Explain edge play like I'm a three year old, please.

[Meowser]

I'm putting this into the Bowser subforum, since he's what I consider my 'main' and I don't want to drop him, but he's the one (out of two and a half characters I play) who suffers the most from it. I've reached a point of depression and frustration at which I'm looking left and right for someone else to play, because it irks me so much. Small disclaimer, this is -not- about following them off the edge in an attempt to gimp. This is about what you do when you A) are hanging on the edge already or B) -they- are hanging on the edge, or approaching it from below already.

I can't into edge, bluntly put. I've lost so many games now, due to this issue, it's not even funny. Whenever a game flows in my general direction, I botch edge-situations repeatedly to the point where it costs me the win. Be it me dangling from that ledge or the enemy, it matters not. It seems that I pick the single wrong direction in 100% of all cases (not even exaggerating!) and get punished for whatever I do instantly. I'm more or less deciding right away and randomly by now, in hopes that it might throw the opponent off and doesn't give them enough time to set up a plan, to absolutely no avail - and I refuse to believe that people on my skill level can see the difference between me going for a jump, roll, attack or simple climb and get into position before I'm even on top of the platform. Likewise, when -they- are dangling, I can't. I think out of my 150 Glory 1on1s I've landed a single successful punish (poor Jigglypuff that got dropkicked at 30%), and in the vast majority of all cases my attempt to keep the dominant position of the current battle flow is utterly obliterated by them simply punishing whatever I'm trying to do. And if I do nothing, I'm in the defense yet again, because Bowser. Please, someone tell me which of my options in both situations is the least risky or the most likely to succeed depending on the opponents playstyle.

 

[Cassius.]

The first thing you need to take advantage of this:

If someone is hanging below the ledge, you need to get them off of the ledge. You can do this in two ways:

force a ledge trump -- this will cause them to respond in a number of ways, mainly either getting off of the ledge voluntarily before you grab the ledge, or being pushed off due to the trump. Depending on the situation, you can get a BAir on them, or opt to not hit them at all. The latter option will cause them to lose their ledge invincibiltiy upon grabbing the ledge again. If your opponent is aware of this, and decides to try to get back onstage to avoid that situation, then it is in your favor to protect the stage. Landing and being in the air is a huge hassle, so you should be able to get some good damage.

The old Brawl tactic of speed-hugging the ledge (doing a QCF/QCB motion) works wonders here, because it is the fastest way to get a successful ledge grab.

attack the ledge -- if they're just hanging there, use attacks that sweep below the ledge! dtilt, dsmash, etc.

when you condition your opponent to not hang on the ledge anymore and they decide to actually use ledge options, then this is where more traditional advice comes into play. I'll cover two options and then give you an interesting tactic that applies to all characters.

It is generally a good idea to stand a small distance from the ledge of the stage to prepare yourself to punish any ledge option on reaction in one of many ways. I mainly use DTilt or Pivot Grab (due to its range) near the ledge to catch any option that's not a jump (getup attack, normal getup + any shield option afterward, ledge roll). In this game, I find that it is a lot easier to react to ledge jumps properly, and since air dodging is quite limited AND puts your opponent airborne, it's very easy to take advantage of that option if your opponent does decide to do a ledge jump. You should NEVER let your opponent land for free in this game. You will be doing yourself a huge disservice if you do so.

With the normal ledge getup, between your opponent performing that option and then shielding, I think there are only two frames of vulnerability (someone can correct me on this, but the window is quite small). If you have the proper read on your opponent and know that they are going to do a normal ledge getup to take advantage of the invincibility, you can try to time a meaty USmash to force them to block or get the hit, although that's kind of risky. Doing a normal get-up is fine due to the invincibility, but it will not change the fact that your opponent is still cornered against a character with a VERY damaging command grab, a huge pivot grab, a pretty good OoS option that covers both sides, and massive kill power. There are only so many options that they can take, and you have to make the proper reads to get the damage. You have to condition your opponent or scare them into trying to get past you. Whether they decide to roll, jump, return to the ledge, or force their way through with attacks or a grab is dependent on the player and situation, of course.

