenario: You just threw out a Fsmash vs. ICs, they spotdodged it. You don't have a smash quick enough to prevent ICs from getting the grab, you are also near the ledge so you can't instant boost pivot grab, normally, your options are defensive: Spotdodge, roll, or throw out a smash in the hopes that ICs predicted a defensive option and tried to wait for it. Instead of any of those options, you throw out a jab, why? Jab is fast enough to stuff ICs before they can grab you and the second hitbox will often catch the AI controlled IC even if the player shields, giving you ample time to mash out of the CG.
The point I am trying to get across is, jab covers multiple options in situations that smashes or grabs won't, putting Olimar into less Mix-ups. Look at some of Nietono's matches, he uses jab A LOT, mostly for the jab2.
Next Nolimar move, dash attack:
Dash Attack ( >> >>A)
First hit on: 8
Second hit on: 16
Ends on: 45
(Ends on 34 if the attack misses)
This move is pretty much a worse version of Diddy's dash attack, and we can't use this move like Diddy's dash attack as a result. Before going on, it should be known that when using dash attack, Olimar's hurtbox is moved to be down and to the back corner of Olimar, meaning his front and top don't have a hurtbox. The allows Olimar's dash attack to BEAT MK's glide attack along with other glide attacks. This also means we can actually beat a lot of short ranged moves because we have the range advantage. This move also causes clashes very often that put olimar and his opponent at a jab 1 distance between eachother, which catches opponents off guard and plays into Olimar's fast smash / grab mixups.
The other big use for this move I have applied is juggling. When my opponent is too far away to upsmash, and too high up to grab, I may dash attack since it pops the opponent up nicely, ready for Olimar's standard juggling options. It also covers airdodges pretty well. If this move misses, I can generally end up behind the opponent, which is still a good position for Olimar normally.
Next move, Dtilt:
Down Tilt (vA) (2%-8%)
Hits on: 6
Ends on: 29
Description:
This move is weird, the uses are apparent, but seem fundamentally flawed in comparison to moves that have similar but better uses, it does have it's shining moments however.
It's a way for olimar to mess up the spacing for an opponent. I can't tell you why, but many times, vs. Marth in particular, I use dtilt just quick enough so that the movement forward lets me avoid a tippered fsmash, or spaced fair. It's weird, but the move allows olimar to barely outspace opponents because the inchworm animation moves him forward by a noticable amount.
I also use this as an approach move (!) Dtilt has a tendency to go under a lot of shorthopped aerials and the priority to clash with a lot of ground moves, so it generally causes the opponent to whiff an attack, and then dtilt puts the opponet above olimar for follow-ups, or at super low %s, it combos into jab since the opponent is still in the air when jab comes out.
The most under explored option for this move is it's effect on stopping pressure. A player in my area, named Ghost, is the one to figure this out: Olimar's Dtilt BEATS MK's dtilt. Don't ask me how, all I know is, it beat's MK's downtitlt. I actually haven't explored what else it can beat, but if MK is using perfectly spaced dtilt on Oli's shield, it's a good response to have and will probably be effective on other similar moves.
To be continued later...
Anyway, this thread is about the discussion practical uses for a department of Oli's moves which definitely have been underrated, and I look forward to any contribution or discussion to be had. I understand some people might come in here and say stuff like: "I have known for a long time you can use Oli's dtilt to beat MK's dtilt." Not everyone may know that kind of stuff and if we share all the information we have, the Olimar metagame will advance.
Disclaimer, sorry if the wording of my sentences is awkward / doesn't make sense, I wrote this at 1AM because I couldn't fall asleep ;_;
To start off, here is what I have been utilizing with nolimar's moves:
Jab: Jab (A,A) (3% - 15%)
First hit on: 4
Second hit on: 13
Ends on: 29
Look at the frame data for this move, it is our fastest move, PERIOD. The startup and endlag of this move is the quickest of all moves Olimar has. For comparison, let's look at Olimar's fastest, and IMO, best smash, Upsmash:
Up Smash(^^A)
*15-14-15-9-16
12-10-11-5-13
*Charged 21-19-21-12-22
Charged 16-14-15-9-18
Hits on: 8
Endson: 32
Can charge until: 68
Jab will come out 4 frames sooner, end 3 frames faster, and has TWO hits if you want it to. Now, this isn't generally impressive considering jab's range and the ability for the opponent to shield the second hit of jab after landing the first hit.
