Experimenting with 1.1 Damage

[BlargCow]

I'd only use this if I want to record my matches because I probably wont be able to get under 3 minute matches with 3/4 stocks :/

 

[WastingPenguins]

What the holy hell is up with the idiotic flamewar in here? Seriously people.

Hypothetically speaking, if we found in the long run that Brawl were a better, more balanced, and more competitive game using certain game settings, why wouldn't we use them? The OP isn't suggesting that everyone play this way, or that tournaments should be played this way, he just thought it was interesting and now he's opening the forum to see what people think.

Not that I think this particular game setting will go anywhere, but I did think it was interesting as a point of discussion.

 

[Superstarmario]

Complaining about the way people play.

AGAIN.

It's getting as old as Chuck Norris jokes.

But yeah, Broken Ike = Epic fail for the mode.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Haha seriously. The next time someone I hear "Melee 2.0" I'm gonna drop kick someone in the face. News flash-- no one gives a **** if Brawl is like Melee. What we care about is that Brawl is deep, rewarding and competitive. If we found, now or a year from now, that a certain game mode provided an experience that is MORE deep, rewarding and competitive than the default settings then why in the world wouldn't people want to use it? If that hypothetical, likely nonexistent better mode made Brawl "more like Melee" by coincidence, who cares?

For the record, I DON'T think anything like changing damage ratios is the answer to anything, and I have no idea if the game needs tweaking in the first place since I obviously don't have it, but it doesn't hurt to experiment a bit.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

here a great idea, why dont we cross out the word melee on the disc and write brawl on it.
/sarcastic

 

[Superstarmario]

here a great idea, why dont we cross out the word melee on the disc and write brawl on it.

You tried. You failed.

And I've grown tired of the word "fail" on the interwebz anyway.

 

[Puffin]

Haha seriously. The next time someone I hear "Melee 2.0" I'm gonna drop kick someone in the face. News flash-- no one gives a **** if Brawl is like Melee. What we care about is that Brawl is deep, rewarding and competitive. If we found, now or a year from now, that a certain game mode provided an experience that is MORE deep, rewarding and competitive than the default settings then why in the world wouldn't people want to use it? If that hypothetical, likely nonexistent better mode made Brawl "more like Melee" by coincidence, who cares?

I was going to post this exactly. Except instead of dropkicking "someone", I was going to say "a puppy." Now, while I'm personally a cat person, do any of you "OMG YOU WAntz MEleE 2.0" things want this on your conscience?

Additionally, I really like the look of those videos. Edgeguarding actually doing something is nice. And I don't say that because I want Melee 2.0; that not only make it a deeper game, but it makes it a SMASH (not Melee) game.

 

[KaiserX]

It's not that you're changing the normal options that's the problem. That's not what the nay-sayers here are angry about.

You're not "tooling around " with the options, you're altering them with a VERY SPECIFIC agenda in mind. That's totally different from just playing around or altering things to see how they perform. You are trying to find the sweet spot to make it exactly like Melee and prevent learning a new game or simply doing jack diddly squat.

No one was trying to alter random crap in Melee to this extent when it first came out. You're only doing it now because you want a repeat of a game you're already good at.

Roll with the ****ing punches. Stop using "OMG THERE'S OPTIONS HERE FOR ME TO PLAY WITH" as an excuse for trying to just change back a very different game.

 

[WastingPenguins]

here a great idea, why dont we cross out the word melee on the disc and write brawl on it.

You rarely see someone fail this hard.

 

[Superstarmario]

It's not that you're changing the normal options that's the problem. That's not what the nay-sayers here are angry about.

You're not "tooling around " with the options, you're altering them with a VERY SPECIFIC agenda in mind. That's totally different from just playing around or altering things to see how they perform. You are trying to find the sweet spot to make it exactly like Melee and prevent learning a new game or simply doing jack diddly squat.

No one was trying to alter random crap in Melee to this extent when it first came out. You're only doing it now because you want a repeat of a game you're already good at.

Roll with the ****ing punches. Stop using "OMG THERE'S OPTIONS HERE FOR ME TO PLAY WITH" as an excuse for trying to just change back a very different game.

If it fixes a general gripe with the game, I don't see why not.

The agenda was to experiment with the complaint that Brawl matches take far too long. And hell, they do. Watching pro vids already, the matches are twice as long as Melee ones. Imagine tourneys like MLG with match SETS. It'd take a while.