Another option that people are starting to take advantage of as well with characters that have stronger throw options is rolling into to the ledge so that their body is facing the rest of the stage. This covers the ledge get-up attack option, since get-up attacks tend to put the opponent's body directly in front of you for a free punish. This sounds counter-intuitive, but they actually do go far enough to where you would be the one cornered on the stage. You can still opt to time a USmash since ours covers both sides, and you can still react to jumps properly and ledge rolls with this tactic.

So, there are a number of things you can try and experiment with. You have to see what works best for you and your style, but generally forcing a ledge trump and trying to get the kill in that fashion is the simplest thing I can recommend due to how easy it is and the situations it forces.

I hope this makes sense/helps lol

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

For clarification, an opponent is being aggressive when they aim to get-up-attack or ledge jump. Pull away aerials tend to be defensive in nature, ledge roll is about as passive as it gets, and ledge get-up is a mixup. Players will attempt aggression when they think they see a hole in their opponent's defenses, and they will respect their opponent if they can't determine an opening and are waiting to create one. Figuring out what your opponent is thinking (aggression or respect) will lead you to victory, but it takes experience. Just keep playing. Don't give up. Your body will absorb the information on its own.

Your opponent is on the ledge. You need to exert stage control. Here are the basic options:

• SH Fair. On stage, this covers certain get-up-attacks, ledge get-up, and ledge jump. You can retreat + auto cancel to help recover if you guessed poorly and the opponent rolls beneath you.
  
• Shield: This is your hard read, oh snaps they just tried to get-up-attack or pull away + aerial, middle finger. You can transition into Fortress if they try anything tricky and if they ledge jump, you can try to initiate USmash OoS. Also works against certain characters trying to pressure you from below the ledge and can transition into a roll for the next part.
• Dash Grab: Step away from the ledge and space yourself to punish the ledge get-up or ledge roll. Very useful. If you're already too close, you can execute more advanced variations with dash-back + pivot Ftilt, or dash-back + pivot grab. Switch it up depending on what's stale.

So now you're on the ledge, what do?

• Do not initiate your get-up-attack unless the opponent is trying to smash attack you and they're within range. As a general rule of thumb, your get-up-attack will interrupt an opponent's smash attack.
• Do not be afraid to just wait at the ledge to see what the opponent will do. If they get too close, you can pull away Fair or attempt a ledge jump. Pulling away into Fair will cover the ledge and help give you room should you decide to regrab the ledge or simply pull away and hop back up.
  
• Pulling away and hopping onto the ledge is a good way to place yourself in a position to avoid a dash grab (either by coming in with an aerial or landing first and jab 1 to hit confirm), but if an opponent is gonna let you get-up for free, there's very little reason not to. It puts you in the neutral position immediately, so it has its advantages.

Ah, yes, and ledge trump. Ledge trump tactics can and will lead to early victories or defeats just like run-off aerials. It's your call on whether you wish put trump options into practice. Personally, you should test your limits, as there is incredible value in converting your position on the ledge into an offensive option. That's where Cassius' information will help you shine.

 

[Meowser]

Welp, that's a lot of info. Thanks a bunch, you two. UltimaLuminaire pretty much typed it out in the exact format I hoped for, too. I think I'll leave trumping aside until I'm feeling confident in my ability to not mess up the simpler part of it, but I'll come back to the topic in time.

Two questions remain, one about trumping - isn't it crazy risky to give up the higher ground in the attempt to push them off the ledge? I mean, when they're hanging there, they're just one button press away from getting up the ledge, and reacting to an attempted trump should be reasonably easy unless there's some hyper-speed ledge grab tech I'm not aware of. I've never heard of

The old Brawl tactic of speed-hugging the ledge (doing a QCF/QCB motion)

though, I'm assuming that's a really fast thing then? Otherwise It'd seem like a rather easy way to reverse any ledge situation against our favor.

