Experimenting with 1.1 Damage

[Poel]

I guess, but a fresh match is "kind of" comeback. It's the opportunity to try again, at least. You're not totally locked out, even if the other side's reset too.



Oh, I hear ya.

See, I play WoW. I'll pause for a few moments to let the "OMFG NO WONDER YOU'RE SO DUMB KAISER, LOL" or "I feel sorry for you" in from whoever wants to. Done? K. Bear with me, this has a point.

Now, in being part of a hugely popular gaming community for several years, I've noticed something: every month when the new changes come in there's a massive ****storm and lots of little hearts are devoured by the faceless developers like little delicious candies.

And then about two weeks later everyone is either blissfully happy or at least satisfied and decent with life, the universe, and everything.

The purpose of this seemingly irrelevant anecdote is that I've learned gaming communities in just about any genre don't have the slightest effing clue what's good for them. Primarily because instead of the two years spent discussing, developing, and balancing a game isn't there for them that is for the devs. Instead, they've played for about a week and are already crying foul.

I hate being a bleeting lamb about social norms, so I am not saying "LOVE AND FEAR YOUR BRAWL, ALL WILL WORSHIP AND DESPAIR." Not at all. I 'm just saying "give it some time before you run out with a bunch of pitchforks and torches."

That is, don't fundamentally alter the game's options just to recreate a game you like better. Those options are to play around, period. Not to revert back to an old system. Now, theoretically you CAN, but that's your first idea, and you're not really giving it a chance.

Now, at the same time, I'm well aware and enthralled that you are allowed to play the game they way you want. I accept tournaments will limit certain things. As long as that's the will of the majority, I am cool with that.

However, it's instantly reverting the game's natural state that bugs me. 2 years of development went into more than just trophies, stickers, music, and a roster, it went into changing basic fundamentals that the developers thought were right that you're wholly ignoring. So in doing so, you trivialized all of the freaking delays in the first place. Yes, you. You did it. Every single last one of them. If they wanted to make Melee 2.0, we'd probably already have the **** game by now. The majority audience would be ****-pissed, but you guys would be in heaven.

That's why I'm peeved. This game took a long time because they were overhauling a new system that you haven't given a chance. Not because they wanted to stuff the last couple of characters in before putting it on shelves. I highly doubt that's why we waited extra months for this thing.

If you're still dissatisfied after a long, thorough, detailed playthrough, you're fully entitled to do that. But good lord, just WAIT before flipping out.

Not speaking directly to you in any of this, Superstarmario, since you already made it clear you're just playing for the sake of argument, and that's cool. I do that all the time. It's a wonderful way to learn things or just generally end up with an evolved perspective.

This is absolutely true. We don't know everything -- playing is the only way to understand the nuance of that system.
Only when we fully understand the normal mode can we then assess the full ramifications of damage/gravity/whatever adjustments on a match. You can't short circuit the hard work.

 

[SGX]

I support this thread.

The title is "Experimenting with 1.1 damage", not "1.1 damage is better and should be tourney standard"

Thank you.

Also, the reason melee took so long to become what it is today, is because at first it wasn't viewed as an ultra-competitive major league tournament type game.

We all (the "tourney***s") wanted Brawl to be, out of the box, that ultra competitive major league tournament type game to pick up where Melee left off. Not for it to actually BE Melee!

FYI, altering life settings in the Tekken and Soul Calibur communities was standard practice in a lot of areas. I don't know why everyone is throwing such a temper tantrum at me even suggesting that I prefer non-default settings.

I don't care WHAT settings I'm playing on, I'm still playing BRAWL not MELEE, and I understand that. There are so many other engine and character specific changes that you will never see until you actually play this game for yourself. To be honest, a lot of these changes are GOOD.

The only reason I suggested looking at damage 1.1, is from my little bit of tinkering with it, it seemed to make the matches somewhat faster paced, more tense, and overall more entertaining. The reason I made this thread in the first place was to say "hey, I'm finding playing on 1.1 dmg pretty enjoyable, does anyone else with the ability to test this find any glaring problems with it so far?"

At first I thought HG mode might have been pretty cool. However, I played with it more extensively and realized that a lot of characters are really gimped, thus I concluded that I didn't really want to bother with it any more.

 

[KaiserX]

Thank you.

Also, the reason melee took so long to become what it is today, is because at first it wasn't viewed as an ultra-competitive major league tournament type game.

We all (the "tourney***s") wanted Brawl to be, out of the box, that ultra competitive major league tournament type game to pick up where Melee left off. Not for it to actually BE Melee!

FYI, altering life settings in the Tekken and Soul Calibur communities was standard practice in a lot of areas. I don't know why everyone is throwing such a temper tantrum at me even suggesting that I prefer non-default settings.

I don't care WHAT settings I'm playing on, I'm still playing BRAWL not MELEE, and I understand that. There are so many other engine and character specific changes that you will never see until you actually play this game for yourself. To be honest, a lot of these changes are GOOD.