Remember that the Brawl fanbase is just the Melee fanbase with a few more Wii sports loving Nintendo newbies. We're coming into uncharted terriotry playing this game like Melee, as people did with SSB64 to Melee.

In short: Calm the hell down.

 

[Kruton]

I didn't read anything in this thread.

I just want to say that you [thread creator] should stop trying to make this game 'better'.

You suck. kthxbai.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

i was being sarcastic you jerks

 

[KaiserX]

If it fixes a general gripe with the game, I don't see why not.

The agenda was to experiment with the complaint that Brawl matches take far too long. And hell, they do. Watching pro vids already, the matches are twice as long as Melee ones. Imagine tourneys like MLG with match SETS. It'd take a while.

Remember that the Brawl fanbase is just the Melee fanbase with a few more Wii sports loving Nintendo newbies. We're coming into uncharted terriotry playing this game like Melee, as people did with SSB64 to Melee.

In short: Calm the hell down.

So instead of changing back to Melee, how about you deal with the uncharted territory for a few more months at minimum before going into a whiny *****fest?

Oh noes, change! We don't like change!

STOP CHANGING THINGS.

SAKUUUURAAAAAIIIIII!

 

[SinisterLizard]

Try playing with characters like Pit and MK. It seems like they would have more of an advantage with 1.1 damage...

 

[Superstarmario]

So instead of changing back to Melee, how about you deal with the uncharted territory for a few more months at minimum before going into a whiny *****fest?

Oh noes, change! We don't like change!

STOP CHANGING THINGS.

SAKUUUURAAAAAIIIIII!

That's pretty much what I suggested. The theatrics weren't neccesary though. (As much as I enjoyed them)

 

[SinisterLizard]

Try playing with characters like Pit and MK. It seems like they would have more of an advantage with 1.1 damage...

So instead of changing back to Melee, how about you deal with the uncharted territory for a few more months at minimum before going into a whiny *****fest?

Oh noes, change! We don't like change!

STOP CHANGING THINGS.

SAKUUUURAAAAAIIIIII!

Yeah and play with items and play on the crappy stages, too...

Seriously, though. This is the first thing I thought after watching all of the first videos. They just last TOO long, and there was generally no strategy in keeping people off. That seems to be changing a little. But if the game is limited (with is default settings) where it's incredibly easy to recover at any time, then this might be a feasible alternative.

BY THE WAY...The kills on this game are slower than Melee AND 64. It isn't just making it like Melee...it's making it like it's been. What fun is it to only have the option to star KO?

 

[KaiserX]

That's pretty much what I suggested. The theatrics weren't neccesary though. (As much as I enjoyed them)

Sorry. That's just how I do things. >_>

Yeah and play with items and play on the crappy stages, too...

Seriously, though. This is the first thing I thought after watching all of the first videos. They just last TOO long, and there was generally no strategy in keeping people off. That seems to be changing a little. But if the game is limited (with is default settings) where it's incredibly easy to recover at any time, then this might be a feasible alternative.

BY THE WAY...The kills on this game are slower than Melee AND 64. It isn't just making it like Melee...it's making it like it's been. What fun is it to only have the option to star KO?

Staying in the game longer and NOT being eliminated quickly may be considered to many as "fun." Sure, the match is long, but you can change how to determine a winner if that's really a problem.

They did this so other characters have a chance to thrive by having decent recovery.

Is a longer match REALLY that much of a boner killer for you?

 

[VersatileBJN]

Yeah, I'm going to be very disappointed if the community accepts all these attempts at adjusting the game. I really don't see a problem with Brawl the way it is.

 

[Fluff]

@Heavyarms2050:
I laffed

 

[Nightcloud]

It's not that you're changing the normal options that's the problem. That's not what the nay-sayers here are angry about.

You're not "tooling around " with the options, you're altering them with a VERY SPECIFIC agenda in mind. That's totally different from just playing around or altering things to see how they perform. You are trying to find the sweet spot to make it exactly like Melee and prevent learning a new game or simply doing jack diddly squat.

No one was trying to alter random crap in Melee to this extent when it first came out. You're only doing it now because you want a repeat of a game you're already good at.

Roll with the ****ing punches. Stop using "OMG THERE'S OPTIONS HERE FOR ME TO PLAY WITH" as an excuse for trying to just change back a very different game.