The second question is coming from something I observed in my duels. Sometimes people attack me when I do a neutral climb, forcing me to into shielding - which doesn't sound like a terrible thing given the OoS options at hand - but I can't really retaliate because their attack pushes me off the edge, forcing me to go airborn. In that scenario I usually either whiff fortress through the air since I tried to OoS the move and didn't expect to get pushed off, ending in helpless state, or I Fair, fall down past the ledge and into the inconvenient position where I have to ledge-grab without I-frames. Is there a way to predict these push-off scenarios other than learning the exact knockback-on-shield of every single move in the game or is this something I should expect to happen upon a shielded smash/tilt when I do the normal climb? Or am I remembering this wrong somehow and it only happens when standing at the very edge of the platform? On the other hand, what moves Bowser has can initiate this? I tried with Fsmash and Ftilt, to no avail but it seems crazy useful for gimping/guarding purposes.

 

[Jerodak]

With the normal ledge getup, between your opponent performing that option and then shielding, I think there are only two frames of vulnerability (someone can correct me on this, but the window is quite small)

Acorrding to this http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/v/3612694, some characters apparently have no vulnerability window on thier get up at all. One of the invulnerable frames carries over into the first frame of the action they are doing unless this just happens to be a visual glitch like the Falco custom side b thing but to be sure we could always just test it out. In that video it's shown that Diddy and Mario can subtract one frame of vulnerability from an action that they are doing.

 

[Zigsta]

Two more options haven't been brought up here:

-Grounded Bowser Bomb--when timed right, the first hit knocks the opponent off the ledge, and Bowser will grab the ledge on the way down. It's pretty unexpected by a lot of players, but I cannot recommend enough that you practice the spacing first.

-Short hop dair--covers getup attack and the simple getup (very popular in this game). If the opponent jumps to the stage and you space properly, this is an easy way to get a spike.

 

[Jerodak]

Dtilt* (not Dair, lol) is actually a solid bait at the ledge if you time it right, often when I use it near the ledge to hit the opponent in case I'm able to hit them out of ledge snap or maybe if their spacing is a little off, it's pretty common for the player to think i'm punishable and go for an instant ledge attack, which leads to upsmash OOS.

Likewise, when using a lagless Fair from the ledge, it's common for players to attempt to dash attack or throw out some other hitbox with the thought that I am punishable which leads to various punishes depending on the situation. Just look out for players that will just grab you anyway, or those who know how to hit you before you actually land. However, lagless Fair is a good substitue for ledge attack in situations where you don't need the I frames, because you can press forward immediately after, where a ledge attack usually just returns the situation to neutral, except you still have to get away from the edge of the stage.

Just be careful with how frequently you use both of these options.

 

[S_B]

Also, run off Bair for a stage spike will make you cackle like a madman every singe time...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Also, run off Bair for a stage spike will make you cackle like a madman every singe time...

That's a successful Dair runoff spike for me.

 

[S_B]

That's a successful Dair runoff spike for me.

I should start doing that more often, mainly because it clashes with most recoveries and knocks Bowser out of it, thus saving him, while either spiking the opponent or at least hitting them extremely hard.

 

[Big Sean]

What are you favorite options for a high jumping character, who choose to jump every time from the ledge? They feel harder to punish for some reason to me.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Big Sean still just SH Fair since you can catch them on the rise. If not, just hold my position on the ground to maintain stage control.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Big Sean SH Fair, or Full hop up air if they are just jumping, waiting and going for Bair if they are air dodge jumping. If they are using an attack while they jump, SH fair with proper spacing should win from the angle you're at already. Since jumping usually has less I frames, you can also try firebreath, which also lets you cover some other options as well.

 

[Zigsta]

What are you favorite options for a high jumping character, who choose to jump every time from the ledge? They feel harder to punish for some reason to me.

Shorthop dair. Space it right, and your opponent gets spiked.