The only reason I suggested looking at damage 1.1, is from my little bit of tinkering with it, it seemed to make the matches somewhat faster paced, more tense, and overall more entertaining. The reason I made this thread in the first place was to say "hey, I'm finding playing on 1.1 dmg pretty enjoyable, does anyone else with the ability to test this find any glaring problems with it so far?"

At first I thought HG mode might have been pretty cool. However, I played with it more extensively and realized that a lot of characters are really gimped, thus I concluded that I didn't really want to bother with it any more.

It's not the suggestion, it's the implication. A lot of people were tooling with gravity as well, but they were sweet-spotting it right for where Melee was. So your suggestion about damage is just compounding the fears that people just want another Melee. That's all. No one is criticizing changing the game's settings, it's criticism that people are jumping on the "standard" bandwagon and trying to alter it purely to BE Melee so quickly.

So it's not your fault persay, it's just the implications the suggestion has in terms of what the community wants and what it says for Brawl and Brawl's future. You're totally allowed to do 1.1 damage, it's why it's there.

"Experimenting" is fine. It's just the reaction to it and some of what people want that annoys me. Like Dylan Tnga's initial reactions to Brawl. Go check Encyclopedia Dramatica for his entry. No, I'm not a /b/tard, it's relevant to this discussion. Go look.

Ok, fine, that place is scary. I'll just link the **** pic.

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Image:Dylan2.png

"DON'T CHANGE AN ALREADY PERFECT GAME." My fear right now is that everyone here is a bunch of Dylan Tngas, and that is what I'm annoyed by: don't perceive Melee as perfect, don't try to recreate Melee, just have fun, and actually try to have fun before saying "I'm not having fun" preemptively. You're being more of a killjoy than I ever could be, and that's my claim to fame, so quite frankly I'm insulted.

 

[Raptorbite]

these boards are getting flooded with attempts to "improve" the natural game. why not just play the normal setting for a month or three, get an early perspective on tiers and character abilities and THEN consider which game modifications might be benificial to competitive gameplay.

QFT

10charmander

 

[tutter]

FAILURE !
10 char

 

[Michael Blaine]

I support this thread.

The title is "Experimenting with 1.1 damage", not "1.1 damage is better and should be tourney standard"

My reputation is already horrible here so I might as well tell the truth.

The scrubs are just paranoid, as usual. They want everyone to play the same no matter what, and threads like these create implications that disturb them. Melee 2.0 is of course a pathetic argument, but since the board is infested with scrubs who agree, it seems more effective than it actually is.

 

[KaiserX]

My reputation is already horrible here so I might as well tell the truth.

The scrubs are just paranoid, as usual. They want everyone to play the same no matter what, and threads like these create implications that disturb them. Melee 2.0 is of course a pathetic argument, but since the board is infested with scrubs who agree, it seems more effective than it actually is.

Did anyone who wasn't a tournament elitist ever tell you that "scrub" is the most obnoxious end all way to label someone to be lower than you and instantly ignore everyone whose opinion differs from yours?

 

[WastingPenguins]

Did anyone who wasn't a tournament elitist ever tell you that "scrub" is the most obnoxious end all way to label someone to be lower than you and instantly ignore everyone whose opinion differs from yours?

While I agree, I think it's mostly in retaliation to the way these "scrubs" are spamming and derailing interesting threads with unnecessary flames and ultra-repetitive Melee 2.0 gag posts. That stuff ain't too much better.

 

[KaiserX]

While I agree, I think it's mostly in retaliation to the way these "scrubs" are spamming and derailing interesting threads with unnecessary flames and ultra-repetitive Melee 2.0 gag posts. That stuff ain't too much better.

If you're referring to me, I think I had a pretty decent argument and it's completely justified discussion.

That said, I still say the implications that everyone's trying to hit the "sweet spot" they already know is just pushing things in the opposite direction.

 

[twdfx]

No damage modifier will save the lackluster gameplay. It's too floaty any way you cut it, it's too forgiving, and no L canceling kills many characters that were viable in melee.

 

[SGX]

No damage modifier will save the lackluster gameplay. It's too floaty any way you cut it, it's too forgiving, and no L canceling kills many characters that were viable in melee.

Typically the slower/laggy characters have the best damage output, so 1.1 actually gives them a small buff if they can actually land hits.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Gameplay isn't lackluster just because it isn't Melee.

I don't see why people who have a problem with Brawl's gameplay can't just stick to Melee instead of trying to make Brawl like it.

I don't mind people playing how they want, but trying to make it the competitive norm annoys me.

 

[F@lc0-san]

Threads like these piss me off.

 

[twdfx]

I feel the gameplay is lackluster.

That is my opinion based on my experience playing the game. If you like how it is, then great for you, but I don't. I feel strongly that the gameplay has been dumbed down. Not because it isn't melee, but because it feels too plain and dry. This feeling is as a consequence of stuff like the floaty physics and no L canceling. I don't just dislike it because it's not melee.

 

[SeriousWB]

Was that a contradiction in your post twdfx? It's dumbed down because of floaty physics and no L cancelling (change sfrom melee), yet not because it's not melee? o_O

 

[jellis186]

Hey guys, look at the last few updates. We learned today we can switch from zzs to samus at any time. We also learned two days ago the properties of marth and ike's counter attacks. These are significant changes from melee. Give it some time, maybe nintendo will release more interesting information which will really change the game.