EXACTLY!! Dude i totally agree with u man..half these ppl dont even have the game and have been complaning about it since day 1. Seriously I feel ppl are afraid of change.. i dont recall ppl trying to change the way melee was played either..but for some odd reason Brawl is about to come out.."oh i seen some vids on youtube" now i want to change the gameplay of brawl because it LOOKS like it takes longer to knock someone out. Ppl need to understand that BRAWL is a completely new game go ahead and drop kick as many PPL,puppies,cats, watever my agrument still stands regardless! BRAWL IS BRAWL NOT MELEE 2.0!

 

[Superstarmario]

Staying in the game longer and NOT being eliminated quickly may be considered to many as "fun." Sure, the match is long, but you can change how to determine a winner if that's really a problem.

Being in the game longer just means you'll spend more time getting yourself smacked in the air with Usmashes, just to float back down to the same fate. Unless the person Usmashing is Ike. With edgeguarding going all obsolete on us now and all.

They did this so other characters have a chance to thrive by having decent recovery.

Half the characters in this game have recoveries Melee characters would die for. Gliding, multijumps, and Luigi not being ***** in his reovery. Decent hardly describes recovery now. Most of them are broken. (Pit, Charizard, Meta, Snake, Luigi, Peachy)

Is a longer match REALLY that much of a boner killer for you?

Some people will be pissed by less stocks since it means less chances for a comeback. Some will be pissed that putting a match away will take forever if the system is left unchanged. I suppose we'll adapt somehow.

 

[Ban Heim]

Haha seriously. The next time someone I hear "Melee 2.0" I'm gonna drop kick someone in the face. News flash-- no one gives a **** if Brawl is like Melee. What we care about is that Brawl is deep, rewarding and competitive. If we found, now or a year from now, that a certain game mode provided an experience that is MORE deep, rewarding and competitive than the default settings then why in the world wouldn't people want to use it? If that hypothetical, likely nonexistent better mode made Brawl "more like Melee" by coincidence, who cares?

Oh noes! E-threats. Please don't drop kick me...

Whether you agree with me or not, people are trying to make this game like Melee before even giving it a chance. Half of the ****heads posting here haven't even played it and they're going "oh yeah, that sounds good." It's only been out for a week in Japan. People need to give the game time before they ***** about it. Melee wasn't half as deep as it is now even a year after release. You can't expect Brawl to hit that level after only a week.

If battles take too long, decrease the stock from 4 to 3. Seems like a much more logical thing to do than change the damage ratio or gravity.

KaiserX said it better than I could have. You people need to ****ing adjust, instead of trying to bring the game back to Melee-style gameplay.

 

[KaiserX]

With edgeguarding going all obsolete on us now and all.

Find a new tactic?

. Some will be pissed that putting a match away will take forever if the system is left unchanged. I suppose we'll adapt somehow.

Typically if I'm having fun, I don't want it to end. It's totally fun in tournaments just like you kids have always argued, right? Ok then. No problem then. No problem with it continuing for a long time. You're just having a BLAST, apparently!

 

[Superstarmario]

Find a new tactic?

Easier said than done? Do tell though, since SMASHSMASHSMASHSMASH works for a grand total of five characters.

Typically if I'm having fun, I don't want it to end. It's totally fun in tournaments just like you kids have always argued, right? Ok then. No problem then. No problem with it continuing for a long time. You're just having a BLAST, apparently!

Typically in a tournament setting, I'd hate to be fighting the same person for a half an hour.

LOL HEREZ AN IDEA, CAUSUAL FUNZ! ALL ITEMS 99 MINUTES! YEAH! BEST GAME EVER!

 

[SinisterLizard]

KaiserX, you always were and always will be an idiot.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Let me pose a hypothetical situation to you guys. Please bear with me because it's kind of weird, and please don't flame because I'm genuinely interested in what you guys would think.

Imagine that the Gamecube version of Smash Bros. had played exactly like Brawl-- all the same game properties down to the physics engine. Imagine that all the characters in this GC Smash game had played just like they do in Brawl, but only included the ones from the Melee roster of course. The catch-- this make-believe Gamecube Brawl had aerial lag-canceling and dash dancing. Now imagine that this Smash community thrived for seven years with a complex meta game and a highly competitive tournament scene.