Why this move is actually amazing however is it's ability to cover options if Olimar whiffs or a smash. Let's pretend Olimar just dsmashed MK's shield, at full spacing, assuming no perfect shield, MK has enough time to run in and mix up Olimar with a dash grab / dash attack/ shield grab. Normally this is a 50-50, dash attack > pivot grab, shield grab > another smash. HOWEVER, what about Jab? Jab in this case would stop MK's dash attack, dash grab, and has a tendency to catch the MK user off guard so they often times won't time a shield grab correctly because they didn't see a smash. MK also has another option after shielding your Dsmash, he can roll into Olimar, normally, you can dsmash him for rolling, but it would be too slow to stop the grab / attack; JAB's second hit would punish MK for rolling. No other move in Olimar's arsenal would be fast enough with the right hitboxes to cover these options, the only other moves with this kinda of coverage would be evasive moves like rolls or spotdodges, all of which are easy to punish by reacting to.
Let's look at another scenario: You just threw out a Fsmash vs. ICs, they spotdodged it. You don't have a smash quick enough to prevent ICs from getting the grab, you are also near the ledge so you can't instant boost pivot grab, normally, your options are defensive: Spotdodge, roll, or throw out a smash in the hopes that ICs predicted a defensive option and tried to wait for it. Instead of any of those options, you throw out a jab, why? Jab is fast enough to stuff ICs before they can grab you and the second hitbox will often catch the AI controlled IC even if the player shields, giving you ample time to mash out of the CG.
The point I am trying to get across is, jab covers multiple options in situations that smashes or grabs won't, putting Olimar into less Mix-ups. Look at some of Nietono's matches, he uses jab A LOT, mostly for the jab2.
The jab is also amazing at punishing a spot dodge, since you can time the second hit perfectly
Next Nolimar move, dash attack:
Dash Attack ( >> >>A)
First hit on: 8
Second hit on: 16
Ends on: 45
(Ends on 34 if the attack misses)
This move is pretty much a worse version of Diddy's dash attack, and we can't use this move like Diddy's dash attack as a result. Before going on, it should be known that when using dash attack, Olimar's hurtbox is moved to be down and to the back corner of Olimar, meaning his front and top don't have a hurtbox. The allows Olimar's dash attack to BEAT MK's glide attack along with other glide attacks. This also means we can actually beat a lot of short ranged moves because we have the range advantage. This move also causes clashes very often that put olimar and his opponent at a jab 1 distance between eachother, which catches opponents off guard and plays into Olimar's fast smash / grab mixups.
The other big use for this move I have applied is juggling. When my opponent is too far away to upsmash, and too high up to grab, I may dash attack since it pops the opponent up nicely, ready for Olimar's standard juggling options. It also covers airdodges pretty well. If this move misses, I can generally end up behind the opponent, which is still a good position for Olimar normally.
Next move, Dtilt:
Down Tilt (vA) (2%-8%)
Hits on: 6
Ends on: 29
Description:
This move is weird, the uses are apparent, but seem fundamentally flawed in comparison to moves that have similar but better uses, it does have it's shining moments however.
It's a way for olimar to mess up the spacing for an opponent. I can't tell you why, but many times, vs. Marth in particular, I use dtilt just quick enough so that the movement forward lets me avoid a tippered fsmash, or spaced fair. It's weird, but the move allows olimar to barely outspace opponents because the inchworm animation moves him forward by a noticable amount.
I also use this as an approach move (!) Dtilt has a tendency to go under a lot of shorthopped aerials and the priority to clash with a lot of ground moves, so it generally causes the opponent to whiff an attack, and then dtilt puts the opponet above olimar for follow-ups, or at super low %s, it combos into jab since the opponent is still in the air when jab comes out.
The most under explored option for this move is it's effect on stopping pressure. A player in my area, named Ghost, is the one to figure this out: Olimar's Dtilt BEATS MK's dtilt. Don't ask me how, all I know is, it beat's MK's downtitlt. I actually haven't explored what else it can beat, but if MK is using perfectly spaced dtilt on Oli's shield, it's a good response to have and will probably be effective on other similar moves.
Uptilt:
Nair:
To be continued later...
Anyway, this thread is about the discussion practical uses for a department of Oli's moves which definitely have been underrated, and I look forward to any contribution or discussion to be had. I understand some people might come in here and say stuff like: "I have known for a long time you can use Oli's dtilt to beat MK's dtilt." Not everyone may know that kind of stuff and if we share all the information we have, the Olimar metagame will advance.
Disclaimer, sorry if the wording of my sentences is awkward / doesn't make sense, I wrote this at 1AM because I couldn't fall asleep ;_;