Also, those who are in support of the 1.1 dmg constantly use the argument that we are just "experimenting" and that no one is actually trying to make this into melee 2.0. To this there are two major problems

1) If you are going to experiment with adjusting game type, you can not simply test one area. You have to mess with all the settings from highest to lowest. That means, high gravity, low gravity, 1.1 and .9 dmg modifiers.

"But the point is to make the games faster/more balanced/deeper, and testing with .9x wont do that" -1.1 Supporters

2) Why are we trying to make it faster? Because that is the norm we have become used to after 7 years of melee. Without melee, there is no desire to make the games faster. It is our point of comparison. It is where we judge the game should be on a competitive scene.

To sum up, call a duck a duck, dont call it a goose.

Fine if you want to test with 1.1 dmg, good for you, but dont bull**** us saying you are not trying to make this more like melee.

 

[SGX]

twdfx: It doesn't matter what kind of complaints we have with the gameplay. If we don't like something, apparently it's because "it's not like melee"

=/

jellis: It's not just slow compared to melee, it's slow paced in GENERAL. I don't know about you, but yes, I have played many fighting games competitively. Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Tekken, Melty Blood, Guilty Gear.

Compared to Melee AND other fighters, Brawl almost feels.....relaxing to play. While some might argue this is a good thing, and it may be to a lot of people...there ARE people who only see Brawl as the "next big thing" in fighting game tournaments.

Hell, I HATED melee until I started playing 1v1 no items.

Brawl being so floaty and allowing insanely high KO%s makes it extremely forgiving for mistakes. This is great in a casual setting, because its less frustrating. However, in high level play, mistakes are supposed bite you in the ***.


And your point doesn't really make sense. So yes, many people have been playing melee for almost 7 years and have gotten quite good at it. Why would they now want the next game in the series to be considerably slower paced?

 

[F@lc0-san]

twdfx: It doesn't matter what kind of complaints we have with the gameplay. If we don't like something, apparently it's because "it's not like melee"

=/

Its true. Dont deny it, why else would you try to shift everything around to make it like Melee?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142507

Read this, thats all I needed to hear to make my worries for Brawl to fade away.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Thanks to the people for defending me ^_^

I continue thinking that 1,1 is going to make characters broken: have you seen the problems with tether recovery characters? In 1,1 is giong to be even FASTER...

 

[SGX]

Yeah, tether recovery being broken really sucks, and it's depressing that they didn't see something like this months ago in testing. We found it in a week.

I think this kind of shows how little the dev team actually cares about competitive Smash.

 

[F@lc0-san]

Yeah, tether recovery being broken really sucks, and it's depressing that they didn't see something like this months ago in testing. We found it in a week.

I think this kind of shows how little the dev team actually cares about competitive Smash.

Did you read what I posted? GA Wes and Azen LOVE the game, especially GA Wes who sees lots of potential in Brawl.


Hmmmm

GA Wes or some random named SGX...


Yeah...

 

[SGX]

That's great. I like the game too. I've been playing it non stop for about 3 days now.

I'm sure Azen and GA Wes have or will have complaints about it.

Just because they are having a good time with it, is it not ok for anyone else to have any sort of qualms with the game?

 

[VersatileBJN]

I really don't see how the gameplay is plain and dry with reverse aerials, reverse grabbing, foxtrotting, dash linking, the reduced damage mechanic, and all of that is in it.

The main problem people seem to be having is the absence of a lag cancel. You do realize 90% of fighting games don't have any way of making un safe moves safe right? You had to deal with it missed. I don't see how that is a bad thing, but rather a different thing. It's going to make people use their attacks more wisely.

But, to each his own. If the game is plain and dry at 1.0, however, I don't see how 1.1 is going to make that big of a difference. It's unfortunate if people feel the game has to be tamepred with to that extent to make it fun.

 

[VersatileBJN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ismX6iNNs_U

this just doesnt look very bland to me. though I haven't played it, I trust the opinions of players like azen, gimplyfish, leeharris, etc when they say the game is tight.

I respect the opinion of those who don't like it, but I don't like the idea of game tampering being the standard(1.1 and/or high gravity).

 

[WastingPenguins]

And your point doesn't really make sense. So yes, many people have been playing melee for almost 7 years and have gotten quite good at it. Why would they now want the next game in the series to be considerably slower paced?

While I don't condone the flamewar this thread has devolved into, this is one thing I've been thinking about for a while. For most of the people around this board, Melee is the perfect game. Now that Brawl is so very very different, of COURSE people are going to be upset. It's like telling a tennis player that now he's gotta play ping pong. Sure, high level ping pong is incredibly deep and competitive, but **** if that guy won't miss playing tennis.

 

[jellis186]

^Who is saying that melee is tennis and brawl is ping pong, why cant it be the other way around?

The only reason you are making that comparison is that you havent 7 years with one game and less than 10 days with another.