Now imagine that when we finally got the Wii Smash Bros., it played just like the Melee we know and love... but WITHOUT lag-canceling in any form, and without functional dash dancing. Imagine that the "tourney" kids are having a cow about it, just as they are now. But everyone on Smash Boards kept telling them-- guys, this is a NEW game, it plays totally different. This is MELEE, not Brawl 2.0. I'm sure the game was just balanced to be played in a way without lag-cancel or dash dancing. Wait a few years, you'll see, the game will be just as complex and competitive as Brawl was on Gamecube.

Point: Do you think that this make believe Wii Melee, without l-canceling or dash dancing, would have fostered a deep competitive scene like the one we've had for these past years with our real-life Melee? Hopefully that wasn't too dumb and someone sees where I'm coming from.

 

[KaiserX]

KaiserX, you always were and always will be an idiot.

<3

LOL HEREZ AN IDEA, CAUSUAL FUNZ! ALL ITEMS 99 MINUTES! YEAH! BEST GAME EVER!

"You know what, forget you guys! I'm going to make my own argument! With ad hominem attacks! And strawmen! You know what? Forget the argument!"

Yeah, I didn't say that quote.

 

[Nightcloud]

Easier said than done? Do tell though, since SMASHSMASHSMASHSMASH works for a grand total of five characters.



Typically in a tournament setting, I'd hate to be fighting the same person for a half an hour.

LOL HEREZ AN IDEA, CAUSUAL FUNZ! ALL ITEMS 99 MINUTES! YEAH! BEST GAME EVER!

U might be exaggerating just a lil bit dont u think? i really doubt even with tourny rules in brawl a match takes half an hour =\

 

[Superstarmario]

"You know what, forget you guys! I'm going to make my own argument! With ad hominem attacks! And strawmen! You know what? Forget the argument!"

Yeah, I didn't say that quote.

You make devils advocate fun.

But you still didn't address the sentiment behind the exxageration.

 

[KaiserX]

U might be exaggerating just a lil bit dont u think? i really doubt even with tourny rules in brawl a match takes half an hour =\

Unnecessary exaggerations to strengthen one's position?

Impossible! No way that these guys would do anything that obnoxious.

But you still didn't address the sentiment behind the exxageration.

What are the rules behind your elimination? 3 stock? Timed? What?

Whatever it is, find me a video of someone playing the game behind those rules that takes 30 minutes.

Go for it. Go. Try and find one. That's my addressing to the exaggeration. That it's just that: "The sky is falling."

 

[Nightcloud]

Let me pose a hypothetical situation to you guys. Please bear with me because it's kind of weird, and please don't flame because I'm genuinely interested in what you guys would think.

Imagine that the Gamecube version of Smash Bros. had played exactly like Brawl-- all the same game properties down to the physics engine. Imagine that all the characters in this GC Smash game had played just like they do in Brawl, but only included the ones from the Melee roster of course. The catch-- this make-believe Gamecube Brawl had aerial lag-canceling and dash dancing. Now imagine that this Smash community thrived for seven years with a complex meta game and a highly competitive tournament scene.

Now imagine that when we finally got the Wii Smash Bros., it played just like the Melee we know and love... but WITHOUT lag-canceling in any form, and without functional dash dancing. Imagine that the "tourney" kids are having a cow about it, just as they are now. But everyone on Smash Boards kept telling them-- guys, this is a NEW game, it plays totally different. This is MELEE, not Brawl 2.0. I'm sure the game was just balanced to be played in a way without lag-cancel. Wait a few years, you'll see, the game will be just as complex and competitive as Brawl was on Gamecube.

Point: Do you think that this make believe Wii Melee, without l-canceling or dash dancing, would have fostered a deep competitive scene like the one we've had for these past years with our real-life Melee? Hopefully that wasn't too dumb and someone sees where I'm coming from.

WOW exteremely confuseing and hard to keep up. Too bad gamecube would never be able to handle that new gameplay engine and too bad we arent imagining things.

 

[Superstarmario]

U might be exaggerating just a lil bit dont u think? i really doubt even with tourny rules in brawl a match takes half an hour =\

Melee time matches in tourneys are 5-8 mins (methinks?). Unless someone is a staller or camper, the matches typically ends around 4-5.

Keep in mind that some tourneys (MLG) play rounds in BEST OF THREE SETS.

Edit: To save myself a post:

Unnecessary exaggerations to strengthen one's position?

Impossible! No way that these guys would do anything that obnoxious.

- Addressed

 

[Ban Heim]

Let me pose a hypothetical situation to you guys. Please bear with me because it's kind of weird, and please don't flame because I'm genuinely interested in what you guys would think.

Imagine that the Gamecube version of Smash Bros. had played exactly like Brawl-- all the same game properties down to the physics engine. Imagine that all the characters in this GC Smash game had played just like they do in Brawl, but only included the ones from the Melee roster of course. The catch-- this make-believe game had aerial lag-canceling and dash dancing. Now imagine that this Smash community thrived for seven years with a complex meta game and a highly competitive tournament scene.

Now imagine that when we finally got the Wii Smash Bros., it played just like the Melee we know and love... but WITHOUT lag-canceling in any form, and without functional dash dancing. Imagine that the "tourney" kids are having a cow about it, just as they are now. But everyone on Smash Boards kept telling them-- guys, this is a NEW game, it plays totally different. This is MELEE, not Brawl 2.0. I'm sure the game was just balanced to be played in a way without lag-cancel. Wait a few years, you'll see, the game will be just as complex and competitive as Brawl was on Gamecube.

Point: Do you think that this make believe Wii Melee, without l-canceling or dash dancing, would have fostered a deep competitive scene like the one we've had for these past years? Hopefully that wasn't too dumb and someone sees where I'm coming from.

Nobody's saying it'll be as competitive as Melee. Hell, it might not be a competitive game at all. The point is, it's only been out for a week. Like I mentioned before, with the exception of a few advanced techs, most ATs weren't discovered until months after release in Melee. The metagame changed dramatically throughout the years until all the ATs we use now were discovered. Why weren't people rushing to make Melee competitive? Well, the main reason is that SSB64 wasn't as big as Melee and since the SSB64 tourney scene was small in comparison, people didn't care about making it deep from the start. The same should be done for Brawl. Play around with it first. Get to know what the game has to offer.

Brawl isn't being given the chance to be a good game. For all we know, it could end up being deeper than Melee (unlikely IMO, since Melee's depth was somewhat of an accident, but you never know). We should try Brawl out with the regular settings, see what the game has to offer. If after a few months it looks like it can't be a competitive game on it's own, then we should start messing around with settings to make it cater to the tourney scene.

 

[KaiserX]

Melee time matches in tourneys are 5-8 mins (methinks?). Unless someone is a staller or camper, the matches typically ends around 4-5.

Keep in mind that some tourneys (MLG) play rounds in BEST OF THREE SETS.

IF it's really problematic, make it timed.

Sure, there's the question of "no comebacks!" but at the same time it removes the margin for error and therefore requires a top game.

The fact that it's best of three sets would go ahead and remove the concern of no comebacks anyway.

 

[Superstarmario]

IF it's really problematic, make it timed.

Sure, there's the question of "no comebacks!" but at the same time it removes the margin for error and therefore requires a top game.

The fact that it's best of three sets would go ahead and remove the concern of no comebacks anyway.

Tourney's are time AND stock. In best of three sets. To be fair.

No comebacks are kinda lame, since it gives an edge to campers, and stallers.

Truth be told, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, since I don't do tourney's that often anyway. But I can see from other's prospective a bit easier than people on this forum tend to with the whole "I love everything about Brawl and by god you better not disagree with me!"

 

[WastingPenguins]

WOW exteremely confuseing and hard to keep up. Too bad gamecube would never be able to handle that new gameplay engine and too bad we arent imagining things.

Ha well I tried to make it readable but let me just boil it down: If Melee hadn't had l-canceling the competitive scene would be nowhere near what it is today. I'm sorry if you don't agree with this but it is true. L-canceling boosts the combo potential, and generally competitive potential of that game by a factor of 10, no exaggeration. For that matter, it boosts the competitive potential of Smash 64 by a HUGE degree as well. A pretty compelling precedent has been set if you ask me.

While the changes in the Brawl engine may make up for the lack of lag-cancel, it is also possible that they don't. If Melee hadn't had it, that game would be a lot worse, i.e. shallower. Now Brawl doesn't have it-- some players are scared it will make the game a lot worse.

Of course I will be right here with all of you guys for a long time, playing the game and having fun no matter what, and we will find out. I'm just trying to give some perspective on why the competitive kids feel the way they do.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Nobody's saying it'll be as competitive as Melee. Hell, it might not be a competitive game at all. The point is, it's only been out for a week. Like I mentioned before, with the exception of a few advanced techs, most ATs weren't discovered until months after release in Melee. The metagame changed dramatically throughout the years until all the ATs we use now were discovered. Why weren't people rushing to make Melee competitive? Well, the main reason is that SSB64 wasn't as big as Melee and since the SSB64 tourney scene was small in comparison, people didn't care about making it deep from the start. The same should be done for Brawl. Play around with it first. Get to know what the game has to offer.

Brawl isn't being given the chance to be a good game. For all we know, it could end up being deeper than Melee (unlikely IMO, since Melee's depth was somewhat of an accident, but you never know). We should try Brawl out with the regular settings, see what the game has to offer. If after a few months it looks like it can't be a competitive game on it's own, then we should start messing around with settings to make it cater to the tourney scene.

Yes, I agree with you 100%. Thank you for taking some time and putting some thought into your post. I'm not condemning the game, and I'm not eager to change the settings or anything like that. In any case, I'll play the game and have tons of fun with it no matter how it compares to Melee. Hell, my friends and I just got off a 4-month kick of Dragon Ball Z Budokai and had a BLAST with that, and that's not exactly the deepest fighting game out there. But **** if it isn't fun, and that's pretty much what I expect from Brawl no matter how the competitive scene turns out.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

I support this thread.

The title is "Experimenting with 1.1 damage", not "1.1 damage is better and should be tourney standard"

 

[KaiserX]

Tourney's are time AND stock. In best of three sets. To be fair.

No comebacks are kinda lame, since it gives an edge to campers, and stallers.

I guess, but a fresh match is "kind of" comeback. It's the opportunity to try again, at least. You're not totally locked out, even if the other side's reset too.

Truth be told, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, since I don't do tourney's that often anyway. But I can see from other's prospective a bit easier than people on this forum tend to with the whole "I love everything about Brawl and by god you better not disagree with me!"

Oh, I hear ya.

See, I play WoW. I'll pause for a few moments to let the "OMFG NO WONDER YOU'RE SO DUMB KAISER, LOL" or "I feel sorry for you" in from whoever wants to. Done? K. Bear with me, this has a point.

Now, in being part of a hugely popular gaming community for several years, I've noticed something: every month when the new changes come in there's a massive ****storm and lots of little hearts are devoured by the faceless developers like little delicious candies.

And then about two weeks later everyone is either blissfully happy or at least satisfied and decent with life, the universe, and everything.

The purpose of this seemingly irrelevant anecdote is that I've learned gaming communities in just about any genre don't have the slightest effing clue what's good for them. Primarily because instead of the two years spent discussing, developing, and balancing a game isn't there for them that is for the devs. Instead, they've played for about a week and are already crying foul.

I hate being a bleeting lamb about social norms, so I am not saying "LOVE AND FEAR YOUR BRAWL, ALL WILL WORSHIP AND DESPAIR." Not at all. I 'm just saying "give it some time before you run out with a bunch of pitchforks and torches."

That is, don't fundamentally alter the game's options just to recreate a game you like better. Those options are to play around, period. Not to revert back to an old system. Now, theoretically you CAN, but that's your first idea, and you're not really giving it a chance.

Now, at the same time, I'm well aware and enthralled that you are allowed to play the game they way you want. I accept tournaments will limit certain things. As long as that's the will of the majority, I am cool with that.

However, it's instantly reverting the game's natural state that bugs me. 2 years of development went into more than just trophies, stickers, music, and a roster, it went into changing basic fundamentals that the developers thought were right that you're wholly ignoring. So in doing so, you trivialized all of the freaking delays in the first place. Yes, you. You did it. Every single last one of them. If they wanted to make Melee 2.0, we'd probably already have the **** game by now. The majority audience would be ****-pissed, but you guys would be in heaven.

That's why I'm peeved. This game took a long time because they were overhauling a new system that you haven't given a chance. Not because they wanted to stuff the last couple of characters in before putting it on shelves. I highly doubt that's why we waited extra months for this thing.

If you're still dissatisfied after a long, thorough, detailed playthrough, you're fully entitled to do that. But good lord, just WAIT before flipping out.

Not speaking directly to you in any of this, Superstarmario, since you already made it clear you're just playing for the sake of argument, and that's cool. I do that all the time. It's a wonderful way to learn things or just generally end up with an evolved perspective.

 

[Superstarmario]

I understand your point I suppose. But that's practically the reason he put "experimenting" as the thread title. Some people flip out preemptivley, but we managed to convert to melee which lacked Ness ****** everyone with DJC, so I guess we can handle this too.